Sword Alone! Or, Sword Go Home? Or, Have Sword Get Boned?

[Janzer]

I'm talking about supporting what was started, which is a DE trend to have so much going on that they drop the development unless people cry loudly enough about something to garner enough attention that it does get some lovin. Sword alone can only take you so far, but was hyped as a play style throughout development.

 

Consider the changes and inclusion of some new items on this small list of stuff:

- better accuracy on enemies, regardless of your movement speed or distance, or even the window of opportunity for the enemy, which ends up incurring more bleed procs from Grineer, as an example, and shield getting shredded to render them useless to even have

 

- overlapping ancient auras making invulnerable mobs

 

- eximus that suck your energy, life and give you toxin death with huge aoe range

 

- "goo" to slow you

 

- corpus with their accurate laser guys that perfectly track and bleed proc you

 

- bees. you're just annoying us! but yet another reason to keep rollin? I'm already rolling to mitigate some status proc damage. But stamina isn't a problem so...

 

- stamina drain while blocking which doesn't properly scale in any way

 

- lack of stamina for better mobility due to needing it while swinging

 

- low combo multiplier that doesn't scale in anyway to mobs, and runs out too quickly

 

- so many knockdown options for the enemy now, which at higher level will absolutely stun lock your ! on the ground if you do get downed

 

Utility frame cards can help, but there are so many you can use and only so much space for them to go. These cards should be consolidated based on the effects.

 

Stamina mods 4.

Knockdown effect mods 6.

Damage reduction mods at least 11.

 

There's also:

- mods for energy

- mods for melee assistance like retribution which opens up finishers (which make you immune to damage while you're doing them, so its a bit important)

- reflection which COULD help except for the damn stamina drain

- essentials like Vitality, Redirection, Vigor and sometimes Steel Fiber depending on the frame

 

The point being that, as the mobs have increased in power, as new ranged weapons and frame abilities have been tweaked, the idea of Sword Alone being viable for us more hardcore and CONSISTENTLY melee-only players has slowly increased the difficulty to a point of non-viability in higher ranks. I'd like to also add, there's really no reward we're expecting for the effort we put in, which is much greater than other play styles based on survivability. I'm not asking for more goodies, I'm asking to just help us to stay alive!

 

Go ahead and ask anyone in game if they want you to melee only in a T4S for an hour. See how well that goes over. Ask about melee only play in any higher tier game play. No one wants that. People will state that melee players don't kill fast enough and will get killed much too quickly.

Edited December 19, 2014 by Janzer

[Janzer]

Trinity is a strong defensive tank, but defensive tanks scales the worst for melee because melee as a whole is already lacking in damage. 

 

Without extreme damage modifiers like a stealth multiplier, a melee trinity will have issues killing things fast later.

 

Additionally this also means melee players would be locked in to a specific frame, with specific mods, playing in god mode. Trinity can die, sure, but it is not based on melee skill that keeps her alive. She's just invulnerable during the time her abilities are used which means it's really just ability play, not melee skill.

Nothing wrong with it at all, but the effects of melee play is felt less when you don't really feel the effects of everything that is damaging you.

[CY13ERPUNK]

blocking should still drain stamina based on dmg, but the ratio needs to be adjusted to drain less stamina than it does currently IMHO

 

"The Sword Alone" was arguably impossible prior to the mid-air direction melee attacks, but now that we have them, i would argue that melee is in a fine place (aside from pressure point being weaker than the primary or 2ndary base dmg mods)

 

[and of course i still think channeling needs work, and holding melee for a simple charge attack should be returned to all melee, not just the thrown melee weapons, and many stances/combos need adjustments]

 

personally i run around with melee only all the time (ie no guns), blocking and positioning are important of course, but it's completely feasible

Edited December 19, 2014 by CY13ERPUNK

[Kruglov]

I've never had problems getting my ichors, fragor, or orthos prime to murder things well past level 40.

 

As someone else said, modding for status really helps.

Enemies that are being stunned, tripped, confused cant fight back.

[letir]

Melee don't have multishot mods. It's severly reduce their damage.

[Trollzord]

Volt here.

Power efficency/power durration/Shocking speed - Jat Kittag/Crushing ruin/blast/gas.

Swinning my hammer at crazy speed while my enemies are stunned by shocking speed, and stun them some more with blast dmg. I can just running aroun, spim2win without being hit. If there are too many enemies. Shock !

Gotta stun em all.

P.s I always running around with no guns. Melee only.

[BrazilianJoe]

We need a new game mechanic: Melee Time. 

 

It's like a slowness aura which fades with the distance. This slowness aura affects enemy and bullet movement And is only active when the player is using melee. enemies with histscan weapons would have their accuracy penalty increased when targeting players with melee weapons. 

 

This Aura would be a passive, innate for all weapons. 

[fatpig84]

blocking should still drain stamina based on dmg, but the ratio needs to be adjusted to drain less stamina than it does currently IMHO

 

"The Sword Alone" was arguably impossible prior to the mid-air direction melee attacks, but now that we have them, i would argue that melee is in a fine place (aside from pressure point being weaker than the primary or 2ndary base dmg mods)

 

[and of course i still think channeling needs work, and holding melee for a simple charge attack should be returned to all melee, not just the thrown melee weapons, and many stances/combos need adjustments]

 

personally i run around with melee only all the time (ie no guns), blocking and positioning are important of course, but it's completely feasible

 

Bring on Melee 2.5 !

 

1) Quick Melee has access to blocking. So you can block even when using guns.

2) Return of strong single hit attacks (charged attacks).

3) Channeling should use stamina, not energy.

4) Re-working of stamina block mechanics.

5) Stamina should only be exclusive to melee, sprinting and co should NOT use stamina !

6) Each weapons should have a unique channeling damage rather than scale off the base damage.

 

Thus encouraging build and weapon diversity, I mean how often do you see pure channel builds?

Edited December 19, 2014 by fatpig84

[V0LK]

There's literally, absolutely zero reason why DE should not return charged attacks. It would bring more diversity, it would complement combos, anyone who doesn't like can not use it and stay with quick melee or combos. It could be a matter of choice - say you need a second to fully charge and deal 200 dmg, or you can hit enemy four times, dealing 50 dmg with each strike. Everybody's happy!

 

I stopped using melee after "Melee 2.0" was introduced. I just strap Fury for coptering and that's it. Because mashing E, like me having seizure, is not as satisfying as to charge a sword and cut enemy in half in one sweet motion.

[Random286]

Im guessing DE will make melee more useful when focus is implemented.

[(PSN)obsidiancurse]

Firstly OP, I think you may be taking the phrase "sword alone" a little too literally?

Melee is viable up to a certain point, but then so are just primaries, secondaries and abilities. Once you reach a certain tipping point you need to start combining them together in order to survive.

That being said, ranged weapons have advantages, so perhaps a melee only load out should give the player a slight boost in certain stats? You're carrying less, so a speed and stamina boost could apply, maybe even a small reduction in knock down and proc plus resistance to auras?

I like the suggestion of slow time, sort of like the max payne games, the higher your combo counter the more you enter "sword time" and the enemies slow down more and more. Not sure how that would work in squads though? You would probably have to reverse it, the higher the combo the faster the player becomes and maybe more elusive, resistant etc, instead of just the damage boost we get now?

[Naftal]

I absolutely read what you said. As a pretty hardcore melee player I know of attacking while a knockdown is going to occur, which does NOT guarantee knockdown resistance. It's a chance, but it's no guarantee. Blocking also is no guarantee of a knockdown resist at all, and blocking while your in range isn't always an option. Front flipping is fine, when you have the option for it.

 

I brought up the mod cards because it's a fact that we have 4 mod cards to combat knockdown effects. It's a valid point because it's in the game.

 

You're basically trying to negate the point of stamina in the game and it's negative drain by things that are not reliable enough. Stamina is absolutely a problem when you're swinging at enemies in a crowd, if you play in high enough levels with enough spawns, that you won't have any stamina at all after attacking to flit away with all the time.

 

Melee only play style need more development attention. That's all I'm asking, and you're trying to negate that?

 

I'm not resting my case on a few melee runs. I have run melee only on my Volt, for more than a year. Not exclusively, but I'm pretty much known for doing this by anyone that has seen my gameplay. Why Volt? Because he's a good test frame to work with. He has high shields, high energy pool, and is malleable to what you want to build for.

 

My opinion isn't the end all and be all, but my I'm sharing my experience based on many months/hours.

 

I respect that you feel melee doesn't need any more work. Based on this thread, if I did base my information on a few people that bother with it, it appears that no one has any issue with melee right now.

 

But that still doesn't invalidate all of the hours I've spent testing melee with different frames and just about all melee weapons. Melee is what I do. And right now, based on all the updates added in to combat abilities spammers, melee is suffering due to enemy power creep.

Well I'm a hardcore melee player too and I know that you can time your actions so it's not a chance to block a knockdown... It's up to your own skills if you can guarantee blocking it.

 

Stamina isn't needed for melee, it uses it but it isn't needed. When you want to move fast, you only need to wait for the split second to get 1 stamina to start a sprint into slide into something else.

 

I'm not trying to negate the need for more attention for melee. I'm trying to negate your points about knockdowns and stamina.

Edited December 19, 2014 by Naftal

[Janzer]

Well I'm a hardcore melee player too and I know that you can time your actions so it's not a chance to block a knockdown... It's up to your own skills if you can guarantee blocking it.

 

Stamina isn't needed for melee, it uses it but it isn't needed. When you want to move fast, you only need to wait for the split second to get 1 stamina to start a sprint into slide into something else.

 

I'm not trying to negate the need for more attention for melee. I'm trying to negate your points about knockdowns and stamina.

 

I'm very aware stamina isn't an issue while you're using a stance, did a whole vid on some of the basic problems of melee combat with the dual cleavers to help point out some of the issues.

 

Waiting for a split second while you're getting mowed down from range, isn't an option. When you play T4S with massive amounts of enemies and stand still while others are at range, you get pegged.

 

It's absolutely not up to our skills alone right now. That's the thing. It is absolutely a problem with the melee mechanics, that you will not block every single attack based on skill alone. You will absolutely get cheesed out of a block. Knockdowns happen.

 

If you want to stand your ground on an idea based on your experience, great, I can't fault you for that. I'd love to see you block every single knockdown, and deal with the recovery time, when you're surrounded.

 

You should come and play in one of my livestreams. The problems are extremely apparent AND exacerbated when people are playing melee only against high level enemies that are in great number. When I do survival missions with people that doubt what I'm saying, I'm always the last to fall.

[Janzer]

Firstly OP, I think you may be taking the phrase "sword alone" a little too literally?

Melee is viable up to a certain point, but then so are just primaries, secondaries and abilities. Once you reach a certain tipping point you need to start combining them together in order to survive.

That being said, ranged weapons have advantages, so perhaps a melee only load out should give the player a slight boost in certain stats? You're carrying less, so a speed and stamina boost could apply, maybe even a small reduction in knock down and proc plus resistance to auras?

I like the suggestion of slow time, sort of like the max payne games, the higher your combo counter the more you enter "sword time" and the enemies slow down more and more. Not sure how that would work in squads though? You would probably have to reverse it, the higher the combo the faster the player becomes and maybe more elusive, resistant etc, instead of just the damage boost we get now?

 

If I'm taking the phrase too literally, DE shouldn't have pushed that idea. I've stated that. They brought it up, I'm just trying to get some more melee assistance here! Combining abilities is fine, but having to rely on them to survive, isn't melee any more, it's just plain ability play. I'm looking at you Loki/Trinity/Rhino/Limbo!

 

I don't know how a slowed time thing would work and I'm not interested in it honestly. A better melee combo counter that scaled damage would help out though.

 

At the end of the day, maybe I'm just asking for something that doesn't belong. Maybe I just play a little too hardcore, within reason :D

 

But there are things that I've stated that are valid. The mods for one, really need attention in regards to melee. No one has approached that subject, only slighted my "lack of skill".

[rockscl]

The problem is not in melee, the problem is in the ease of use attainable with guns and skills once you have your build, melee is enyojable as it is, of course, it could still present more rewarding features

Edited December 23, 2014 by rockscl

[Liminal]

Yeah, melee should be even better than guns simply because it's more risky, and right now it's not. It's clunky, slow, and painful.

 

Almost anything you can achieve by hacking at people you can do better by shooting at them.

Edited December 23, 2014 by The_Doc

[Repligon]

Buff the melee really needs is complete removal of stamina. Stamina in this game is completely unnecessary. All it does - it makes blocking utterly useless (and thus destroying core of sword vs gun combat) and forces you to use ugly gimmicks like coptering and butt-sliding.

Wallrunning? Well, we can just cap it's distance.

 

I see completely no reason to keep stamina.

 

And there is nothing wrong in infinity blocking. You can't do damage while blocking. And you still can be hurted by explosions and bullets from behind.

 

Does Jedi Academy have limitations on blocking projectiles? No. Does Metal Gear Rising have limitations on blocking bullets? No. Moreover, these games' melee play would be broken with "stamina". Just like melee in Warframe.

 

I remember someone saying that infinity aggro would be overpowered. Why don't I see aggroing Limbos everywhere?

Edited December 23, 2014 by Repligon

[Rakshal]

Wallrunning? Well, we can just cap it's distance.

Why do that? That would be completely pointless.

[Janzer]

The problem is not in melee, the problem is in the ease of use attainable with guns and skills once you have your build, melee is enyojable as it is, of course, it could still present more rewarding features

 

You can't simplify all of the issues with melee based on the ease of attaining guns. I can easily attain melee weapons too. The problems are pooled from all of the Frame utility mods, to Melee mods that are useless (go find a use for the Stamina back after kill channeling mod), to stamina restrictions that are senseless at this point. I've listed quite a lot of information that can't just be skipped over.

 

Additionally hit my profile, go look up my Dual Cleavers vid that was recent, I point out and you can see problems there as well.

 

Melee is enjoyable as it is on lower level mission and rewarding for high risk players like myself in high level missions, but we're losing ground big time per faction. We're already pretty much required to have Rage + Life Strike, and a few use Quick Thinking although I find QT to be more of an auto skill than something relying on actual skill to gain health back, but it's still valid.

 

But you go into a high level game, 30+ will do, and get knocked down repeatedly by multiple mobs, and tell me getting killed on the ground because you decided to not equip that knockdown recovery mod and instead put on the rapid resilience mod is fun and rewarding.

 

We don't have enough room in our mod slot set up.

 

I do melee only. The people that don't do melee only and use it on occasion see less of an issue with it because aren't in it all the time, feeling the effects of each faction, and seeing the power of them grow in comparison to the skills and abilities of the melee game play.

[Janzer]

blocking should still drain stamina based on dmg, but the ratio needs to be adjusted to drain less stamina than it does currently IMHO

 

"The Sword Alone" was arguably impossible prior to the mid-air direction melee attacks, but now that we have them, i would argue that melee is in a fine place (aside from pressure point being weaker than the primary or 2ndary base dmg mods)

 

[and of course i still think channeling needs work, and holding melee for a simple charge attack should be returned to all melee, not just the thrown melee weapons, and many stances/combos need adjustments]

 

personally i run around with melee only all the time (ie no guns), blocking and positioning are important of course, but it's completely feasible

 

Sword Alone wasn't arguably impossible at all. I have been doing that setup for some time. Vids on my channel back to when I was doing Kogake after they were newly introduced, with my Volt.

 

Channeling ABSOLUTELY needs work! The mods cost is horrendous! There's no point to some of them at all in their current format!

 

I do melee only, no abilities often. It's feasible, but we're losing ground on ranged and ability play. It needs more attention.

[-SLX-J3tAc3]

Sword Alone wasn't arguably impossible at all. I have been doing that setup for some time. Vids on my channel back to when I was doing Kogake after they were newly introduced, with my Volt.

 

Channeling ABSOLUTELY needs work! The mods cost is horrendous! There's no point to some of them at all in their current format!

 

I do melee only, no abilities often. It's feasible, but we're losing ground on ranged and ability play. It needs more attention.

Good stuff, Janz.

[LazerusKI]

The one problem that i have with melee is just one thing...

Bosses.

 

Nearly all of the reworked bosses have that artificial fight-length-stretcher. hitzones that open every few seconds, phases etc.

and yeah...none of them can get hit by melee.

so you are forced to take them out with a gun

Edited January 6, 2015 by LazerusKI

[ZzVinniezZ]

add homing melee target like in archwing would be nice.

[IfritKajiTora]

The option with melee damage reduction is here: 

4:10 channeling ON.  Armor get on the Warframe reducing incoming damage but draining energy.