Logic And Warframe - Observations

[Aspari]

Obligatory "Who cares about logic? It's a video game!" I already know for certain some people are going to say this.

 

 

This is a topic about "making more sense", not "making absolute sense." Gameplay sometimes loses its charm when all the restrictions of real life apply to something that's not meant to be realistic. That topic is realism. Logic is something separate. Unrealistic things can still make sense.

 

Some specific things that don't make much sense at all include:

 

 - Spikes in speed when sliding, either in the air or on the ground

 - Direction melee propulsion

 - Speed gained from sliding melee attacks, a.k.a. "coptering"

 - "Catapulting" off of walls at very high speeds.

 

These make no sense because nothing about the design of Warframes, save for Zephyr when it comes to sliding and directional melee propulsion, suggests that Warframes are even capable of this type of mobility. It'd make a lot more visual sense if there was something about the Warframe's design that suggests that they're capable of moving the way they do when performing these actions.

 

Here's an example of mobility explained by design:

 

The ARS Suit can only slide like that at the speed it goes because of the suit's design. The suit has propulsion jets and specially designed plating to make quick sliding possible (as well as various other actions). In Vanquish you can do the air sliding that's present in Warframe at a speed one would expect. The main difference? It makes sense in Vanquish because of the suit. It doesn't make any sense in Warframe because Warframes have nothing about them that would suggest they're even remotely capable of that type of mobility.

 

 

 

 - Gore effects

 

Countless times where I've shot a Grineer Lancer in the head his right or left arm gets popped off. Area damage is just wonky and gore effects are very inconsistent. If I shoot a man in the head why does his arm fly off?

 

Also, why do some weapons that used to dismember before damage 2.0 not dismember anymore? (Looking at you, Ichor.)

 

 

 - "Bleed" procs on shielded entities and robots.

 

If the bullet doesn't actually hit me, why do I bleed?

Why do robots bleed? They're not Metal Gears nor do they bleed any other time than when a proc is active on them.

Edited January 12, 2015 by Aspari

[_FrostPrime_]

Logic makes or breaks the immersion. I don't like saying it... but DE clearly does not have a solid grasp on this.

 

If the immersion is broken, the game is not fun, or exciting, in any way you present it.

[(XBOX)Nlandry]

for coptering i'll argue adding weight to momentum you moving a certain speed then you throw more weight going at the same speed you should speed up. 

wall-running maybe tenno energy works like chakra in naruto were it can be manipulated to do superhuman things or a real world example free-running.

For the rest I've got nothing especially the dismemberment except that the animators only programmed one or two one general death animation spanning all weapons or one class of weapons.

[Mcl_Blue]

Unrealistic things can still make sense.

Thank god someone said it.

 

As for the content of the post... I agree with the "Bleed" point, and kinda the "Gore" point (it's definitely something that needs to be fixed/improved, but it's not like it was a deliberate choice on the part of the devs, unlike the "Bleed" point). I do not agree, though, with the "Mobility" point. Like, your reasoning is right, it makes sense, but I don't think those are things that should change, not at this point.

[7grims]

I loved the "this makes sense" wars when we had the exca nerf/buff (berf).

 

"light doesn't bend corners" said joe and many others, referring to radial blind

and nowadays we have teleporting light beams that rise from the ground and hit enemies wherever they are.

Edited January 12, 2015 by 7grims

[Xennocide420]

Space Magic ™

[DiabolusUrsus]

Regardless of personal preference on the issues at hand, I think we can all agree that increasing the *logical* presentation of the game as part of the "year of quality" would be either beneficial or at the very least not detrimental. 

I'm hoping to see some smoothing out of sliding and some expansion of directional melee (aerial combat, by extension) with the advent of things like Parkour/Movement 2.0. It would also be nice to see some more "cinematic" touches added to movement. Sprinting is useful, but it's really dull. Having a tangible momentum system that does more than force you to roll upon landing would be nice. 

 

Gore effects... gore effects gore effects gore effects. We need more of these, and they need to be better. Less than a lancer's arm getting popped off by a headshot... why does said arm shrink by what seems like two or three times in volume the second it does? Why does slamming a sword into a Crewman's toe slice him in half, but a heavy cut brought down across his torso simply cause him to keel over dead? More so than simply adding logic to Warframe's combat gibs, we need to see them expanded. They make kills satisfying, which is a huge plus to how long the game stays interesting.  

 

I definitely agree with you as far as bleed procs go; there are other ways to go about making health count for something. I assume that MOAs bleed for the same reason they're subject to Soul Punch, but until we get official lore on what exactly goes into Corpus Proxies I'm just going to chalk it up to DE not having the time to go in and fix the little inconsistencies. Still, it'd be nice to have those cleared up. 

 

A small bit of my "Immersion" wishlist:

+ Better sprinting animations rather than a sped-up jog cycle.
+ Aerial attacks that are a bit more intuitive to land, and movement-based attacks that are affected by stances.

+ Improved gore including head-popping, a wider variety of bisections, and full-body explosive gibs. 

+ More frequent use of "sync-kills" (like what Kubrows both feral and domesticated can do to the AI) both in instances of NPC factions fighting, and triggered occasionally by the player taking fatal damage. Gone are the days of simply toppling over into a downed state! Know exactly what got you there!

 

etc.

 

One of the game's greatest strengths is its presentation, so I don't think it would take too many people working at a steady but unhurried pace to improve that substantially before the end of the year. 

[direcyphre]

Sadly, any sense of logic is irrelevant no matter how hard you try simply by the existence of all of our magical warframe abilities. It doesn't matter how realistic it should  or shouldn't appear, we're still disintegrating entire legions by spewing corrosive stuff out of our hands, shooting spheres of energy that collect other bullets/beams/projectiles of any kind to make an explosion, and teleporting in every imaginable way.

 

This is a fantasy game, and fantasies don't require logic beyond a game's own constructs.

[_FrostPrime_]

Regardless of personal preference on the issues at hand, I think we can all agree that increasing the *logical* presentation of the game as part of the "year of quality" would be either beneficial or at the very least not detrimental. 

I'm hoping to see some smoothing out of sliding and some expansion of directional melee (aerial combat, by extension) with the advent of things like Parkour/Movement 2.0. It would also be nice to see some more "cinematic" touches added to movement. Sprinting is useful, but it's really dull. Having a tangible momentum system that does more than force you to roll upon landing would be nice. 

 

Gore effects... gore effects gore effects gore effects. We need more of these, and they need to be better. Less than a lancer's arm getting popped off by a headshot... why does said arm shrink by what seems like two or three times in volume the second it does? Why does slamming a sword into a Crewman's toe slice him in half, but a heavy cut brought down across his torso simply cause him to keel over dead? More so than simply adding logic to Warframe's combat gibs, we need to see them expanded. They make kills satisfying, which is a huge plus to how long the game stays interesting.  

 

I definitely agree with you as far as bleed procs go; there are other ways to go about making health count for something. I assume that MOAs bleed for the same reason they're subject to Soul Punch, but until we get official lore on what exactly goes into Corpus Proxies I'm just going to chalk it up to DE not having the time to go in and fix the little inconsistencies. Still, it'd be nice to have those cleared up. 

 

A small bit of my "Immersion" wishlist:

+ Better sprinting animations rather than a sped-up jog cycle.

+ Aerial attacks that are a bit more intuitive to land, and movement-based attacks that are affected by stances.

+ Improved gore including head-popping, a wider variety of bisections, and full-body explosive gibs. 

+ More frequent use of "sync-kills" (like what Kubrows both feral and domesticated can do to the AI) both in instances of NPC factions fighting, and triggered occasionally by the player taking fatal damage. Gone are the days of simply toppling over into a downed state! Know exactly what got you there!

 

etc.

 

One of the game's greatest strengths is its presentation, so I don't think it would take too many people working at a steady but unhurried pace to improve that substantially before the end of the year. 

 

 

*looking at Rhino Stomp's description*

 

"Rhino stomps with force sufficient to disrupt time, tumbling enemies around him in stasis."

[Aspari]

Sadly, any sense of logic is irrelevant no matter how hard you try simply by the existence of all of our magical warframe abilities. It doesn't matter how realistic it should  or shouldn't appear, we're still disintegrating entire legions by spewing corrosive stuff out of our hands, shooting spheres of energy that collect other bullets/beams/projectiles of any kind to make an explosion, and teleporting in every imaginable way.

 

This is a fantasy game, and fantasies don't require logic beyond a game's own constructs.

This isn't about realism, though.

 

As I've said before, unrealistic things can still make sense.

[Thaumatos]

This isn't about realism, though.

 

As I've said before, unrealistic things can still make sense.

Exactly.  Just because you make a fantasy game with magic and unicorns doesn't mean you can't have humans and swords.

 

Its like Star Wars.  George Lucas never actually invented any of those devices or technologies you see in the movies, but he gives plausible explanations that grant the series the illusion of reality.

 

How do we travel between planets?  Not many people seem to care about that, but we have a ship...that seems to be reason enough.  If we all showed up on horseback then I'm sure people would start questioning the sanity of the game's setting.

[Awazx]

Logic and Warframe is a contradiction of terms.

 

Do not strain.

[Phatose]

Bleed and shields:  What makes you sure it didn't hit you at all?  Shields don't change velocity or direction of an attack - shoot two shielded enemies with a weapon with shoot through, and you'll see this.  They aren't hard barriers that stop a bullet cold, and given how many other things shields fail against - toxin, knockdown, pull impacts - this is a discredited model.

 

Shields don't stop the bullet from hitting you, not exactly.  They seem to function closer to a short term phase, ala Limbo - the attack is pushed into the void temporarily, but imperfections in the phase still let things though.  We could explain bleeding as an interaction between the Tenno's void connection and the phase that otherwise protects from the attack. 

 

Fan wank, sure, but then so is the idea that shields stop the bullet.  It's not explained in lore how they function.

[Aspari]

Bleed and shields:  What makes you sure it didn't hit you at all?  Shields don't change velocity or direction of an attack - shoot two shielded enemies with a weapon with shoot through, and you'll see this.  They aren't hard barriers that stop a bullet cold, and given how many other things shields fail against - toxin, knockdown, pull impacts - this is a discredited model.

 

Shields don't stop the bullet from hitting you, not exactly.  They seem to function closer to a short term phase, ala Limbo - the attack is pushed into the void temporarily, but imperfections in the phase still let things though.  We could explain bleeding as an interaction between the Tenno's void connection and the phase that otherwise protects from the attack. 

 

Fan wank, sure, but then so is the idea that shields stop the bullet.  It's not explained in lore how they function.

You're definitely right about the lack of lore and explanation of how shields work. I'm going off other energy shields because before Damage 2.0 came out they worked just like any other regular energy shield you'd find in Halo or Section 8.

 

If they truly don't stop the bullets from really hitting you then I'd say we have really crap shields compared to the bullet reflecting device Fortune and Ocelot had in Metal Gear Solid 2.

[DiabolusUrsus]

I would rather see shields stop punch-through than see bleed procs continue to ignore them. 

[-SLX-J3tAc3]

You guys do know we use the same shielding Corpus Crewmen use, right? We don't even use proto-shields, according to the wiki.

[Phatose]

You're definitely right about the lack of lore and explanation of how shields work. I'm going off other energy shields because before Damage 2.0 came out they worked just like any other regular energy shield you'd find in Halo or Section 8.

 

If they truly don't stop the bullets from really hitting you then I'd say we have really crap shields compared to the bullet reflecting device Fortune and Ocelot had in Metal Gear Solid 2.

 

Systems change, and even the energy shields in Star Trek were not magic - ship would still shake.  There's no shortage of energy shields that aren't perfect in fiction.

 

As for Ocelot.....questionable analogy.  What's being shot at it is not reasonably expected to be equivalent, and that might be like saying a 15th century knight had better armor then a battleship because it would stop a crossbow bolt, while the battleship armor couldn't stop a 22 ton shell.

[Auramaru]

NO. NO MOBILITY 2.0. 

Remove my copter: I remove your legs.

Remove my directional-propulsion melee: I'll directionally-propel my fist into your face.

Remove my wall sling-shots: I'll... shoot... shots...!!

I don't know, man. I'm heavy into this game and I love copterring, I love both my directional melee and my copter.  I also love the wall sling-shots.

 

I know that this thread isn't all about the illogical mobility stuff, so I won't shut you down: because what you say is a good point.

However, your good point will affect the game in a way that I don't like.

 

I'm just going to say this: if I wanted hyper-realism (hyper-logical), I would play Call of Duty, where a super soldier is actually weighed down by all his gear, can't jump for S#&$, can't run for S#&$, can't shoot for S#&$...

 

I play Warframe to go fast, to shoot everything, to breathe fire, ya know?.... I want this game to be unrealistic, I want it to be illogical, I want it to not make sense.  Because I want to have to figure it out.

 

I'm just not heavily affected by the minor stuff.  Maybe because I'm used to it, but the illogical/unrealistic nature of the many things in this game have never really made me stop and say, "That was stupid, that ruined the flow of things, I'm done with this crap.".

 

When things don't make sense, or I hit an INSANELY FAST wall slingshot, I'm like "Holy crap, that was awesome! Dude, did you see that?!" 

Or if I shoot some guy in the head and his arm goes flying off, "Oh, nasty."

 

*shrug* I think you're playing the wrong game man : /

[Cidolfus]

Most changes that could happen to make things in this universe have more logical sense would end up enraging the playerbase.

 

Directional melee can easily be "fixed" by giving all warframes some sort of "propulsion" effect on their backs or their feet of some sort. However, coptering simply can't be given any sort of logic, and thus would have to either be heavily changed or straight up removed. Same goes with the slide-jump. That would have to be changed heavily to make any sort of sense.

 

Basically, at this point, we're too far into Warframe to do such drastic changes.

[Aspari]

NO. NO MOBILITY 2.0. 

Remove my copter: I remove your legs.

Remove my directional-propulsion melee: I'll directionally-propel my fist into your face.

Remove my wall sling-shots: I'll... shoot... shots...!!

I don't know, man. I'm heavy into this game and I love copterring, I love both my directional melee and my copter.  I also love the wall sling-shots.

 

I know that this thread isn't all about the illogical mobility stuff, so I won't shut you down: because what you say is a good point.

However, your good point will affect the game in a way that I don't like.

 

I'm just going to say this: if I wanted hyper-realism (hyper-logical), I would play Call of Duty, where a super soldier is actually weighed down by all his gear, can't jump for S#&$, can't run for S#&$, can't shoot for S#&$...

 

I play Warframe to go fast, to shoot everything, to breathe fire, ya know?.... I want this game to be unrealistic, I want it to be illogical, I want it to not make sense.  Because I want to have to figure it out.

 

I'm just not heavily affected by the minor stuff.  Maybe because I'm used to it, but the illogical/unrealistic nature of the many things in this game have never really made me stop and say, "That was stupid, that ruined the flow of things, I'm done with this crap.".

 

When things don't make sense, or I hit an INSANELY FAST wall slingshot, I'm like "Holy crap, that was awesome! Dude, did you see that?!" 

Or if I shoot some guy in the head and his arm goes flying off, "Oh, nasty."

 

*shrug* I think you're playing the wrong game man : /

No, I think you're just getting the wrong message here.

 

Something making sense won't make it any less fun. It's a fallacy to think that it will. All it'll do is make it more fun or not affect it at all. What if I told you that the only reason you're able to catapult off the wall like that was because of a device in your Warframe's feet and hands? It wouldn't change the functionality of any of it. But it would explain why you can do it other than "DE programmed it this way."

[Vadrigos]

I loved the "this makes sense" wars when we had the exca nerf/buff (berf).

 

"light doesn't bend corners" said joe and many others, referring to radial blind

and nowadays we have teleporting light beams that rise from the ground and hit enemies wherever they are.

 

No, but it goes straight through things. If Excal's Radial blind has an outpout similar to a nuclear bomb, then it should go through everything and saturate the environment...

[Thaumatos]

I'm just going to say this: if I wanted hyper-realism (hyper-logical), I would play Call of Duty

I might just have to make this my permanent signature on every forum I ever go on until the end of my life...just for the laughs...

[Auramaru]

No, I think you're just getting the wrong message here.

 

Something making sense won't make it any less fun. It's a fallacy to think that it will. All it'll do is make it more fun or not affect it at all. What if I told you that the only reason you're able to catapult off the wall like that was because of a device in your Warframe's feet and hands? It wouldn't change the functionality of any of it. But it would explain why you can do it other than "DE programmed it this way."

Ah, okay. So you don't want to change the mechanics, you want the affects of our movements to be matched visually by something that would make it logical. Okay.

 

 

I might just have to make this my permanent signature on every forum I ever go on until the end of my life...just for the laughs...

 

Can't tell if laughing at me or with me... My point was: CoD has that crappy, gritty war-feel to it. While it is a crappy game, most of the CoD games make sense in terms of logic (except killstreaks... and shotguns... they don't know how shotguns work)

Edited January 12, 2015 by AuraMau

[letir]

To explain mobility contradictions, we need only 3 things:

 

1. Super-jump for everyone. Tenno are superhumans, what's why they can jump so far.

2. Unique Tenno melee/channeling arts, which allow to do something cool with swords only.

3. Shiny butt on every frame (for fast sliding).

[Aspari]

3. Shiny butt on every frame (for fast sliding).

Oh god my sides