U15 Excalibur And The Joke We Call Super Jump

[Ithloniel]

I am posting this here because U15 got a lot of things right, but Excalibur was not one of them.

 

Radial Blind is now working as intended, and that is great.  Seriously, I abused the hell out of the old RB, but I can still accept the new one in its current form.  This is how it should be.

 

 

Then, we get into what can only be described as dark comedy.

 

Radial Javelin now summons Javelins per enemy, near each enemy, allowing the Skanas to actually connect.  While this is a nice change, the damage is still wildly underwhelming.  In fact, in many ways, it is worse.  We can't hit a target with multiple Javelins anymore, and the Bullet Attractor combo is essentially dead.  It also now has a stun effect.  Sounds nice, huh?  Too bad that animation lasts the majority of the stun.  Even with Natural Talent, it eats up time.  Ember's Accelerant makes Radial Javelin's stun look like a snail trying to move up a tread mill.

 

Slash Dash continues to be exactly what it always was.  A mobility option, overshadowed by coptering.  A damage option, overshadowed by any DPS frame you can think of.  Slash Dash is simply not fast enough.  Give it more speed, so it can be spammed, and we'll get a good skill with good damage and mobility.

 

Super Jump is probably my favorite Warframe joke to date.  It's like Bounce, but it can't be used on allies or enemies.  It's like Tail Wind, except you aren't Zephyr, and can't float your way down.  A skill meant for 100% mobility, it relies on power strength: the one attribute that remains woefully underwhelming on a late-game Excalibur.  Everyone knew this skill sucked.  I think that's why DE decided to buff it... and that buff was to give it stealth? Really?  So... we get a momentary 400% melee damage bonus while. in. the. air. .... right.  On top of that, we get a nice little stun where we take off from.  That's cute.  It's almost like we might do something during that stun, while moving through the air, invisible.  Isn't a stun meant to help mitigate damage in this game?  That seems severely redundant while you float invisible above everyone's heads... just a thought, but maybe this rework needs a rework.

 

 

What are your thoughts, community?  Are the changes giving you nightmares, or are they fulfilling your wildest Excalibur dreams as you leap tall buildings in a single invisible bound?

Edited October 27, 2014 by Ithloniel

[ValhaHazred]

Slash-dash should add the current melee weapon's damage.

 

I think Super Jump is just thematically weird. I don't know if it really even suits Excal. I'd rather the old version be added to every frame. Hold jump to do it or something.

 

Radial blind is good.

 

Like you said, Javeline falls behind on damage. It needs a bit of a buff.

[Vargras]

Highly disagree. I've always used Super Jump for the added mobility -- the stun on launch and invisibility in the air were icing on the cake. A nice little bit of mini-CC and some extra protection while airborne (and relatively helpless).

 

Radial Javelin change was a huge buff. Javelins almost always hit, and if the target survives, they're stunned.

 

Other than a potential buff to Slash Dash, I see nothing wrong with Excalibur.

[StinkyPygmy]

Dunno man, I have fun using super jump. Find it useful from time to time as well. Added utility is always nice though.

[Ithloniel]

Highly disagree. I've always used Super Jump for the added mobility -- the stun on launch and invisibility in the air were icing on the cake. A nice little bit of mini-CC and some extra protection while airborne (and relatively helpless).

 

Radial Javelin change was a huge buff. Javelins almost always hit, and if the target survives, they're stunned.

 

Other than a potential buff to Slash Dash, I see nothing wrong with Excalibur.

 

Super Jump was good utility when it was first introduced, way back at the birth of Warframe.  Since then, many frames just have straight upgrades to Super Jump.  The invisibility and mini-CC were meant to bring it up to par, but the CC and invis actually contradict each other.  Meanwhile, the stealth has no inherent benefit beyond keeping you from being shot while airborne.  I even tested around with attacking with my melee while in Super Jump.  It was a joke.  I tested throwing my Glaive P while in Super Jump.  You can't even throw it while airborne.  Outside of the classic "Launcher + Super Jump/Bounce/Tail Wind" combo, it remains sub-par mobility relative to other options, and brings nothing to the squad, except maybe a few stunned enemies in a 3 to 5 meter radius at your feet.

 

Radial Javelin "almost always" hits, but like I said, it actually lost damage when compared to circumstances where more than one Skana connected.  The stun is definitely nice on the skill, I'll agree with that, but all this means is that we have a poor version of Saryn's Miasma, without the DoT, without the corrosive procs, substantially lower damage, and still a chance to miss.

Edited October 27, 2014 by Ithloniel

[Mactax]

Speaking about the stun component, wouldn't it be more logical if the stun procced on landing? This would involve some skill into using it. Imagine, you are surrounded by the enemies - super jump, disengage - land on the group of enemies, stun - radial javelin - radial blind - land a few melee hits - slash dash. This looks like a nice combo in certain situations ^^ 

[Ithloniel]

Speaking about the stun component, wouldn't it be more logical if the stun procced on landing? This would involve some skill into using it. Imagine, you are surrounded by the enemies - super jump, disengage - land on the group of enemies, stun - radial javelin - radial blind - land a few melee hits - slash dash. This looks like a nice combo in certain situations ^^ 

 

I like this idea.  The only problem I see with it is that neg power Excaliburs could trigger the stun more often by cutting down their jump.  Maybe, if the stun range was reliant on Power Strength?  The other problem is this just turns Super Jump into an excuse to have a delayed stun mechanic.  It's like a slow-moving Accelerant without the heat damage buff.

 

 

... still, if it existed, I'd use it.  *whispers*Neg Excal could be a thing...

Edited October 27, 2014 by Ithloniel

[StinkyPygmy]

Speaking about the stun component, wouldn't it be more logical if the stun procced on landing? This would involve some skill into using it. Imagine, you are surrounded by the enemies - super jump, disengage - land on the group of enemies, stun - radial javelin - radial blind - land a few melee hits - slash dash. This looks like a nice combo in certain situations ^^ 

If you can get high enough then heavy landing has the same effect. You have to sacrifice a mod slot though. Would be ideal to have the stun on take off and landing.

[Reaver_X]

still needs a buff, super jump should be reworked a bit, radial javelin still doesnt stand out. slashdash should be multiplicative of melee weapon damage.

[Ithloniel]

So I just did some testing.

 

1) Super Jump's invisibility does not give 400% melee to slam attacks.  This is either because it isn't an aspect of the invisibility state of this skill, or because the invisibility ends prior to the damage being dealt.  I'm assuming it is the latter, but I am testing to be sure.

 

2) Super Jump's stun is more effective with a negative power strength build.  There is still no real reason to use it under this circumstance, since Radial Blind just does it better.

 

EDIT:  I went and fought Raptor with my melee and Super Jump.  I focused on using the new arial melee attack.  I didn't get any of the 400% melee yellow numbers during my mid-air invisible hits.

Edited October 27, 2014 by Ithloniel

[Reaver_X]

yeah, having a move buffed only to be still overshadowed by a move that was nerfed is just plain bad....

[Phoenix86]

Speaking about the stun component, wouldn't it be more logical if the stun procced on landing? This would involve some skill into using it. Imagine, you are surrounded by the enemies - super jump, disengage - land on the group of enemies, stun - radial javelin - radial blind - land a few melee hits - slash dash. This looks like a nice combo in certain situations ^^ 

 

The way i see it... radial stun ---> super jump ---> AoE melee KD... there you go, have your double stun :)

 

I think that the double CC (initial stun + invisibility) is redundant only against those enemies who are really close to us...

i mean... that initial stun doesnt stunlock the whole map, only the ones around you, invisibility saves you from all the rest (think about grineer/corpus scattered all around the map, you dont stun them all obviously)

 

About Slash Dash is still meh, we gave em a crapload of suggestions, none was followed

 

About Radial Javelin, meh... "it's just another press #4 to clear the room.... oh wait... press #4 to wound the room, fixed"

 

About Radial Blind well... if you use it while super jumping you can still blind almost everyone even if hiding behind covers

[Otakuwolf]

I am posting this here because U15 got a lot of things right, but Excalibur was not one of them.

 

Radial Blind is now working as intended, and that is great.  Seriously, I abused the hell out of the old RB, but I can still accept the new one in its current form.  This is how it should be.

 

 

Then, we get into what can only be described as dark comedy.

 

Radial Javelin now summons Javelins per enemy, near each enemy, allowing the Skanas to actually connect.  While this is a nice change, the damage is still wildly underwhelming.  In fact, in many ways, it is worse.  We can't hit a target with multiple Javelins anymore, and the Bullet Attractor combo is essentially dead.  It also now has a stun effect.  Sounds nice, huh?  Too bad that animation lasts the majority of the stun.  Even with Natural Talent, it eats up time.  Ember's Accelerant makes Radial Javelin's stun look like a snail trying to move up a tread mill.

 

Slash Dash continues to be exactly what it always was.  A mobility option, overshadowed by coptering.  A damage option, overshadowed by any DPS frame you can think of.  Slash Dash is simply not fast enough.  Give it more speed, so it can be spammed, and we'll get a good skill with good damage and mobility.

 

Super Jump is probably my favorite Warframe joke to date.  It's like Bounce, but it can't be used on allies or enemies.  It's like Tail Wind, except you aren't Zephyr, and can't float your way down.  A skill meant for 100% mobility, it relies on power strength: the one attribute that remains woefully underwhelming on a late-game Excalibur.  Everyone knew this skill sucked.  I think that's why DE decided to buff it... and that buff was to give it stealth? Really?  So... we get a momentary 400% melee damage bonus while. in. the. air. .... right.  On top of that, we get a nice little stun where we take off from.  That's cute.  It's almost like we might do something during that stun, while moving through the air, invisible.  Isn't a stun meant to help mitigate damage in this game?  That seems severely redundant while you float invisible above everyone's heads... just a thought, but maybe this rework needs a rework.

 

 

What are your thoughts, community?  Are the changes giving you nightmares, or are they fulfilling your wildest Excalibur dreams as you leap tall buildings in a single invisible bound?

 

My thought about this is that If you are so concerned about those points you should play a different frame, I main excalibur and i'm fine with it the way it is because:

 

Radial Blind: I never spammed it, i never abused of it, i usually just kill that few enemies i have to, so I just "fired" this skill every now and then as distraction when i was reviving a downed teammate or when the defence objective was getting overwhelmed because the team was full of Hallway Heroes numbnuts went off on theyr own for example.

The new mechanic is not of a big deal if you know how to live with it (a GREAT way to fix that is to use what you call "Joke skill" Super Jump and then radial blind to make sure everyone around will "see the sun").

 

Radial Javelin: Never really needed it but i'm not surprised it doesen't work well in endgame stages (are callen "endgame" for a reason), after all this skill is just pure damage and it doesen't apply a debuff like some other ults do, yet it's very handy if you have a mag using the bullet attractor to some boss. And the augmentation mod from the syndacates makes it an interesting buff skill rather than a damaging one (think about using it in an infestation defence together with some Gas damage built Dragon Nikana).

 

Slash dash: Excellent for Mobility, you don't know how many rooms and cliffs i passed thorough with this (and sometimes also paired with the "joke skill" super jump for extra lenght), coptering MIGHT overshadow it but you need a weapon to copter in first place, and compared to other "endgame" melee weapons with way better damage you're unlikely to bring one at somepoint.

 

Super Jump: There are MANY occasions in which you can't run thorough a staircase without bumping on a Napalm for example, so you jump directly to the highest catwalk and run away showing a middle-finger.

This is what the Super Jump is for.

Many people think that this skill is useless but there are many occasions in which i found it VERY useful instead, especially when paired with other skills (Super Jump with Radial Blind now makes sure every enemy around you has a line of sight of the blink, paired with Radial Javelin made sure those wouldn't hit an obstacle before to hit your enemy, and it always gives extra-lenght to the slash-dash when you need an extra-kick of mobility).

Super Jump is anything BUT a joke, you just need to be creative to find out it's many uses (and, OH ! Super-jumping on a high wall, wallrun on it vertically, and then jump down with a "Heavy impact" mod on ?).

 

Most of the Excalibur skills might look occasional, but if you think about it has a nice set to cover any possibility.

Besides, other frames also have "occasional" skills which aren't bad but people just don't use them and complain because pretend those to be in a precise way (must destroy everything in a room and cross an entire stage with a button) and can't find or make up some use for those.

[Oriviagene]

Pls add either more utility or more dmg to javelin

And add something to slash dash -_-

[VentiGlondi]

Super Jump has no place in this game, due to tileset designs.

Tiles are horizontal, most of parkour obstacles are horizontal. DE didn't even do anything with the fact Super Jump cancels your horizontal momentum.

 

I don't understand why DE tries so hard to stick with their original ideas, even though they obviously don't work.

[MDRLOz]

Slash dash: Excellent for Mobility, you don't know how many rooms and cliffs i passed thorough with this (and sometimes also paired with the "joke skill" super jump for extra lenght), coptering MIGHT overshadow it but you need a weapon to copter in first place, and compared to other "endgame" melee weapons with way better damage you're unlikely to bring one at somepoint.

 

Super Jump: There are MANY occasions in which you can't run thorough a staircase without bumping on a Napalm for example, so you jump directly to the highest catwalk and run away showing a middle-finger.

This is what the Super Jump is for.

Many people think that this skill is useless but there are many occasions in which i found it VERY useful instead, especially when paired with other skills (Super Jump with Radial Blind now makes sure every enemy around you has a line of sight of the blink, paired with Radial Javelin made sure those wouldn't hit an obstacle before to hit your enemy, and it always gives extra-lenght to the slash-dash when you need an extra-kick of mobility).

Super Jump is anything BUT a joke, you just need to be creative to find out it's many uses (and, OH ! Super-jumping on a high wall, wallrun on it vertically, and then jump down with a "Heavy impact" mod on ?).

 

All mobility points on Super jump and slash dash are not moot. Using the melee air attack system you can fly higher than a rank 3 super jump and forward faster that slash dash. 

 

Yes you need a melee weapon to do this. However you don't need energy and it is so much more flexible on direction and control. 

 

The only real unique thing new super jump has is that now you can start reloading a weapon, super jump and be invisible for a few seconds while you finish reloading your gun. That is the only use of being invisible. 

[Otakuwolf]

All mobility points on Super jump and slash dash are not moot. Using the melee air attack system you can fly higher than a rank 3 super jump and forward faster that slash dash. 

 

Yes you need a melee weapon to do this. However you don't need energy and it is so much more flexible on direction and control. 

 

The only real unique thing new super jump has is that now you can start reloading a weapon, super jump and be invisible for a few seconds while you finish reloading your gun. That is the only use of being invisible. 

 

I prefer to spend a bit more of energy than equipping a precise weapon that makes me travel faster but at somepoint has no true combat utility whatsoever (and is not so impossible to run out of ammo for your guns in higher levels), and on top of that if the energy is so much of a problem there are also many mods that help you out with that, so much that a lot of people use those to can keep spamming ultimates (which cost is much higher than a slash-dash or a super jump) over and over with little to no energy cost.

Then you don't really need to cover hudge distances in every single second you're playing (unless you're a speedrunner, which is not a good way to play the game anyway because is team-unfriendly) hence you don't really need to spam the slash-dash, nor you have a real need to copter in most of the occasions.

 

Also, the coptering isn't the only way to travel faster since the front-flip also works very well (and now even more paired with the melee jump attack).

Edited October 27, 2014 by Otakuwolf

[Phoenix86]

DE didn't even do anything with the fact Super Jump cancels your horizontal momentum.

 

 

Now, this is an issue. (i'm not being sarcastic, losing that momentum hurts a lot)

[Marthrym]

Agreed OP, +1.

[Cleesus]

The animations on radial Javelin definitely needs to be sped up.

[Varzy]

Radial Javelin's projectile count should be what Power Strength enhances. Give the skill multishot, essentially. 150% multishot at max rank, and that increases with Power Strength. Intensify would essentially double the power of the skill by making each enemy take 2 javelins, guaranteed.

 

Have the damage either bypass armor, be finisher type, or eliminate enemy armor, so survivors are crippled.

 

Speed up the cast animation, too, and let enemies be flat-out pinned.

[motorfirebox]

If Super Jump could be used as a double jump, that would be something. Beyond that I just can't imagine using it.

[akira_him]

The stun of Radial Javelin is just a joke while comparing it to the casting time (got about 1 second to shoot things down even WITH natural talent)

 

Super Jump is ash's smoke bomb, be in mind that ash can teleport , cast smoke bomb, kills everyone,

but Exca cannot suddenly goes into the center of a group of enemies and cast super jump (maybe he can somehow gets into it by slash dash, idk)

limited situation to use its stun

 

radial blind, better than predicted, works totally fine

[RiouHotaru]

Wait, on Radial Javelin, even with Natural Talent the stun wears off too fast?  Because when I use Radial Javelin with maxed Natural Talent I can easily start shooting/blasting things.  Hell, even without Natural Talent I have more than enough time to go after enemies.  While it does make the Bullet Attractor combo useless, I find the fact that the enemy cap was straight up removed to still be a better change.  Now I can hit 20+ enemies, even those behind cover, simply because they were within my area of effect when Javelin went off.

 

Slash Dash isn't obsolete by coptering.  Unless you're using specific weapons with excellent slide-attack numbers, Slash Dash still lets you move faster, farther, and hit everything between start and finish without an awkward animation.  I do agree that perhaps a portion of melee damage should be added, or perhaps an automatic bleed proc like Shuriken would make it more useful, but what we get certainly isn't bad.

[SIDESTRE4M]

I am posting this here because U15 got a lot of things right, but Excalibur was not one of them.

 

Radial Blind is now working as intended, and that is great.  Seriously, I abused the hell out of the old RB, but I can still accept the new one in its current form.  This is how it should be.

 

 

Then, we get into what can only be described as dark comedy.

 

Radial Javelin now summons Javelins per enemy, near each enemy, allowing the Skanas to actually connect.  While this is a nice change, the damage is still wildly underwhelming.  In fact, in many ways, it is worse.  We can't hit a target with multiple Javelins anymore, and the Bullet Attractor combo is essentially dead.  It also now has a stun effect.  Sounds nice, huh?  Too bad that animation lasts the majority of the stun.  Even with Natural Talent, it eats up time.  Ember's Accelerant makes Radial Javelin's stun look like a snail trying to move up a tread mill.

 

Slash Dash continues to be exactly what it always was.  A mobility option, overshadowed by coptering.  A damage option, overshadowed by any DPS frame you can think of.  Slash Dash is simply not fast enough.  Give it more speed, so it can be spammed, and we'll get a good skill with good damage and mobility.

 

Super Jump is probably my favorite Warframe joke to date.  It's like Bounce, but it can't be used on allies or enemies.  It's like Tail Wind, except you aren't Zephyr, and can't float your way down.  A skill meant for 100% mobility, it relies on power strength: the one attribute that remains woefully underwhelming on a late-game Excalibur.  Everyone knew this skill sucked.  I think that's why DE decided to buff it... and that buff was to give it stealth? Really?  So... we get a momentary 400% melee damage bonus while. in. the. air. .... right.  On top of that, we get a nice little stun where we take off from.  That's cute.  It's almost like we might do something during that stun, while moving through the air, invisible.  Isn't a stun meant to help mitigate damage in this game?  That seems severely redundant while you float invisible above everyone's heads... just a thought, but maybe this rework needs a rework.

 

 

What are your thoughts, community?  Are the changes giving you nightmares, or are they fulfilling your wildest Excalibur dreams as you leap tall buildings in a single invisible bound?

 

You are a super jump heretic. In the name of Red Veil, you shall be eradicated from the system.

 

My thoughts? Excal got better, so I won't complain about that.

Has he gotten good enough? That's still debatable, but I like Super Jump, so this was the reason, I had to answer.