Should We Keep The Design Council Out Community Event?

[Wiegraf]

I would have to disagree with this. That is how it should be, but it's not how it is currently. And really, sounds and animations are a lot more to a game than fuzzy dice are to a car. They are rather important features. And throughout the game's lifespan, especially recently, the DC has been given authority over core game essentials, like frames, abilities, weapons, enemies, and names. Those are huge parts of the game left up to 'rich kids' to decide, with what feels like little oversight from DE. Honestly, I often question DE's judgement when it comes to what even makes it to the polls. 

 

The DC was only responsible for voting on the abilities of Nova and even then, it was a pick from a list of already established abilities, not made from the ground up by the DC. As for voting on frames, they've voted on the order for Warframes to come out, not which will. If anything, the DC had nothing to do with Zephyr coming out since it was inspired by a fan's concept. They voted on the priority of their release, not if they were ever going to be released.

 

The DC, at best, will vote to pick 3 out of 10 things based on looks and a short description but how those things works and their mechanics is never left in their hands. And as far as sound goes, there was a pick between 3-4 choices DE provided; no matter which would have been chosen, it would have replaced the default Infested Ancient sound that previously was in the game. Mechanically speaking, it was an aesthetic choice, not a mechanical one.

 

The DC's influence is often put into a hyperbole; they hardly have as much power as people tend to think they do.

Edited June 6, 2014 by Wiegraf

[RoboDoge]

I dont believe that community would choose any different than Founders. Being Founder doesnt make you any different that other players, and if majority of Founders did choose bad event, then majority of players will also choose that one.

[DirkDeadeye]

Leave design choices to aesthetics and maybe broader ideas of mechanics unless you're like notaphil or whomever he is the guy with the dumber ai thread. To whom ever. But it's quite clear that how this event was handled was kind of silly. I've been around as long as most if not all in the DC I spent as much money and ultimately it's going to impact the game when I do play it

Designing a unit form and mechanics and all is a terrible idea. First of all they're gonna change the hell out of it anyway. Secondly people who forked over money in the early days isn't saying much about their ability to objectively discuss art. Let alone game mechanics.

I was stunned that the DC finally had a say in something rather than a poll of..pick a through c. It's gonna be b even if you chose a well just make an amalgamation of the two :p

[Aggh]

Leave design choices to aesthetics and maybe broader ideas of mechanics unless you're like notaphil or whomever he is the guy with the dumber ai thread. To whom ever. But it's quite clear that how this event was handled was kind of silly. I've been around as long as most if not all in the DC I spent as much money and ultimately it's going to impact the game when I do play it

Designing a unit form and mechanics and all is a terrible idea. First of all they're gonna change the hell out of it anyway. Secondly people who forked over money in the early days isn't saying much about their ability to objectively discuss art. Let alone game mechanics.

I was stunned that the DC finally had a say in something rather than a poll of..pick a through c. It's gonna be b even if you chose a well just make an amalgamation of the two :p

That's why I like the idea of having initial rounds just be design council discussion, no poll.  If you're getting 13-400 votes on a poll but only have a handful of people actually discuss the submissions; cutting out the poll would get rid of lot of the uninformed decision making going on in these events. 

 

Make people actually discuss the submissions if they want to be a part of the decision making process.  People that can't be bothered to actually examine each submission and discuss its merits shouldn't have any input on what gets selected.  And in the end it probably wouldn't really increase the overall size of the discussion that would have to be gone over by DE.

Edited June 6, 2014 by Aggh

[Meganin]

First: off i just want to make clear that, in my opinion, the input from players in game designs should be minimal since the average player will want what he likes without realising that it will harm the overall experience. Game design is something complicated that requires a large understanding of the game as a whole not just the part that interests you. I take as an example minecraft wich strayed far from its original simplistic but fun original design with the updates that simply add stuff for the sake of adding stuff or because its something that the community wants, even knowing that a good part of said community didnt hit puberty yet.

Second: While paying money doesnt make anyone good at game design, it shows commitment to the game, at least as i see it, someone that spent a good ammount of money in an unfinished game is most likely to stick with it than someone that played the whole thing without spending a penny, its like investing in a starting company even when you know itll give you 0 in return, you wont be able to have your money back and you dont even know if itll last long, if that doesnt earn you a word in said company decisions i dont know what does.

Third: I do believe that DE didnt simply pick the prettiest design or the most elaborated concepts, but the ones that they saw that they would be able to balance and implement in the game no matter wich one the council picked, the council cant add anything that isnt pre approved by DE and its influence in the game overall design is minimal.

And finally, i do believe that even if the vote was open to the whole community, the outcome would be the same. The average player cares little to what is outside its tastes and a good looking design will always win over a well tought one.

Edited June 6, 2014 by Meganin

[RejectionOfFate]

Ain't that the truth.

Looking at you

'Antimatter Name Poll.'

[inthephonebox]

The DC was only responsible for voting on the abilities of Nova and even then, it was a pick from a list of already established abilities, not made from the ground up by the DC. As for voting on frames, they've voted on the order for Warframes to come out, not which will. If anything, the DC had nothing to do with Zephyr coming out since it was inspired by a fan's concept. They voted on the priority of their release, not if they were ever going to be released.

 

The DC, at best, will vote to pick 3 out of 10 things based on looks and a short description but how those things works and their mechanics is never left in their hands. And as far as sound goes, there was a pick between 3-4 choices DE provided; no matter which would have been chosen, it would have replaced the default Infested Ancient sound that previously was in the game. Mechanically speaking, it was an aesthetic choice, not a mechanical one.

 

The DC's influence is often put into a hyperbole; they hardly have as much power as people tend to think they do.

You make some good points, and I have a rebuttal for each. I'm glad you brought up Nova because I feel she exemplifies the half-baked feeling I get from DE and the DC. Nova was almost entirely DC designed. The pool of ability choices was created by player submitted ability concepts. Each player could suggest one ability for each of the four slots. DE looked them over and chose which the DC was able to vote on for each slot, but ultimately every ability was DC created. On top of that, by separating the polling by ability slot it allowed for abilities which didn't synchronize with each other. This was ultimately avoided and subsequently balanced by DE, though it took numerous attempts, but the possibility existed, and before balancing, around the time of her birth, she was quite a janky frame. Lets not forget that her overall concept was player created from the start, as was Nekros and Zephyr. You are correct in that the DC ultimately voted on which they wanted first, we got Nekros and Zephyr later despite them losing the contest, but that was not how it was presented. Much like the recent Enemies of the Tenno contest, we only know that the winners will be added. Though there are many other, and arguably better, concepts, we really can't know whether DE will add them later, making this a posthumous vote of priority. As it is now, and as Nova's creation was originally, the DC was given ground-up authority over the conceptualization, design, and choosing of major gameplay additions, with the potential loss of many other great ideas. It is true, DE has done an admirable job tweaking and balancing DC choices, but the DC has been given authority over "how those things works and their mechanics".

Finally, even aesthetic choices are major elements of game design. Gameplay and mechanics make up the core of the game, but all the aesthetic choices made in game design, from sound to model to animation, have a huge impact on the environment in which the core game takes place. I know several people, game critics included who would argue a games aesthetic value is worth more than its mechanics. I don't agree, but I understand why the argument could be made. Really, there isn't really an 'unimportant' aspect of game design. It all needs to come together cohesively to create a good game, something the DC's mere existence, and its seeming lack of oversight and direct interaction with the devs, threatens. 

[-Krux-]

hell naw. paid $250 to put my vote in, you ain't taking that from me.

[Venarge]

Srly. All we did was to vote what is added first... After the frame vote, all the other frames in the list have been added over time...

And most likely the same will happen with the not voted enemies of the latest contest . it´s just the question of who will be added first...

I simply cant understand all this  " Evil/STUPID DC" nonsense....

[Rakosta_Kai]

I don't think it matters...

The trend, so far, is that the DC polls on this stuff determines the order that the submissions get introduced into the game. Not necessarily what gets introduced at all.

 

The Open submission process that forum posters enter and vote on determines what gets voted on to get introduced first..

A good example of this is in the warframes... All but the earth frame has been added to the game, to date, even though it was the anti-matter frame that won the poll.

 

The simple fact of the matter is that DE needs to be adding every single enemy submission that made it up to the DC polling process. Warframe lacks diversification in their enemy design and the player submissions rectify that.

 

 

 

Were I a Developer at DE, I'd be starting a new contest for more Warframes (or at least themes), and a contest for Mission types.

As we need some new frames using some new dynamics and we desperately need new mission types.

[RahuHordika]

Srly. All we did was to vote what is added first... After the frame vote, all the other frames in the list have been added over time...

And most likely the same will happen with the not voted enemies of the latest contest . it´s just the question of who will be added first...

I simply cant understand all this  " Evil/STUPID DC" nonsense....

With 16 entries per faction I doubt it, DE did say some losing entries might make it in but this wasn't a guarantee.

And again, the whole Cargo MOA fiasco: A lot of players, and I mean a lot, have complained that compared to other factions the Corpus are weak and don't have much to counter the grineer. IMO the Corpus contest seemed the most balanced since most of the entries were either tanks or support which the Corpus badly needed, and I stress most because then there was the Cargo MOA, an ambiency unit that added absolutely nothing to the faction, in fact benefited the player rather than the faction and would only show up during a state that almost every player nowadays ignores.

While I am glad the council came to it's senses and didn't let the winning entry be wasted it was scary how far the Cargo MOA got. Mind you, in fact there were only a couple of supporting arguments regarding immersion in a sea of "OMG IT'S SO CUUUUUTE" and "I want that sled!" posts that favoured it.

[PookieNumnums]

we spent over a hunnid bones early on as an investment for the right to have such input on things like new content. how many of you anti founders even spend that kind of money at one time on wf?  its not that spending money makes anyone any better of a player or person but for people who didnt buy in to feel like they should be given the same privelages as those who did.. man..

 

life as a founder shouldnt be so ruff

[Aggh]

With 16 entries per faction I doubt it, DE did say some losing entries might make it in but this wasn't a guarantee.

And again, the whole Cargo MOA fiasco: A lot of players, and I mean a lot, have complained that compared to other factions the Corpus are weak and don't have much to counter the grineer. IMO the Corpus contest seemed the most balanced since most of the entries were either tanks or support which the Corpus badly needed, and I stress most because then there was the Cargo MOA, an ambiency unit that added absolutely nothing to the faction, in fact benefited the player rather than the faction and would only show up during a state that almost every player nowadays ignores.

While I am glad the council came to it's senses and didn't let the winning entry be wasted it was scary how far the Cargo MOA got. Mind you, in fact there were only a couple of supporting arguments regarding immersion in a sea of "OMG IT'S SO CUUUUUTE" and "I want that sled!" posts that favoured it.

99% of the reason the medic made it anywhere was because it was a female corpus unit.  It was by far one of the worst designs in the corpus submissions.  Mixing buffs+heals in the same unit is bad design.  Then people tried to say it was because corpus needed support.    Heals on a faction that has most of its units' health as shields is the most pointless thing ever.  To top it all over, they're the only faction that has a real support unit to begin with.

 

The cargo moa may have just added to the game's immersion , but it at least would have fit well into that role.

 

 

 

we spent over a hunnid bones early on as an investment for the right to have such input on things like new content. how many of you anti founders even spend that kind of money at one time on wf?  its not that spending money makes anyone any better of a player or person but for people who didnt buy in to feel like they should be given the same privelages as those who did.. man..

 

life as a founder shouldnt be so ruff

I've spent somewhere in the area of a couple hundred on the game.  I didn't upgrade to master because a clanmate showed me some posts from the DC that made me lose faith in humanity.  It didn't seem to be worth the money at the time and the ridiculous outcomes from most of the DC polls has pretty consistently confirmed that opinoin.

Edited June 6, 2014 by Aggh

[Venarge]

With 16 entries per faction I doubt it, DE did say some losing entries might make it in but this wasn't a guarantee.

I think 5 of every will be added at a later time.

Yeah, the moa thing was pretty ugly. But srly. I rather have people vote for something than all of community doing it, fighting all over the forums, making fake accounts to make one of them win. This democracy thing simply doesnt work.

[DirkDeadeye]

The 99% of the reason the medic made it anywhere was because it was a female corpus unit.  It was by far one of the worst designs in the corpus submissions.  Mixing buffs+heals in the same unit is bad design.  Then people tried to say it was because corpus needed support.    Heals on a faction that has most of its units' health as shields is the most pointless thing ever.  To top it all over, they're the only faction that has a real support unit to begin with.

 

The cargo moa may have just added to the game's immersion , but it at least would have fit well into that role.

 

 

 

I've spent somewhere in the area of a couple hundred on the game.  I didn't upgrade to master because a clanmate showed me some posts from the DC that made me lose faith in humanity.  It didn't seem to be worth the money at the time and the ridiculous outcomes from most of the DC polls has pretty consistently confirmed that opinoin.

Yeah same I didn't upgrade cause DCwas an absolute fiasco but I've put about 2-300 bucks into this game over the course of a year and some change.

[VoidWraith]

 

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

 

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

 

I don't usually use 'lol' but I am actually lol-ing. The DC is full of short fused morons. We are plenty...as you say it...crude. 

 

Yes, and I have also said:

 

 

Most of DC were from the founder's pack. Now that it is gone, DE Moderators or staff team, hand picks who ever made the most contribution to the forums/gaming community, get to be on the DC. How often they do this, I'm not sure.

 

 

The community wasn't that great to begin with anyway. Maybe during CBT? (I highly doubt it), but regardless, the community was never "new player friendly". I already expected it from these types of shooter games where you join lobbies (only instead it's called "mission sessions" or the "star charts" which is still typically the same to me).

It was very elitist and obnoxious.

We as a community (that's still ever growing), are very, as I have said it "crude" to eachother. Rarely do I find a thread/post inquiring about something, is it not met with a sarcastic response/unhelpful input/feedback (and queue the "It's the internet! Deal with it", probably accompanied by some meme/picture).

I don't have high hopes from this gaming community. But I will say this. If they take away the deciding/voting power of the DC (basically just giving DC members a fancy title with no deciding power) then there will be a lot of outrage and possibly/most likely those members wanting a refund in some shape/form, and I don't think DE wants to handle/deal with that issue.

Edited June 6, 2014 by VoidWraith

[RahuHordika]

I think 5 of every will be added at a later time.

Yeah, the moa thing was pretty ugly. But srly. I rather have people vote for something than all of community doing it, fighting all over the forums, making fake accounts to make one of them win. This democracy thing simply doesnt work.

And I agree to that, altough art focus and author fanboyism are still issues in these polls.

I mean, when it comes to something optional for us, such as a weapon or a warframe then I can live with that. But when we talk about a type of enemy we'll be encountering in regular gameplay that we will be forced to face eventually (unless you are willing to avoid a faction entirely) then that's a point of no, to that DE should make the picks for the concepts and ask for opinions and then make eliminations and changes based on the feedback, not literally see which one people fancy the most by a simple yes or no and make it a thing just like that.

To add a personal gripe, the infested had a wide array or tactical or just thematically interesting choices and the winner ended up being the Dead Space Brute with a mortar (reeeeeally don't like calling or author bias and I wish I didn't see it this way, but it was quite a coincidence it absolutely anihilated any other entry it was faced against). And while most grineer entries just seemed uninteresting to me it was sad to see that the winner in the faction where everybody complains about knockdown is essentially the L4D Hunter, whose focus was knock(lock)down.

Edited June 6, 2014 by RahuStalker

[Venarge]

And I agree to that, altough art focus and author fanboyism are still issues in these polls.

I mean, when it comes to something optional for us, such as a weapon or a warframe then I can live with that. But when we talk about a type of enemy we'll be encountering in regular gameplay that we will be forced to face eventually (unless you are willing to avoid a faction entirely) then that's a point of no, to that DE should make the picks for the concepts and ask for opinions and then make eliminations and changes based on the feedback, not literally see which one people fancy the most by a simple yes or no and make it a thing just like that.

To add a personal gripe, the infested had a wide array or tactical or just thematically interesting choices and the winner ended up being the Dead Space Brute with a mortar (reeeeeally don't like calling or author bias and I wish I didn't see it this was, but it was quite a coincidence it absolutely anihilated any other entry it was faced against). And while most grineer entries just seemed uninteresting to me it was sad to see that the winner in the faction where everybody complains about knockdown is essentially the L4D Hunter, with even more knock(lock)down.

I see your point there mate. But I think its rather a problem of DE giving away such power than making threads about how bad the DC is....

I understand that the winning choices arent what you actually desired. There have been so many cool entries. I simply hope that DE adds more of them later on to bring more diversity. And well. About the manic grineer. I have to say I love him. I get what you want to say about him stunlocking people to death. But if enough people are not happy with his attack pattern, DE would be the last ones to not change him to an more enjoyable enemy. =)

 

I simply think peopl should have faith in DE and what they are trying to do.

Since none of the enemies is actually out, I just sit and wait. And I really think everyone else should do the same ^^

Still, I completely see your point here

[inthephonebox]

I would like to clearly state that I'm not suggesting taking away voting power from the DC entirely, that would be an insult to all of us who did pay real money to get on it, but I feel like the DC simply needs more DE contact and oversight. Any little mistake DE makes is blown out of proportion when it comes to the DC. The Cargo Moa fiasco is a prime example. I don't want to derail the thread and cause a flame war, but the Cargo Moa, while an interesting idea, did not belong in the Enemies of the Tenno contest and its inclusion in the polling pool overshadowed a lot of other good concept. I will honestly admit that my concept was the first placed against the Cargo Moa and while my unit concept would have added a great deal of support and tactical threat to the Corpus it was completely ignored in favor of a puppy dog eye robot on a skateboard. I'll admit to being quite bitter. That mini rant aside, this is exactly the problem DE faces with the DC. I feel DE really needs to evaluate what makes it into the polls more, throw up a sandbox thread to get a feel of player reactions and allow for some debate and changes before even launching a poll. 

I have absolutely no problem with player designed content, we've seen so many great ideas between frames, weapons, and enemies, etc. But if DE wants to open its game design to the public, they really should interact with and oversee us more. 

[Dwagon]

I completely agree.

 

In my experience, the more individuals that are involved in the decision making process in the creative fields, the worse off the end product. Design coherence is inversely proportional to the amount of people that directly or indirectly influence the final vision. Worse is when it is influenced by people who might not have a firm grasp on the process or are unable to remove personal opinions from the mix.

 

We should be a well of ideas, but not in any way involved with final decisions that influence the direction of the game.

"Too many cooks in the kitchen."

 

It's why I'm not sure what I would do if I was (somehow) put on the DC.

 

I do create games in my spare time, but I do so from a dedicated vision and purpose.

Design by committee only works when the mass agrees to a unified creative vision, but seeing how we aren't a hive mind, it's pretty easy to see how often that works..

Edited June 6, 2014 by Dwagon

[Arlayn]

This is pretty much it. Either everyone or nobody votes, especially on crucial things like what happened with the enemy contest, where it should not be a thing a small group of people with their own opinions should decide.

problem with this is exactly this...

 

The final decision should be left with the Design council~

I say this due to the fact that there are many variables outside~

voting outside the Design Council can have its flaws~

there are users with Alt accounts that would mass vote if given the chance~

and those that would create Alt accounts just for that~

I hope you understand where I'm coming from~

We have to keep in DC because no one would spend alot of money on alt accounts just to vote, and are no longer able to as people can't join with money, and the new people are being picked out by DE. So it prevents the issue of alt account cheating.

 

Do you want people cheating on the vote? Do you support cheating?

[-SLX-J3tAc3]

...I feel DE really needs to evaluate what makes it into the polls more, throw up a sandbox thread to get a feel of player reactions and allow for some debate and changes before even launching a poll. 

I have absolutely no problem with player designed content, we've seen so many great ideas between frames, weapons, and enemies, etc. But if DE wants to open its game design to the public, they really should interact with and oversee us more. 

 

"Too many cooks in the kitchen."....

Design by committee only works when the mass agrees to a unified creative vision, but seeing how we aren't a hive mind, it's pretty easy to see how often that works..

 

Yep, I said all of this multiple times before. Player input is fine, but people cannot know what you want unless you tell them. You can only expect them to say things according to what they've seen and their own personal preferences - but they oftentimes cannot see the big picture, that's DE's job. A framework needs to be provided wherein people may operate - otherwise, you'll be going from one end of the spectrum to another. Fights break out, unhelpful posts are made, cartoons, the overused and tired form of a sarcastic reply/replies are chucked about at ideas, etc. because people will always conflict due to desires, backgrounds and mindsets. That's the whole of human history.

So, then, I ask, once more, what does Digital Extremes want? Yes, I use these forums and read what a small portion of the playerbase says, but I'm curious as to what Scott wants. I'd like to know how he would have designed these frames. No need for explanantion, just simply how he would set them up, can be either a single frame or multiple ones.

Edited June 6, 2014 by -SLX-J3tAc3

[RahuHordika]

We have to keep in DC because no one would spend alot of money on alt accounts just to vote, and are no longer able to as people can't join with money, and the new people are being picked out by DE. So it prevents the issue of alt account cheating.

The DC can still have proper imput in the game, is just that voting, DC or not, is a bad way to do it. Almos everyone will vote for their own personal taste and not for what they think will be better overall. I posted my gripes based on what I felt the factions needed and what the resutls were, others simply voted because they thought the entries were cool and that was it.

Like I said before, voting shouldn't be a thing on aspects that will be forced upon players such as enemy units. DE could have just made eliminations based on feedback on their picks, on the concepts they picked. Voting is a simple yes or no system that is much more flawed and is based on the individual opinion (not to mention other problems such as mindless bandwagoning and such). Does the DC need the interaction? Yes, but in such crude ways that yet are made to define crucial aspects? Then definitely no.

It's not about 'cheating', it's about giving the wrong people the wrong kind of raw power. Most of the DC members are founders, and there's no telling of how many of them are no different than the average player who plays and likes but doesn't give imput in a thoughtful way. Again, it's the wrong people being given the wrong kind of raw power.

Edited June 6, 2014 by RahuStalker

[Kartumterek]

Its fine the way it is now. The Design Council exists for a purpose

Every faction has a ruling class. On top of which DE is graciously allowing new blood into the Council, based on worth.

Can't have 45588863679984432 votes on everything or nothing will ever get done.

Trust in the Lotus and the Council

(Paid for by the ESW, the Exclusive Society of Warframe)

[Kartumterek]

In DC no one is ever contented. Too much nitpicking on stuff, too many conflicting opinions.

 

 

We have 3 female units who made it in the 16. The other two was the Saboteur and Conduit. Despite being female units they got eliminated from the competition early. How does the Aux being female be 99% of the reason why she made it to the final round? Make her male and he'll probably still make it that far because Corpus are badly in need of support units. But, they need a heavy unit as well (hence the Riot MOA takes the cake).

Corpus don't have any female troops because firstly they don't HAVE any troops to start with apart from robotic minions... they are civilians given guns and told to go run off and die. No formal training, no warrior code or mentality, nothing. Secondly from everything we have seen they operate like a cross of Amarr and Caldari from Eve Online. Very rigid and little tolerance for deviance. Their views do not have anything in common with ours; they are defined by their structure and behaviors just like everyone else

What would female Corpus bring to the table? They need to stick to mass production not developing a nonexistent warrior base amongst their populace