Pvp Conflicts Slightly Broken

[9tailboy]

So far I am having fun with the PvP conflicts, however I feel sad that even though this is a first time trial and it will definitely get better soon enough, I feel as if DE didn't really plan this out well, first off, new players going against high level players will be absolutely wrecked by the confusion of this game, and another thing is that its still like conclave, buggy and broken. The conflicts are pretty much anyone's game, get the most tanky warframe and equip it with the longest range weapon or AOE weapon there is, and you instantly win, and this conflicts with the new and old players, if we are doing this without conclave, we have to balance it somehow, my first complete PvP conflct we won by extermination, and nearly lost too. So my suggestions are I hope they add conclave or balance stats so players don't abuse power, and I hope they make PvP more interesting and not a regular conclave match with everyone using valkyr or orthos prime or a rhino/frost.

 

The most abused PvP equipments(warframes and weapons) used in this game.

-Warframes

1:Valkyr

2:Frost

3:Mag

 

-Weapons

1:Castanas

2:Orthos prime

3:Angstrum/ogris/penta

 

My suggestions to make it better:

1:Balance support-The ally spawns should be equal to how bad the team is having or how weak they are, I joined a match and unranked, level 35 heavy gunners with rhinos everywhere

2:Weapon banns and risks-Its no fun to see players be nooby and bring out the most trolly weapons and warfames into this, makes the game too easy, so I suggest that balance support makes it harder on them, for the sake of peace.

3:Easy progression, just one time I just joined a game and the moment I did, instant loss, I was mad at that time, so I suggest that players who decide to join a PvP conflict join a game that starts in within 3 minutes.

4(personal suggestion): Warframe PvP conflict tutorials, I don't think we ever got a clue on how to play this conflict other than kill for the defenders, I haven't starting playing on the attacker side yet, but it seems to be easier since we lost a lot on the defenders, still need a tutorial in the codex or a warframe video on it.

 

I can tell that conflicts will be really fun in the near future where everyone is bringing out huge rooms and areas, it would be epic to see this coming, and I hope for some epic and long battles. :D

 

Please reply on what you guys use for conflicts and conclave, so we can analyze and report on the best PvP stuff.

[[DE]Rebecca]

Moved to the proper Feedback Section.

[-Vane-]

My opinion is : Conclave rank is broken, not the PvP itself.

[Rakshal]

Nice suggestions, but from my experience with playing as Valkyr in DS PVP is that she can't use Hysteria, so she is pretty fair. Though this wouldn't be the first time I'm wrong.

[Brahmastra]

Ash / Rhino

DNikana

don't forget those 3.

[9tailboy]

Ash / Rhino

DNikana

don't forget those 3.

O yea I use ash and dragon nikana and it deals pretty good damage, the problem is if they have higher shields than health, chance is you are gonna lose.

[AZAG0TH]

I just hope DE doesn't start "balancing" for pvp.. it's a path that only leads to cookie-cutter classes where the only difference in skills are the colors of the pixels.

 

I've seen it happen in other games and would hate to see DE cater to the "Rhino is OP", "Nerf this, Nerf that!", "My support Warframe can't stand toe to toe against Valkyr!"  Crowd.

[spacedkadet]

I cant even get in the game. I get no opponent found then it goes to "please wait" and i have to alt f4 out.

every

time.

[7grims]

For the first time I enjoyed rails conflicts.

 

But now most equipment seems unbalanced or useless.

And there are too much bugs and no lag-free session going on.

Had fun, although din't get at all what was the mission objective, except for kill all enemies and players.

 

 

Also was wondering how bad loki is on this things, decoys don't fool enemy players, invisibility isn't quite invisible, and radial disarm does nothing.

Edited July 22, 2014 by 7grims

[9tailboy]

I just hope DE doesn't start "balancing" for pvp.. it's a path that only leads to cookie-cutter classes where the only difference in skills are the colors of the pixels.

 

I've seen it happen in other games and would hate to see DE cater to the "Rhino is OP", "Nerf this, Nerf that!", "My support Warframe can't stand toe to toe against Valkyr!"  Crowd.

Well rhino is an overused class in warframe and is used a lot, people tend to overestimate its power, but I feel that every single warframe has at least 1 debuff or buff in this game, ash, trinity, oberon, valkyr, volt(lots of fixes), nova, banshee, nekros, loki, mag, etc. Yet rhino has stayed the same from the very start, and with its prime version, I don't think we are ever gonna get a nerf for rhino, it would rage a lot of people, although this could at least give people some idea to use something else, I used to use rhino a lot, until I got bored and decided he would make the game too easy.

[Pendragon1951]

If this is how PVP is gonna be it reminds me why I never liked PVP, too many deaths equals no fun lol, IMHO of course:)

[Pbrandon1]

Vauban with his little zap traps are op. Just set them up on the proper objective positions and you get downed before you are able to expose the core or hack the barriers, it's insane.

 

Also, the attackers need more reinforcements for the amount of objectives we have to do.

[Luffy490]

Don't forget Vauban. He can LITERALLY spam his Tesla grenades and create a big kill zone. I've seen Rhinos w/Iron Skin fall to the many shocks.

[Orcot]

An issue I've found with the DS PvP are the bots, at later stages the become extremely OP, earlier today I was on a winning team and non of the opposing players came close to matching the stregnth of one Heavy Grineer, it was mostly a fair match with competent players on both sides but both teams were getting wrecked by Heavies.

 

Another issue is that their is currently no tutorial/guide as to how the new Sector PvP works and no proper indication as to how or why certain mods are being unlocked.

[Fraank]

things i saw/did in the first few runs:

-some people have no idea what they have to do

-stand next to a spawnpoint and spam abilities like miasma

-stand next to the enemy spawnpoint and spam frost globes and do spawnkills with teammates

-you have friends and want to play with them in a team? not possible.(matchmaking bug)

-valkyr/mirage/frost/etc. are overpowered

-mirage with penta/ogris/whatever is a one hit wonder.

-valkyr is invincible

-frost can place globes over enemy spawnpoints

-how? do i get the mods? how RNG is it?

-laggy hosts are annoying. and there are wooden hosts everywhere :(

-if there are no enemies you cant play a mission

-i saw a few specters. they were overpowered too

-if there is a text message like " No opponent found".you ll get a "please wait" bug and you can press Alt + F4

 

mission completed => "the connection to the host has been lost..." => no credits!  4 times in a row!

 

 

there should be an option to play a non PvP mission.

I hate wooden hosts. maybe it would be more fun if there were none of them.

Actually i dont like PvP at all, will there be a PvE mode soon?

[NightmareT12]

I believe DE can tweak certain things for only PVP. Wasn't that done with Quick Thinking on Conclaves already?

[Shehriazad]

The only thing really broken is that pvp is player hosted.... this should not be a thing.

[9tailboy]

Vauban with his little zap traps are op. Just set them up on the proper objective positions and you get downed before you are able to expose the core or hack the barriers, it's insane.

 

Also, the attackers need more reinforcements for the amount of objectives we have to do.

 

Don't forget Vauban. He can LITERALLY spam his Tesla grenades and create a big kill zone. I've seen Rhinos w/Iron Skin fall to the many shocks.

Yea I know that Vauban is pretty OP when he has energy, problem is, you constantly have to level up in order for vauban's skills to constantly be of use, otherwise, hes just a squishy one time wonder.

 

An issue I've found with the DS PvP are the bots, at later stages the become extremely OP, earlier today I was on a winning team and non of the opposing players came close to matching the stregnth of one Heavy Grineer, it was mostly a fair match with competent players on both sides but both teams were getting wrecked by Heavies.

 

Another issue is that their is currently no tutorial/guide as to how the new Sector PvP works and no proper indication as to how or why certain mods are being unlocked.

This is what I have explained in my post, bots are unbalanced to levels, and no tutorials.

 

The only thing really broken is that pvp is player hosted.... this should not be a thing.

Yea, I heard there is only 1 host for 8 players.

[Slub77]

 

A PVP game type in a game where every character is meant to excel at a role and make the player feel as if they can take on the world single handedly, is obviously going to have a few issues when it comes to balancing. The issue lies in the scale of the opponent, and I know this was attempted to be addressed with the system relying on the conclave rating you had, however that in it self doesn't solve the issue fully.

 

I think a fun way PVP can do is through looking at the different aspects of Warframe and separating them in to different playable modes. For example, if we had a PVP mission type in which players took turns defending a Cryo-pod from waves + Other players, than the viability for Warframe participation would be heavily limited. Alternative, a mode that focused on movement through an obstacle course, would less likely see he usage of those tankier sustain frames such as Frost and Rhino.

 

I feel for PVP to be viable in Warframe we should allow players to compete against what they feel them self skilled at. Players who praise them self on being able to hold down a location against high level enemies, players who like to speed run areas, collect treasure, amass mass destruction, or players who simply like playing with the utilities some frames have to offer. 

 

I believe game modes that take advantage of these aspects would offer far more variety and require less work on trying to balance the frames them self to such a degree, as well as give players more variety and, if needed add to the narrative Warframe is beginning to push. This could be perceived within the universe as Tenno testing there skills amongst each other and improving upon reflection of others. 

 

A list of a few possible game modes:

 

1. Preserve 

This game mode requires players to defend an objective, which is located on a random tileset that supports defence missions. The idea being this is a hologram and not the actual location. 

 

Players will play a best of two games, in which the team that scores the highest amount of sustained time against oin-coming waves, and players wins. The defending team have shorter re-spawn times to make up for the on-coming barrage of damage, compared to the attacking team who suffer temporary penalties for dieing.

 

 Possible additions to this could be the adding of Nightmare Mode aspects for the attacking team.

 

2. Conquer 

Like the previous, this focuses on interception mission types, where the primary goal is the same as the normal gamemode. Players would likely focus mobility and high DPS, alternatively may choose to also try and maintain sustain to keep an area locked down. It will be interesting to see what can be made of this, I belive with smart level design this could be made in to something enjoyable for both teams, as it would make players focus more on specfic mod set ups rather than pure DPS

 

3. Capture

This game mode plays more akin to a capture the flag type mode, with teams attempting to capture another players objective. A popular combination for this mode would like be a Nova and rhino for fast movement and capture, so perhaps to try and balance this out players could have (Similar to the void lasers) timed shields around there base that nullify the opposing teams abilities, acting as a semi-solid structure. (Aka Nova's Portal would dead-end when it hits it)

4. Mobility 

This mode would force players to race to an objective, however rather than a straight shot race, the mode would have teams elect a player to race the obstacle course, while the other members would be at the next section preparing defences to attempt to slow the opposing team. Frames such as Vaubon, hydroid and such with abaitites that effect movement would likely be popular. To prevent unfair play, when an racer is killed, they come back with temepoeray invulnerability allowing them to progress, but still likely behind. 

 

 

 

 

I look forward to the replies and interaction of this idea, not specifically the game modes them self but the concept as well.

 

 

Samuel Gilbert

International game & Design NHTV Student.  

 

[sirwarriant12]

They just need to balance for PVE and PVP seperate.

[Pbrandon1]

Yea I know that Vauban is pretty OP when he has energy, problem is, you constantly have to level up in order for vauban's skills to constantly be of use, otherwise, hes just a squishy one time wonder.

 

This is what I have explained in my post, bots are unbalanced to levels, and no tutorials.

 

Yea, I heard there is only 1 host for 8 players.

Vauban's first ability requires no leveling up, just energy and that energy is low. With enough energy, he can lock down an objective with a ton of tesla grenades, have a duration mod next when you level up and strength, it is just futile to try and attempt to get to the objective.

 

Plus, you really don't need all of his abilities to be useful, his first seems to that by itself.

[MrMacaroli]

They just need to balance for PVE and PVP seperate.

 

I agree with this here. Not hard, we just need everything to stop one-shotting one another and slow the pace down-- which won't happen with weapon and ability values as high as they are.

[DiabolusUrsus]

This is why so many people are against the concept of any sort of PVP focus in Warframe. There are so many abilities that have no effective counters, and it's not practical to just nerf them to make them bearable. PVP isn't something where you can expect things to just sort of fall into place, and it's going to demand a lot more urgent attention when it comes to balance over PVE. I haven't done any Rail Conflicts post U14, because this is more or less what I expected. Lots of difficult-to-kill one-shot-kill-toting players engaged in a game of "who makes the first mistake?" 

 

I see some people saying that PVE balance and PVP balance need to be separate, but I don't think that's the case. The biggest problem I can see right now is that players have no readily available counters to CC attacks, and the time-to-kill can get too low. Implementing some sort of knockdown/cc recovery mechanic would benefit PVE as well as PVP, and applying appropriate nerfs across the board and raising the TTK sufficiently will make it so that fewer weapons outclass others by such a large margin. Of course, this means that enemy health values are going to need adjustment as well for the players' lowered damage output. 

 

I'm also going to suggest that DE starts seriously considering modifying Bleed and Toxic damage so that they do not instantly bypass shields. Still allow them to bypass shields, but make them rely on procs to do so and have the procs function on a resistance overload system. Take too much poison damage in a short period of time, and you'll be poisoned. Manage to protect yourself (dodging, blocking, taking cover) and you start to recover before you are poisoned and take shield-bypassing damage. Same thing with bleed. More balanced for PVP. More reasonable for PVE. 

 

You said balance passes could wait until after U14. It's after U14. I know you guys have some bugfixing to do, but I want to remind you guys of the need for balance before you try to move on to the next newest and greatest addition to the game. 

 

Edit for absolute clarity: 

When I say PVE/PVP balance don't need to be separate, I mean that you don't need to create to separate sets of stats for say, a Braton. Create one set of stats. If you want to keep the super-low TTK for PVE, just make the enemies comparatively weaker than they are now. An Ogris that deals 500 damage against an enemy with 1,000 health is gonna be the same as an Ogris dealing 8,000 damage against an enemy with 16,000 health. The difference being the 500 damage Ogris is less likely to one-shot a hostile Warframe. 

 

Create ONE SET of stats that is balanced against other players. Balance PVE enemies accordingly. 

Edited July 22, 2014 by DiabolusUrsus

[Pbrandon1]

This is why so many people are against the concept of any sort of PVP focus in Warframe. There are so many abilities that have no effective counters, and it's not practical to just nerf them to make them bearable. PVP isn't something where you can expect things to just sort of fall into place, and it's going to demand a lot more urgent attention when it comes to balance over PVE. I haven't done any Rail Conflicts post U14, because this is more or less what I expected. Lots of difficult-to-kill one-shot-kill-toting players engaged in a game of "who makes the first mistake?" 

 

I see some people saying that PVE balance and PVP balance need to be separate, but I don't think that's the case. The biggest problem I can see right now is that players have no readily available counters to CC attacks, and the time-to-kill can get too low. Implementing some sort of knockdown/cc recovery mechanic would benefit PVE as well as PVP, and applying appropriate nerfs across the board and raising the TTK sufficiently will make it so that fewer weapons outclass others by such a large margin. Of course, this means that enemy health values are going to need adjustment as well for the players' lowered damage output. 

 

I'm also going to suggest that DE starts seriously considering modifying Bleed and Toxic damage so that they do not instantly bypass shields. Still allow them to bypass shields, but make them rely on procs to do so and have the procs function on a resistance overload system. Take too much poison damage in a short period of time, and you'll be poisoned. Manage to protect yourself (dodging, blocking, taking cover) and you start to recover before you are poisoned and take shield-bypassing damage. Same thing with bleed. More balanced for PVP. More reasonable for PVE. 

 

You said balance passes could wait until after U14. It's after U14. I know you guys have some bugfixing to do, but I want to remind you guys of the need for balance before you try to move on to the next newest and greatest addition to the game. 

Why not make it where in pvp, these abilities receive a debuff but in pve they stay the same? Dragon nest made it work.

[DiabolusUrsus]

Why not make it where in pvp, these abilities receive a debuff but in pve they stay the same? Dragon nest made it work.

 

Because then you have two separate sets of stats you need to keep balanced - the PVE stats which still need balancing, and the PVP stats which will demand the majority of balance attention. DE is already having a hard time staying on top of Warframe's balance, so it's better to keep the amount of stats they need to keep track of lower. Therefore, balance is more simple and easy to manage. Lower overall values also make percent scaling a little more reasonable by closing the gap between unmodded and fully-modded weapons. This will alleviate the gap in power felt by newer players who are relying on RNG for decent mod drops providing them combat effectiveness. 

 

The idea here is that while you're looking at smaller numbers, your overall power level will remain the same for PVE. You're weaker, but so are the enemies. The proportional TTK can remain the same. The idea here is that you *nerf* the players so that they don't have easy access to OHKOs, but you also *nerf* the enemies so that the player can still feel powerful in PVE. It's not supposed to be an overall PVE nerf, just a reining in of damage values to within a reasonable margin.