Why Is It Hard To Change A Value On A Mod?

[KittyDarkling]

    Now please don't take this as complaining. I would really like a staff member to answer this seriously when they get a chance. This question's the root of a lot of complaining on the forums and I think an answer would help a lot of us understand why things take as long as they do.  I'm at this point quite sure DE knows about mods like:

 

-shocking touch

-dead eye

-all the pure status mods

-and several elemental mods that don't make sense.

 

    I'm sure the list goes on, but these are mods which I'm fairly sure the community as a whole agrees are in need of re-balancing. Or in mods like shocking touch's case a very simple buff to make it what everyone agrees it should be (the same as all the other elemental mods) These values should be little more then changing a number, and I would imagine if the code's organized, you wouldn't need a dedicated programmer to change it. Even if you did it would likely take all of 5 minutes.

 

    So my question is quite simply, "Why exactly does it take so long to change?"

 

                       Does it require much more work then we think?

                       Are the only people that can do it really -that- busy?

                       Is the process of green lighting a buff to a mod that complicated?

 

    Any details that could be provided would be greatly appreciated, and I hope this post isn't viewed as anything other then genuine curiosity. :x

[notionphil]

i'm guessing that Mod Balance 2.0 is planned, so they're probably holding 'known issues' for a single pass, so they can ensure they're all balanced to eachother.

[Kyte]

It's not hard, but Scott seems to take his sweet time doing it anyways. IMO he's overthinking it.

[Liminal]

Status mods can break stuff down (100% or close on too many weapons I guess). But others such as rifle physical damage mods and Shocking Touch should be balanced ASAP. Dead Eye as well.

Edited April 23, 2014 by The_Doc

[Babalenong]

mods are atm, extremely weird, like how rifle multishot only goes upto 90% while pistols can get 120%+60%, Shocking touch only goes to 60% while other melee elementals goes upto 90%, status chance mods goes upto 15-30%, but event status chance mods goes upto 60%, such is balance

Edited April 23, 2014 by Babalenong

[KittyDarkling]

mods are atm, extremely weird, like how rifle multishot only goes upto 90% while pistols can get 120%+60%, Shocking touch only goes to 60% while other melee elementals goes upto 90%, status chance mods goes upto 15-30%, but event status chance mods goes upto 60%, such is balance

 

    I think there's a large amount of old content and outdated decisions floating around ie shocking touch and status mods. They're all their original values from when the damage system was significantly different. I can understand the status mods taking a while, maybe they need time to figure out how much to buff them. Are we talking 70% or 100% well we'll have to test that out ect.. That makes sense to me, but mods like shocking touch seam like common sense (bump it up to 90%?). So I really wonder if there's more to it then just changing a number. Thus is why I asked the question.

[DoomFruit]

Status mods can break stuff down (100% or close on too many weapons I guess). But others such as rifle physical damage mods and Shocking Touch should be balanced ASAP. Dead Eye as well.

We already have direct upgrades to the status mods in-game - the Cicero and Tethra mods add more status chance and give you more damage for the same price. Hammer Shot is also a direct upgrade in terms of status chance (with a nice buff to crit damage also). There is absolutely no reason to use any of the dedicated status chance mods right now. Hell, I'd even stick ammo drum on my stuff in preference. At least that lets me spray a bit more.

 

Physical damage mods are also useless in general, but that's another matter.

[Ritchel]

they will change them eventually over time. chill mate.

[Liminal]

We already have direct upgrades to the status mods in-game - the Cicero and Tethra mods add more status chance and give you more damage for the same price. Hammer Shot is also a direct upgrade in terms of status chance (with a nice buff to crit damage also). There is absolutely no reason to use any of the dedicated status chance mods right now. Hell, I'd even stick ammo drum on my stuff in preference. At least that lets me spray a bit more.

Yes, I know, but all the status mods require tweaking. If you only buff the old ones you'll end up with a lot of weapons with extremely high proc chances, which I assume is not intended. Personally, I think they need to buff the old ones up to 70% and nerf the elemental ones significantly.

[AhziDahaka]

It would actually be a real benefit to the mod system if they significantly buffed the pure status mods and toned down the status on the Tethra/Cicero mods (especially since I imagine they plan to make fire and ice element/status combos eventually).

 

Actually, what would have me the most thrilled is a Damage 2.5 where they basically ax the idea of mods directly increasing damage by any significant amount (maybe a small flat amount to help weaker earlier-game weapons hold up longer compared to later-game weapons), elemental mods simply adding the damage type to a weapon's damage for multiplier purposes (with the extra cost of reducing damage until leveled up with no penalty at max rank), and only one element or combo element allowed on a weapon.  Multishot would either have to reduce raw damage or get canned entirely.

 

Basically, my pipe dream is to have no mods that are "mandatory".

[Liminal]

Basically, my pipe dream is to have no mods that are "mandatory".

Mine as well!

[CatPhoenix]

Personally, I would think the pure damage and multi-shot mods are the ones that have no purpose other than to grind them to max and that's it.  There is rare a time you would not want to use these mods and use these mods maxed out.  Once you have them, you're done and will have to always use them.  Kinda takes out the potential build variety knowing that you will have almost always two slots filled to get maximum damage.  

 

But, maybe that's just me.

[[DE]Drew]

...my pipe dream is to have no mods that are "mandatory".

 

This is definitely the ideal to strive for, but there are a lot of variables to consider. Even with a total rebalance, some mods will probably rise to the top and be considered "mandatory".

Cherry picking some mods to balance isn't very efficient because they will have to be looked at again when other mods are rebalanced. It is better to rebalance a large number of mods together, unless a mod is seriously disrupting gameplay.  

[Guest Shibboleet]

This is definitely the ideal to strive for, but there are a lot of variables to consider. Even with a total rebalance, some mods will probably rise to the top and be considered "mandatory".

Cherry picking some mods to balance isn't very efficient because they will have to be looked at again when other mods are rebalanced. It is better to rebalance a large number of mods together, unless a mod is seriously disrupting gameplay.  

 Mods + Frame abilities 2.0?

[Zeyez]

hornet strike and serration are mandatory, plus, at least, 2 elemental mods

magnum force and heavy caliber... no (except some unaffected/barely affected cases, like boltor prime, penta...)

Edited April 24, 2014 by Zeyez

[Pandoran_Stallion]

Why not another slot dedicated to base damage? Make it costless and R10, but make it applicable to all weapons from the start. It makes a good long-term investment while making leveling new weapons less of a pain. It also means that you no longer need multiple ranks of serration, and that a new slot is opened up for utility!

[Ttariel]

This is definitely the ideal to strive for, but there are a lot of variables to consider. Even with a total rebalance, some mods will probably rise to the top and be considered "mandatory".

Cherry picking some mods to balance isn't very efficient because they will have to be looked at again when other mods are rebalanced. It is better to rebalance a large number of mods together, unless a mod is seriously disrupting gameplay.  

OK ok i understand changes to mods like serration would be tricky, but we have element mods that only offer 60% damage for 11 points.

 

60%: 11 points

60%+status: 7 points

 

See what i mean ?

[DiabolusUrsus]

This is definitely the ideal to strive for, but there are a lot of variables to consider. Even with a total rebalance, some mods will probably rise to the top and be considered "mandatory".

Cherry picking some mods to balance isn't very efficient because they will have to be looked at again when other mods are rebalanced. It is better to rebalance a large number of mods together, unless a mod is seriously disrupting gameplay.  

If  you really are dead-set on "Overhaul 2.0" instead of implementing small tweaks on a weekly basis and giving the players time to respond, then I hope you can understand that you can go to "Overhaul 150.0" and still not be finished provided that your mods are what make weapons viable. If I can take from your response that you do favor non-mandatory mods, then you need to change mods so that they don't make weapons more powerful, and only make weapons function differently. 

Recoil reduction, punch-through, reload speed, fire rate, reload speed, ammo reserves, magazine capacity, and noise dampening are all prime examples of this. Some of them are considered "good," but none of them are considered "mandatory." There's room for things like spread reduction and projectile speed modifications here, as well. 

[KittyDarkling]

OK ok i understand changes to mods like serration would be tricky, but we have element mods that only offer 60% damage for 11 points.

 

60%: 11 points

60%+status: 7 points

 

See what i mean ?

 

    These mods are more to the point of what this post is about. Other mods like the base damage mods I can understand need a lot of thought put into them in order to fix, even more time likely.

[Monolake]

For some reason DE wants to have useless (I mean completely useless, Shocking touch is useful, but inferior) mods in the game, maybe to clutter the drop tables and to have a contrast with good mods. 

You know, like every RPG has crapload of junk drops that you just sell or don't even pick up. Because something has to drop, but you cant give good stuff all the time.

 

Im still giving out Serrations and Hornet strikes to new players for free btw, have like 20 left

Edited April 24, 2014 by Monolake

[victor_victory]

People tend to choose the most effective thing to do.You nerf the thing that is OP, people will just find another thing that is strong and mandatory.

I would say that sometime it's not developer who limit our choice but it is the player who limit the choice themselves for their own interest. 

When DE buff Dead eye, all the pure status mod etc. People will just complain that there are another mod that is underpower.

[Ketec]

some mods do not even need much balance checking.

 

Take for example:

Dead eye - 3 ranks 20% sniper damage

Rifle amp - 5 ranks 27% rifle damage (applies to snipers as well).

 

Clearly at a serious disadvantage in both mod points awarded and damage.

[Monolake]

This is definitely the ideal to strive for, but there are a lot of variables to consider. Even with a total rebalance, some mods will probably rise to the top and be considered "mandatory".

Cherry picking some mods to balance isn't very efficient because they will have to be looked at again when other mods are rebalanced. It is better to rebalance a large number of mods together, unless a mod is seriously disrupting gameplay.  

You can achieve it (and I don't say you should, but you can)  by making value situational instead of absolute.

Currently lots of mods - like physical damage rifle/shotgun mods -  don't have any value (outside of selling them for 200 plat to the game). 

New players getting no 'mandatory' gun mods is disrupting gameplay for them as they have no way to level weapons up, so why don't you at least make physical damage into 'beginner' mods with decent % (like melee mods havinf 90%)  and realistic drop chance from the beginner planets.

[NikolaiLev]

This is definitely the ideal to strive for, but there are a lot of variables to consider. Even with a total rebalance, some mods will probably rise to the top and be considered "mandatory".

Cherry picking some mods to balance isn't very efficient because they will have to be looked at again when other mods are rebalanced. It is better to rebalance a large number of mods together, unless a mod is seriously disrupting gameplay.  

 

It's not difficult to rework the modding system into one where an unmodded weapon is close to its most powerful.  You simply make all mods tradeoffs; ways to make your weapon more specialized.

 

A mod that increases your rate of fire slightly at the cost of damage, resulting in a net slight decrease in DPS while your ammo efficiency and recoil suffer dramatically.  Or a mod that does the opposite; increasing damage at a greater cost in rate of fire, thereby increasing ammo efficiency.

 

And what's more, the numbers need to be small.  At max rank, +20% damage and -30% rate of fire or so.

 

As for the topic question?  Well, it's not.  DE is just too scared to.  Not only that, they seem to think balance refinement isn't worth paying any attention to unless they can make a marketing push out of it.  It would be simple to nerf problem mods like +damage mods and fleeting expertise, buff lesser used ones like shocking touch, and so on.  It'd simply require a more aggressive (and involved) approach to balance.

 

If some gamer like me can figure out how to balance mods in his spare time, people who get paid to work on the game can do it too.  DE is able, just unwilling.  It'd be simple to assign or hire a person dedicated to balance design, but they don't deem it necessary because... well, good balance doesn't earn you platinum (in the short run, anyway).

 

Warframe's community itself doesn't help either.  Some people think that simply because it's a PvE game, balance is unnecessary.  I guess some people don't like having choices or variety in their game, because that's what balance is for.

Edited April 24, 2014 by NikolaiLev

[Ryme]

hornet strike and serration are mandatory

 

This.

 

There is NO weapon build that does not include Hornet Strike or Serration. This is not even an issue of preference, as they increase the base damage value of a weapon, which in turn increases the damage contributed by other "bonus" damage mods, making it universally beneficial to all possible configurations.

 

When a mod becomes that intrinsic to the function of an item, I feel that the mod should just be rolled into the innate stats of said item.

 

That said, they can't "just" change a mod on a whim, because that's how they end up having to give out Legendary Cores.