Coming Soon: Devstream #45!

[[DE]Rebecca]

Join us this Friday for Devstream #45!

Who: Rebecca will be on the couch with Geoff, Steve, Sheldon and Scott!

What: We will be doing a Q&A Session with questions from this thread.

Prizes? Why yes, we will be giving away 3 x 1000 Platinum Prizes!

Where: Find us at: http://twitch.tv/Warframe

When: Join us Friday, January 23 at 2 p.m. EST! Time Zone Converter: http://www.worldtimebuddy.com/

This thread will close at 10 a.m. on January 23. Get your questions in! 

[Somedude1000]

Can't wait!

 

Questions;

 

ASSUMING THE REMOVAL OF SERRATION HAPPENS, WOULD IT CAUSE SCALING TO BE RETHOUGHT?

 

Serration and its gang allows us to push our weapons to let us experience content further than usual, assuming serration etx is removed, would enemy scaling be rethought to a specific level max, or will player item scaling to the content we face - ever become a thing? Infinite scaling means there's no certain and reliable leap off point where content can be balanced to, 

 

CLAN DOWNSIZING, IS IT AROUNDTHEBLOCK-BEHINDTHESOFA?

 

If clan downsizing were to be considered, would it be a paid option, and is there a set timeframe to when we might expect this option?

 

WARFRAME TRAILERS, OUTDATED, SOME ARE, NEW ONES SOON, WE HOPE?

 

Some warframe trailers have been around for almost two years now, will the new year allow us to have updated warframe trailers showcasing them and their abilities? This is because many of the warframes have experienced changes and have now evolved beyond what was shown in the older warframe trailers, defeating their purpose of helping players choose the frames they would like to play

 

LOOTING 

 

Looting as a whole has been fundamentally the same for quite some time, are there any plans to improve and change looting soon? This is especially important because warframe has been said to be a "loot driven" game, there has to be more to the loot system than "equip carrier"

 

i.e, perhaps one player picking up a drop registers the item foe he whole team, or perhaps the dependence on carrier to loot is remedied
 

Irrelevant; I like trains, this is irrelevant to the questions, but it feels good to say it.

Edited January 21, 2015 by Somedude1000

[Krotalon]

What's the status of the Focus System?

[S.T.M.P.D]

Can we talk about Grineer Commanders and Switch Teleport? It's no fun at all.

[cyrus106]

When will the rotation C nerf/bug be addressed? People dont want forma keys and cores in rotation c

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/367980-void-drop-tables-rotation-c-was-stealth-nerfed-please-raise-awareness-of-this-issue/

[Iraetus]

What's the status of melee charge attacks?

[Renegade343]

What made you decide on the Ember changes listed in the Ember: Surviving Canadian Winters thread? 

 

Would be interesting to see the reasoning for this, and thus get a more solid answer on how you all see Ember as. 

[Zareek]

Any chance we will get an improved kubrow AI?

[immolator1001]

What can you show us about the new frame?

 

 

 

 

Recently there has been a lot of talk about veteran players getting burnt out and having nothing to do. Do you think this is just because it has been about a month since the game's last large update, or do you think it represent a more systematic problem with the game?

[Imaru]

You discussed possibly adding a slot for utiliy mods or augment mods on warframes in a past devstream. Where has that discussion gone and when will we have a final descision?

[MechaKnight]

I can't wait for the devstream! I'm more interested about balance and progression more than anything else. Hopefully you can cover that.

 

 

The short list of topics, and questions associated with the topic.

 

Resolution of power creep. How will we balance the game to our players?

 

"Press 4 to win/survive", the case of radial damage abilities. Will we see more use in our other abilities? Will we see more utility from damage abilities that fall off over time?

 

A reduction in the grind. Can we please have a reduction in the severity of the forced bi-weekly grind race Baro Ki'Teer has created for us?

 

The reintroduction of limited availability mods, and the improvement of second-best options. Can we please have more event mods released into circulation? Can we receive a buff in mods like Rifle Aptitude and Piercing Hit?

 

False choices. Fleeting Expertise, Heavy Caliber, Split Chamber. Why shouldn't I use these mods? Marathon, Diamond Skin, Warm Coat. Why should I use these mods?

 

Difficulty modes and progression. Can we see an expansion in what players perceive to be "endgame?" Can the solar system be made more fun and significant for new players? Can progress be implemented into the game?

 

Enemy scaling, variety, and intelligence. Why are Grineer so obscenely tanky? Can they be put in line with other factions? Once the rebalance takes effect, can we see more interesting enemy strategy and intelligence? Can we expect more enemies who are more complex?

 

Coptering, Wall-vaulting, air melee, sprinting, sliding, and movement in general. Our mobility makes combat a bit strange. Can we see additional mobility in enemies to compete with us?

 

Is stealth ever really an option? No. Can stealth become a more viable option?

 

Is there a reason to play anything but void and some choice resource farming nodes? No. Could there be more incentive to play across the solar system? Could we see a greater importance in game modes that are not defense, interception, or survival?

 

 

 

The expanded list of topics I want to see covered... (minimized for convenience)

Resolution of power creep. The only challenge in this game for veterans is found in infinite game modes.We are able to trivialize all enemies through the highest level zones in the game in under a second of gunfire from a decent weapon, and can destroy armies of enemies with the press of #4.

 

 

Whatever they decide to do with straight-up damage mods (like Serration), it will definitely incorporate a healthy look at how damage scales and how enemies scale so as not to have changes break the current system.  I'm all for a removal of Serration and stacking base damage increases on rank, but they haven't set anything in stone just yet.

 

 

As for the rest of our little back and forth, most of us are just miffed at the fact that it has gotten so out of hand.  I think the biggest culprit is the augments that allow skills to do extra damage.  I didn't beef my xcal's damage at all and I was in a Draco PUG with some Oberon who used the Smite Infusion augment.  Man I could wail on their junk like no tomorrow.  We got up to round 4 and stopped at the key but we could have kept going.  There was no signs of a slowdown.

 

I think its safe to say that DE should balance the damage output around what they consider to be balanced content.  If they want decked-out frames to be able to nuke rooms until level 40, they're going to have to consider balancing content beyond that point.  The simple fact that your can press a button and clear everything demands that players seek a greater challenge for greater rewards.  And they do.  But they seek it in what isn't considered balanced content.

 

 

The team synergy augments are neither a problem nor are they necessary--this kind of killing spree was possible before syndicate mods. I can stack three power strength mods alongside Corrosive Projection to gain the desired effect. What's really the problem is the amount of damage enemies can take before they die versus the amount we can dish out, as well as how we dish out damage.

 

We can gain a level of power on our weapons and abilities most things in the solar system are not able to handle. Let's look at a few quickly thrown together builds to understand the problem.

 

Experiment Section

 

The Weapon Conundrum

Balance between new players, old players, and the effect of base damage + multishot

I will only be comparing burst DPS

 

Mk-1 Braton with no mods: http://goo.gl/TVJdVx ; 140.40

Mk-1 Braton with ideal mods: http://goo.gl/ay8UlQ ; 8442.60

Mk-1 Braton missing base damage and multishot mods: http://goo.gl/1S1y4N ; 1033.44

Boltor Prime with no mods: http://goo.gl/pqtu05 ; 577.60

Boltor Prime with ideal mods: http://goo.gl/aQlOYw ; 34725.60

Boltor Prime missing base damage and multishot mods: http://goo.gl/kIRuK4 ; 4250.56

 

I only used the Boltor Prime as an example of a decent "end game" weapon that mods similarly to the Mk-1 Braton. It is by no means the best or worst example, simply the easiest to translate. I made three builds for each: no mods, ideal mods, and the same "ideal" set, with the core cookie cutter mods removed.

 

The result: the full kit of mods we can apply to a generic non-crit damage gun will multiply damage output by 60x. However, if the base damage and multishot mods were removed as developers were intending--being cookie-cutter mods with no variety--the damage multiple would only be increased 7x. Clearly, our mods are an amazing factor in the damage dealt between players using the same weapon. As for "bad gun" compared to "good gun", the Boltor Prime is 4x better in dealing burst DPS than the Mk-1 Braton. Overall, when comparing a min-maxed Boltor Prime to a new Mk-1 Braton, experienced players tend to deal around 247x as much damage as a fresh beginner.

 

Despite being a shooter game, Warframe balances like an MMO. The trouble with Warframe is, while MMOs tend to separate players heavily across different world regions and only entice them back to farm craft materials they could buy from other players on the market, Warframe throws all kinds of players together into alerts and missions. The solar system has some sort of separation, but it can easily be defeated by taxi'ing players past it all. Alerts also host a wide range of players, and are also susceptible to the taxi. This means Warframe has to struggle to accommodate so many ranges of player strength per mission. In general, it just means letting highly powered veterans stomp content without any difficulty+reward scaling.

 

Radial Conundrum

For our nuke ability, I will propose Excalibur's Radial Javelin. One calculation with Overextended, and one without. Both are assumed to use Stretch.  I will apply Intensify, Transient Fortitude, and Blind Rage rank 2 into the calculation. Unless specified, assume all mods are maxed.

The below are simply damage calculations. I will also use the radial circular area expression area = pi*r^2 to give an idea of the relative theoretical killing capacity of each configuration. This area will be multiplied by damage.

 

With Overextended: 1520 damage in 58.75 meters ; 16.48 million damage capacity

Without: 2120 damage in 36.25 meters ; 8.75 million damage capacity

 

It's a no-brainer that despite the damage disadvantage given by Overextended, it's practically an auto-include into nuke builds because it increases damage potential by nearly double. This is simply because range is an exponentially important component to a nuke. The damage is secondary. There's currently no penalty for spamming radials through walls with infinite punchthrough.

 

 

Enemy Durability

For our test subject, I will propose a Grineer Bombard unit. It will start at level 40.

 

I will calculate its stats using this figure: http://imgur.com/gt3Tjc0

 

Health: 5832

Armor: 1322.72

 

Using the equation here http://warframe.wikia.com/wiki/Armor

Effective health = nominal health * ( 1 + net armor / 300 )

 

Effective Health: 31545.68

 

The below comparisons are not factoring Damage 2.0 modifiers.

 

At maximum effective health, the heavy unit would not even last against one whole second of damage from an optimized Boltor Prime. This "high level" enemy is fodder to us veterans.

 

The same Bombard would last less than 4 seconds against a maximized Mk-1 Braton. It goes in line that the Boltor Prime is 4 times as good as the Mk-1 Braton. The enemy is still barely noticeable though, and this is a heavy unit of a level you'd find on planet Ceres.

 

Against an unmodded Boltor Prime, said enemy would last 64.6 seconds. Far too long. However, just removing the base damage and multishot from the ideal build, the enemy would last against gunfire for 7.4 seconds. Maybe the developers have a point about Serration and Split Chamber. This is long enough to experience the enemy. Maybe even long enough to see it do something. The Mk-1 Braton would probably take 4 times longer to be around 30 seconds of shooting. Pretty long time. In general, new player weapons are perhaps too weak compared to the usual weapons. I mean, the Lato is terrible. Perhaps alongside the mod and damage tweaks, bad weapons can be brought within a closer margin of good weapons. So I don't need to feel like I've betrayed someone every time I try to invite a friend to this game.

 

Now for abilities. Let's assume Overextended is being used on the Radial Javelin build I mentioned.

Since the enemy at level 40 has an EHP of 31.5k, it would take quite a few Radial Javelins to down it. Twenty one of them. That doesn't seem like the "Press 4 to win" I was talking about. However, what about Corrosive Projection. Four of them. Well, now the enemy has no armor. The Bombard's EHP is only it's calculated HP on its level now. That's just less than 6k HP. This only requires 4 Overextended Radial Javelins to kill. This is the strongest enemy that will spawn on non-scaling missions on the highest planet node.

 

What does this mean though? Considering we generally run maximum efficiency to carry around 6 canned nukes without the need to refill on Warframes not using Flow as well, we can easily clear a room with no trouble regardless of how many enemies are in it on the highest non-infinitely scaling node in the solar system. If we kill anything at all (which we will), and pick up any energy orbs we see (which we will--or not with energy packs and syndicate buffs), we can clear maps forever. In any non-scaling mission, even on the "hardest" difficulty.

 

At least, that's how it is for grineer, the durable enemy in the solar system. We used to farm Corpus on Viver before those pesky nullifiers came along. They didn't have armor. Just apply the no-armor logic in our grineer experience and it's easy to see how trivial the corpus were.

 

 

 

With the above summed up, we understand the game is not challenging for veterans even on the highest level nodes in the solar system and void, provided infinite scaling is not in action. We also know how much the "cookie cutter" core mods of the weapon contribute to our imbalance between new and old players and make balance difficult. Radial damage nukes really do win everywhere except infinite content. Grineer are indeed insanely Ruk'ing durable compared to everything else, but we can still trivialize them. What are possible solutions?

 

Well, change is possible, so many solutions can be considered. Devstream #44 looked promising, as did the overview.

 

Well, assuming the speculated damage, enemy, status, and weapon rebalances take everything into account with precision we can only dream about until we see it, player weapons and mods should first be balanced to have less of a gap between their ability, with more viability in choice between everything; weapons, mods, elements, anything you can remember. Next, use this standardized expectation of applied power to balance the durability of enemies across the solar system. Current Grineer armor scaling needs to be scrapped, it's pure madness. Once these elements are targeted, gameplay can start taking a form where we actually do feel more challenge across the solar system's many planets. Also, rewards need to be scaled upwards for challenge. There is seriously no incentive for going to higher level planets--we're practically making easy mode the best option unless the dropped void keys differ between nodes.

 

What about abilities? This is an abilities thread, and one of the game's largest facets are abilities. Our concern is mostly behind radial (spherical) damage abilities, especially "ultimates", usually ability #4. There are many ways to solve that situation. Considering how similar most instant-damage radial abilities are in comparison to each other, they could be made more unique by trading a portion of damage for unique custom statuses and effects (offensive/defensive/supportive). As powerful as Nova is, her participation in the game is no longer as game-breakingly destructive as it once was. Alternatively, abilities can keep their original stats, and be balanced more closely to the game by tweaking the values of abilities mods which work with said abilities. Yet another choice is to just balance ability stats along with the rest of the heap, while making a choice as to whether they are powerful yet limited, or more average within the kit and just as unlimited as before. Even better, bump all #4 abilities to #5 abilities, and implement something balanced for the new #4. Make now ability #5 run off something that is not energy. A completely different limitation that is more suitable to an epic room-clearing mega ability.

 

In short, level 40 heavy grineer units (Bombards) typically die within less than a second of gunfire from a decent weapon. If you're using the same build on an Mk-1 Braton, it will only take 4 seconds. Radial Javelin and other nukes can still clear any and every non-endless mission with max range and max efficiency.

 

"Press 4 to win/survive", the case of radial damage abilities. Enemy scaling plays a part in this since any hit from a well-geared player tends to annihilate the map if it's a non-infinite mission. In the case on infinite gameplay, the situation changes--we do not kill enemies using radials, but still choose to spam them due to how deadly enemy hits are. The constant crowd control is really our only means of survival in infinite content, hence the unpopularity of damage warframes compared to utility warframes. Between trivializing all non-endless content, and being the only margin of survival due to short stun in endless content, radial damage abilities need a look into how to make them more helpful beyond their damage falloff, as well as how to lessen their destructive effect in non-infinite content. Also, abilities #1, 2, and 3 for said warframes need an investigation as to why spamming #4 is more favorable than using any of those abilities. It usually has to do with having an X-ray hit everything within a 2*pi*r^3 sphere, which is simply exponentially more effective for only a linear cost.

 

A reduction in the grind. I've never seen this many players post burn-out and rage threads. A likely source is the way our gameplay focus shifted starting from August of last year, pushing into now. Syndicates give us a daily grind, but the most stressful grind is probably Baro Ki'Teer, the void trader. Players are pushing themselves to play nothing but void in their time to save up to buy his entire inventory when he shows up, and the stakes are high since it is assumed everything he will have for sale is new for that particular appearance. The new importance to grinding void keys is also putting stress on the methods used to obtain keys. That said, changes should be made to the merchant, such as a price reduction, more time between his appearances, and appearances where he is carrying a duplicate of a previous merchant stock, giving loyal players less to worry about when he appears.

 

The reintroduction of limited availability mods, and the improvement of second-best options.Limited edition event content is always annoying to players who've missed them, but the most major ones are the mods acquired in said events. Only Lethal Torrent and the Cicero Crisis (toxin/status) mods have been introduced back into the system, but plans need to be made to introduce the sets for Tethra (shock/status), Breeding Grounds (fire/status), Cryotic Front (ice/status), and the slash and puncture sets (120% physical damage type). The antiquated mods that generally gave status and physical damage in the past are showing their age compared to the power creep. If you've missed the event to get the 120% puncture mod, the second best option is 30%, which simply isn't worthwhile. Similarly, the standalone status mod is only 15% for most weapons, which is very lackluster compared to the magnitude found on the combination event mod. The physical damage mods should be boosted to 100%, and the standalone status mods should be boosted to 100-120% to compare with the event standards and give those latecomers an inferior but tolerable base of mods to work with in case they missed events.

 

False choices. It's great that the developers see that base damage and multishot as they are implemented in the game now are must-have staples to our builds. However there are similar mod problems in warframes. Steel Fiber isn't worthwhile on all but a few warframes, most notably Valkyr. Fleeting Expertise may as well be a core mod given that the way it increases our ability use persistently, and allows us to use our abilities for a very small cost. You wouldn't really prefer (Primed) Flow over this, you'd simply choose to use it alongside FE. We wouldn't use Diamond Skin or Antitoxin over ability mods or Redirection/Vitality, and not many of us use Rush given the prevalence of coptering.

 

Difficulty modes and progression. There is no non-infinite zone which could challenge veterans, and neither is there an incentive to progress through the game if we could just request a taxi. What we need are fine mechanics for progression, such as those found in this thread.

 

 

Enemy scaling, variety, and intelligence. I've already mentioned how trivial most enemies are as of now, that problem will get fixed eventually. Afterwards, what of their scaling? Grineer armor scaling makes this faction obscenely durable compared to anything else in the game. Scaling for grineer armor is all the scaling anyone needs to be concerned with. The rate at which they become bullet sponges is too severe. When damage between players and enemies is balanced, this armor scaling should be revisited to put grineer on more equal terms to the other factions. Once that's done, some work could be done to give enemies more cooperation within their ranks to pose a greater obstacle, as well as grant more enemies a range of movement that can compare to our own.

 

Coptering, Wall-vaulting, air melee, sprinting, sliding, and movement in general. We definitely have more movement than our enemies, and probably more movement than what was intended in the scheme of maps. However, the amount of grind in this game's long term sense of progression is making quick completion a necessity. Air melee allows us to move quite freely in case coptering is removed, but there is still something to desire in our movement compared to the game. It seems as if the maps and enemies were built around a cover-shooter mentality, but our movement is more akin to platforming games than it is to shooter games. The game becomes a kind of shooting gallery / platformer combo, and the advertising of this game seems to imply the game should be more akin to a more ground-based playstyle that emphasizes gunplay and stealth more than the current scheme of rushing everything with coptering and power spam.

 

Is stealth ever really an option? No. This is completely forgivable in infinitely scaling mission types (survival/defense/interception), but kind of questionable in other game modes. Our enemies are not really dangerous enough to want to avoid, their ability to detect us usually voids most attempts at stealth for non-invisible players, enemies spawn constantly without notice, and in general it is far more profitable to smash everything in the first place. This kind of gameplay is okay for the audience who doesn't want any more than this, but some players do want a more tactical mission than simply rescue, which is pretty good but can still be rushed quite expediently. At least the option to play with stealth is there within that one room.

 

Is there a reason to play anything but void and some choice resource farming nodes? No. There is no reason to play the excellent rescue game mode if you're not donating specters to alliance rails. We only play on planets in the solar system to gather resources periodically. Progressing through the star map is tedious, unrewarding, and meaningless in the grand scheme of things. Most of us haven't even played Corpus Hijack, and releasing an event would only solve that for a week before we don't touch it again. The game on the larger scale needs more fun, incentive, and reward, and less forced grind.

 

 

 

As harsh as the criticism sounds, I still like this game and the developers. For the most part I like the theme, the art, and I'm okay with the business model at this time. It's a great game, and I probably wouldn't have stayed given the current criticism if I didn't believe it was possible to change the situation for the better. Here's to hoping for great new quality implementation in year 2015.

Edited January 21, 2015 by MechaKnight

[RIOT]

WEAPON BALANCE

 

Do you have any plans for weapon balance through out the game in the future?

 

Like syndicate weapons such as the rakta ballistica being abysmal compared to the other syndicate weapons or prime weapons such as boltor prime out shining(pun intended) most weapons in the game?

 

or how most single daggers are fairly underpowered compared to other melee weapons and that they really don't have a niche in the game

 

 

 

P.S  Please take a second look at the rakta ballistica. most regard it as the worst syndicate weapon and even a down grade (in terms of damage) compared to the original... also you can't change it's colors like the other syndicate weapons... what gives?

Edited January 22, 2015 by RIOTx

[CaveCricket48]

What are the devs' thoughts on generic abilities as gear items obtained from syndicates, instead of the old ability mod idea?

 

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/378997-generic-abilities-as-gear-items-not-mods/

 

 

 

Are there any plans to have more than one augment for the same ability? For example, We already have an augment for Slash Dash that adds to the melee combo counter, and could have another augment that makes Slash Dash's animation instantaneous.

 

 

 

Is the Rakta Ballistica going to get any love?

Edited January 21, 2015 by CaveCricket48

[Thyriell]

How is the water tileset/mission type coming along?

[InglriousB]

Are there gonna be any updates to the communication features in the near future?

Like enabling people to send messages to each others inboxes even when players are offline or enable an chat app for iPhone and Android.

Would sure help a lot with clan management and socializing

[SovereignViper]

What will the next prime warframe be

[Error989]

Augment Slots?
More Syandanas?
Slider for resizing Syandanas and Sugatras?
1 more rotation in endless void mission? C rotations are full of stuff

edit: kubrow love? (armor, or even a new kind)
more sentinel accessories packs? (without sentinels in them)

if you cant ask them all of those pick the one you like the most Rebecca

also can forma bp and rare cores be moved to A rotation and stay at A?

Edited January 21, 2015 by Error989

[MrNonApplicable]

Rakta Ballistica, shotguns, supra and sniper buffs?
Spaces for augments and QoL mods that won't damage builds?

Edited January 21, 2015 by MrNonApplicable

[KIREEK]

Are there more rooms and decorations comming for the dojo's? (asside from the MR test rooms and the test dummy room)

 

How many mods will end up being "Primed"?

 

Can you guys explain with more detail the vision about the future of trading in warframe? What kind of system are you guys planning exactly?

[TrickBox]

How about Rotation C ? I'm tired of Forma BP...

[LGear]

Do the Syndicate Leaders have names? And are there plans to expand on the Syndicate's lore through quests and other missions?

 

And will the Rakta Ballistica ever get a buff?

Edited January 21, 2015 by LGear

[Grimvalor]

I have two questions. What are the future plans with Kubrows, And do you have any plans on refining the chat and including customization of chat window.

[TheDrivingDead]

Will we ever be able to equip other badges, even alliance badges on the right shoulder/ similar companion slots?

[Briareos]

Will Kubrows get some love anytime soon? The three big things I've seen people give for reasons why they don't like them are the Kubrow AI that parks them right in the way of your shots, the inability to give them basic commands like "stay", and the stasis mechanic that costs either 10 plat to rush or a 3-hour wait. Imagine if you had to wait three hours to switch warframes. How much of a barrier to play would that be?

[-Narauko-]

Can we ever expect to see Syndicate Frames?