Seriously, De. It's Time To Buff Lato Vandal, Aklato, And Lato Prime.

[Similon]

How does the Bolto not match exactly you outlined. It's semi auto, >10 rounds, and a decent fire rate. It's got quite high damage for a secondary, fast reload, good status chance...     The big mechanical difference is hitscan versus not hitscan, but you didn't specify this as being a criteria.  (puzzled)

Sorry, I thought it'd be relatively clear from when I classified Bolt weapons separately in the paragraph above?

That was because functionally, it doesn't feel like what I'm talking about.

 

It's not "Here's a traditional pistol". And yes, this is mostly because it propels big ol' slow moving bolts rather than friendly hit-scan bullets. Which, unsurprisingly, is a massive difference in the feel of a weapon.

 

Since that is the issue at hand (well, not the main one), the Lato is surprisingly unique in its genericness. The "well here's a weapon that plays totally differently but is better" argument doesn't work.

 

If you want a more valid proposal, a correctly modded Magnus can create the sort of statline I'm looking for. You can get a large enough magazine, it's hitscan, relatively reliable, et cetera.

 

But you (probably) wouldn't think of it like that, would you? (Probably) because stylistically, it's totally wrong. The bolto falls down the same hole for a much more blatant reason.

 

Sorry if I sound rude, I'm trying to reduce the possibility of being misinterpretted.

Edited November 11, 2014 by Similon

[Lers]

C'mon DE, give me a reason not to delete my shining proof of surviving a more... elegant time. When Gorgons and Heks dominated the field, Grineer attacked in small combat formation Bravos and great potato famines ravished many brave Tenno!

 

Oh and Lato Vandal carried you to Pluto. Good times.

[Othergrunty]

I don't want more lookalikes that just have changed damage and the same model/graphics to exist, if that's where this is going.  Like, the idea of making things uniform is nice, but I don't like duplicate weapons as it is, personally, and I certainly do not want more, even if it comes at the cost of two starter weapons having mismatched names.

 

And i would have liked to see normal weapons as starter choice, with the weapons falling into the idea of solid but not great, instead of near worthless past Mercury. So yeah not a fan of the whole MK-1 concept either.

 

Aklato, Lato Prime, and Lato Vandal being buffed, however, is totally an actual balance issue and I can get behind that for logical reasons because it makes sense.

 

Actualy if you go with logic only the AkLato truely needs an improvement because it's not statistically in line with the single variant. The Prime and Vandal variant can actualy be ignored because of their statstically insignificant numbers. 

Logicaly any Vandal, Wraith or Prime variant could just have 5% damage increase and the minimum requirement for the title would be filled (being in some way improved).

You could say it's the personal feelings of the devs themselves who decided that these weapons should have an impact on gameplay and balance.

 

But anyway, you made your point very well, i can't really further argue with you and i think we should stop here. Time will tell if Scott finaly finds the time to fix the AkLato at least.

Edited November 11, 2014 by Othergrunty

[Malikon]

Actualy if you go with logic only the AkLato truely needs an improvement because it's not in line with the single variant, the Prime and Vandal variant can be ignored because of their statstically insignificant numbers. 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I read this line and understood "I don't have one, so don't give these the same respect as the other weapon variants in this series".  That is not logic I can get behind, if you support the AkLato, then you support the Vandal and Prime as well.

[HackShield]

dont see a reason they better as the standart point and lato was NEVER a good one xD so what you expect a Marelock prime? or Vandal ._.

 

about Braton prime  it could use some stat changes and the basic version too cause for the Poster rifle like excal the poster frame its a but odd.

 

but lato is fine as it is :p a glock pistol with paper balls

[Malikon]

dont see a reason they better as the standart point and lato was NEVER a good one xD so what you expect a Marelock prime? or Vandal ._.

 

about Braton prime  it could use some stat changes and the basic version too cause for the Poster rifle like excal the poster frame its a but odd.

 

but lato is fine as it is :p a glock pistol with paper balls

The problem, HackShield, was that long ago all of the Lato variants were nerfed at the same time.  When Lato Standard got buffed, none of the others did.  So AkLato, Lato Vandal and Lato Prime are based off of an older iteration of Lato with crappier stats than it currently has.

 

What they're wanting is that AkLato, Lato V, and Lato P be updated based on Lato's current stats.

[Volume]

As if the Lato was so ridiculously OP or something...

 

Always disagreed with the nerf. Imo it should be put back the way it originally was. maybe make a mk-1 lato if they want this 12 damage trashcan of a pistol around.

Edited November 12, 2014 by Volume

[Rydian]

imo, that's a very important thing.

 

We have somewhat worthwile (or "end game" if you're into that sort of classification) Full auto, burst fire and Semi automatic rifles. Various curious shotguns, LMGs, whatever.

 

Secondaries? We have a few hand cannons & revolvers that are considered good. 3 Shotguns (or hand cannons if you believe the descriptions). A nice bolt weapon or 3, the throwing weapons seem to go down well. Then we have the pocket miniguns, cut down Lever Action rifles and a load of SMG/PDW/MP's.

Hell, we even have Rocket Launchers, Dolphins and Dart guns.

 

As for your classic Pistol?

Semi Auto, >10 round magazine, decent firerate etc.

The trusty sidearms used by everybody irl, that we're all so accustomed to? The go-to weapon for so many gamers?

 

There's a Lato. If you want the pistol one would expect to be using, you'll be sorely disappointed. I guess if you ignore the fact that the Lex is nothing like it, you could claim the Lex fills this role. Maybe even Bolto if you (once again) want to pretend I'm talking about something I'm not.

 

So, yeah. Here's an Archtype we're missing. This doesn't necessarily mean Lato needs to be made Uber - Just that it'd be nice to have all the options. Rather than just Mareloks and Brakks as far as the eye can see.

This, I agree with.  Warframe has a ton of weapons that function quite differently from each other, what we need are more weapons that function like normal ones... but aren't copies of them.  Warframe actually has somewhat of a lack of "normal" handguns and rifles, which is probably why people seem so focused on the Lato, Braton, and kin.

 

Like if there was a Lato-like handgun that had a totally different look, different damage balance (perhaps Corpus design instead of Tenno), did more damage, and was MR 4 or something to account for that... but with similar handling and firing mechanics, I could totally get behind that.

 

Not a Lato buff, not a Lato MK-2, and not a prime but a new weapon with new graphics/sounds and changed-up stats (while keeping the same handling that people are after) that could be a drop-in Lato replacement as far as in-game use and feel goes.

 

The Vasto and Magnus are good examples of variations, but they might vary too much for some people, like the reload speed on the Magnus (especially the Akmagnus) being so terribad...

 

 

 

 

And i would have liked to see normal weapons as starter choice, with the weapons falling into the idea of solid but not great, instead of near worthless past Mercury. So yeah not a fan of the whole MK-1 concept either.

Mk-1 versions seem like a stopgap attempt to add a little variety to what newbies get access to, weapon balance and obtainment versus MR requirements need a passover in general.

[Othergrunty]

This, I agree with.  Warframe has a ton of weapons that function quite differently from each other, what we need are more weapons that function like normal ones... but aren't copies of them.  Warframe actually has somewhat of a lack of "normal" handguns and rifles, which is probably why people seem so focused on the Lato, Braton, and kin.

(...)

 

With the exception of exotic weapons or those with unique mechanics, i often get the feeling that they want to give each faction at least one weapon of ever general type. So that fans of the various faction's aesthetics can be pleased.

Like how Corpus have the Cestra, Grineer have the Viper and Tenno have the Furis as their basic MP type weapon.

 

Which of course means that they still have plenty of holes to fill. Like how Corpus still don't have a primary shotgun. Or fitting this discussion, that both the Corpus and Grineer don't have semi-auto pistols (the Grineer Hellions use Latos when airborn if i remember right).

 

Though it's also kind of difficult to say if one weapon can be really grouped with the other.

For example can the Boltor be seen as an assault rifle in the same way as the Karak?

 

Mk-1 versions seem like a stopgap attempt to add a little variety to what newbies get access to, weapon balance and obtainment versus MR requirements need a passover in general.

 

Makes sense. Not ideal. But it makes sense.

[Brynslustafir]

Wonderful, DE has moved on to nerfing frames for no reason. 

 

Simply Wonderful. 

[Rydian]

With the exception of exotic weapons or those with unique mechanics, i often get the feeling that they want to give each faction at least one weapon of ever general type. So that fans of the various faction's aesthetics can be pleased.

Like how Corpus have the Cestra, Grineer have the Viper and Tenno have the Furis as their basic MP type weapon.

 

Which of course means that they still have plenty of holes to fill. Like how Corpus still don't have a primary shotgun. Or fitting this discussion, that both the Corpus and Grineer don't have semi-auto pistols (the Grineer Hellions use Latos when airborn if i remember right).

 

Though it's also kind of difficult to say if one weapon can be really grouped with the other.

For example can the Boltor be seen as an assault rifle in the same way as the Karak?

I was more focused on the feel in-game.  Like for the Lato there's various other handguns but they act differently.  Like the Lex is much slower to fire and has a lot more kick..  The Cestra fires quickly but wildly and has a spin-up mechanic.  The Seer has high zoom, but cannot crit and fires a visible projectile at a slow rate.  The Vasto is closest to the Lato, perhaps, but has much more of a wild west gunslinger feel than a modern self-defense pistol feel.

 

Makes sense. Not ideal. But it makes sense.

Kinda' par for the course, the game is under such heavy development that DE often can't put too much effort into any one category, and a lot of the game is still measured like this.  Like Vay Hek having a total rewrite, but they haven't gotten around to even giving Raptor something other than a static art image for display and he's still using his U8 or whatever dialog.

Edited November 13, 2014 by Rydian

[OldSnakeMGS4]

Yep, totally +1 - the Lato Prime especially, it does need a serious damage buff (as well as all Latos) to compete with other pistols, now that I leveled the AKJagara which is now at more than 1000 slash damage and Lato Prime at merely 400 slash, which is total joke compared to all other pistols as well.

Edited February 9, 2015 by OldSnakeMGS4

[Lost_Cartographer]

WARNING:  Necroed thread!

 

That said, I too would like to see the Lato's buffed again as well... but in the Lato Prime's case, no better than the standard Lato.  Unless y'all don't mind making the Lato Prime available in game, there really is no actual replacement/upgrade for the Lato that still acts like the Lato.  Until such a weapon exists, Lato Prime = pay to win if it's any more powerful than the Lato.

Edited February 9, 2015 by Littleman88

[OldSnakeMGS4]

The Lato Prime should be buffed in the same relation like the standard Lato - same damage as before in both cases but higher for both weapons in general.

[Rafarix]

WARNING:  Necroed thread!

 

-snip-

This maybe necro thred, but give props to the guy who atleast used the search function first?

 

Anyways to add on this nercoed thread... I say just undo the original nerf. It's not like they were OP in the past they were just perfect; how they were good enough to get by and not strong enough to outshine other sidearms to upgrade to ie. Vasto, Magnus, Lex, Bolto etc.

[Cranial_Enigma]

WARNING:  Necroed thread!

 

That said, I too would like to see the Lato's buffed again as well... but in the Lato Prime's case, no better than the standard Lato.  Unless y'all don't mind making the Lato Prime available in game, there really is no actual replacement/upgrade for the Lato that still acts like the Lato.  Until such a weapon exists, Lato Prime = pay to win if it's any more powerful than the Lato.

 

It only becomes pay to win once the best weapon(s) in the game can only be bought for money, for both the vandal/prime we just want them to be a viable choice. In your wording the prime and vandal right now are pay to win because they are better then the regular lato, and if the prime and vandal weren't better then the regular lato then it wouldn't follow other prime logic/lore of being better or upgrades.

[Lost_Cartographer]

It only becomes pay to win once the best weapon(s) in the game can only be bought for money, for both the vandal/prime we just want them to be a viable choice. In your wording the prime and vandal right now are pay to win because they are better then the regular lato, and if the prime and vandal weren't better then the regular lato then it wouldn't follow other prime logic/lore of being better or upgrades.

 

Money was involved.  While I personally don't care about buying power (my costumes in Elsword can attest to that...) it's because they're all functionally crap weapons that no one gives a damn about their power difference, for now.  When they're not crap weapons, people will start to raise the issue.  Excalibur prime is a carbon copy of Excalibur, an extra polarity isn't going to make him instantly better, it just saves the player a single forma.  The Skana Prime has some extra power over the Skana and more crit than most 1h swords, but it's in league with the other 1h swords in that it's still more of a side grade next to weapons like the Ether Sword and Heat Sword.  

 

The Lato though... name another secondary that's as average as the Lato.  Vasto/Magnus have low ammo capacities, and dual-wielding them increases reload time and reduces accuracy.  The Bolto has ammo velocity so it's trickier to use, but comes very close otherwise.  Finally, the Lato Vandal and the Lato Prime can't be acquired anymore and never will be available, while the wraith/vandals of other weapons always have the possibility of eventually returning.  So REALLY, the Lato variants shouldn't be rendered more powerful until there's something like the Lato that's better than all of them, but then we're back to square one with the Vandal and the Prime, eh?

 

So... yeah... I don't expect the Lato Vandal or the Lato Prime to be nearly as high on the priority list as the AKLato, if only to avoid that backlash (Excal prime is already enough of a hot topic and that's just for the sake of having him) and the AKLato is apparently really low on the priority list.

 

People clearly do enjoy the Lato, as do I, they just wish it didn't fall off so soon.  Giving a select handful a Lato that can perform better enough would just be refueling a fire that died a while ago.

 

For what it's worth, the Lato and Braton can get through Ceres.  Maybe they won't do a T3/T4 void, but they can get through everything else.  Either way, until there's a Lato MKII, I don't expect even the slightly better Lato variants, exclusive to $250 founder's packs and CB participants, things a smaller subsect of the population have at that, to really see those desired buffs, much less beyond the Lato.

 

P.S.  Seriously... where are the middling secondary reinforcements?  It's always machine pistols, one-hit wonders and gimmicky $#!%.  AKJagara come close I guess (finally)... except for that recoil.  WTB Jagara -recoil per shot.

Edited February 10, 2015 by Littleman88

[Rydian]

... and what about Prime Access?

[Volume]

Please DE, I would love to be able to use my Lato Vandal again in real capacity.

[Paradoxbomb]

+1, I love the look and feel of the Lato, but the fact that it's a starter weapon means it's not practical past lower levels, even if you invest heavily in it. Personally, I would love if they changed the current iteration of the Lato to an Mk-1 weapon, and then added a standard Lato with improved stats that's viable for mid-high level content. And of course buff the Lato variants accordingly.

[plznohurtme]

The Skana Prime has some extra power over the Skana and more crit than most 1h swords, but it's in league with the other 1h swords in that it's still more of a side grade next to weapons like the Ether Sword and Heat Sword.

 

So... yeah... I don't expect the Lato Vandal or the Lato Prime to be nearly as high on the priority list as the AKLato, if only to avoid that backlash (Excal prime is already enough of a hot topic and that's just for the sake of having him) and the AKLato is apparently really low on the priority list.

 

People clearly do enjoy the Lato, as do I, they just wish it didn't fall off so soon.  Giving a select handful a Lato that can perform better enough would just be refueling a fire that died a while ago.

 

First of all the Skana Prime can use Bright Purity which makes it the second best 1h weapon in the game easily eclipsing everything except for Dakra Prime in damage and has a corrosive damage health regen proc.  So it's not really much of a sidegrade as just being flat out superior, however base stats wise it does fall in line with some of the others.

 

Second the Lato can be compared to pretty much every other single sidearm and it will not come out well at all.  Sure it has a 15 round magazine, but it also does 18 damage per shot.  Over the course of the whole magazine it still won't match the amount of damage a Vasto does in its magazine.  The Lato was balanced around being a MK1 weapon for whatever reason DE decided it to be so.  The obvious solution would be to make a MK1 Lato and buff the Lato and all of its alternate versions to be even close to the current usable weapons.

 

However I understand that DE has the history of simply not going back and fixing problems with balance regarding older things.  I do certainly expect it to continue which is unfortunate because there are a lot of fun weapons which don't have direct counterparts like the Lato which will simply be unusable no matter what you do to them.  There's no reason that they shouldn't be close enough to all of the other single weapons we have to be a usable choice.

[RealPandemonium]

Ever since they buffed the mk1 weapons with the tutorial quest the Lato is actually alright now.  Its variants should be adjusted accordingly; it's kind of funny that the vanilla Lato is superior to all of them

[plznohurtme]

Ever since they buffed the mk1 weapons with the tutorial quest the Lato is actually alright now.  Its variants should be adjusted accordingly; it's kind of funny that the vanilla Lato is superior to all of them

 

I haven't personally used or even looked at a Lato in forever, but according to the stats on the wiki both the Vandal and Prime are superior to the regular it's just the AKLato which is still behind for some reason.  None of them do enough to actually warrant being used in any high level content.

[Cranial_Enigma]

I haven't personally used or even looked at a Lato in forever, but according to the stats on the wiki both the Vandal and Prime are superior to the regular it's just the AKLato which is still behind for some reason.  None of them do enough to actually warrant being used in any high level content.

 

Well before the vandal had 30 damage and the prime had 28, then they got horribly nerfed down to like 15/16 damage while the lato sat at a pathetic 12 damage because people said the mk1 braton/skana sucked so instead of buffing them they nerfed the lato to death and only gave back half of the damage they took away. I miss seeing my clan mates use the lato vandal in high level missions along side my lato prime.