Stealth Feedback & Suggestions Thread

[rkofansify]

I wish they give the Exclusive Ash idle animations and stance for every other Warframe or at least a unique weapon stance for each because it seems only one Warframe has a unique set of weapon stances and I'm getting tired of the same old stance and if it would be cool you can choose your weapon stance and it has it's own pros and cons like increased accuracy and decreased rate of fire. Also they should make all components like Fieldrons (when your clan completes research) so that you don't have to farm so much and it is more convenient but at the same time still have the need to go through farming runs for other stuff. Also It would be nice if they would buff the duration on Ash's smoke screen ability by around 2-3 seconds more since it is too damn short. Lastly if there are guns, there should be silencers or something so at least there is an option for stealth for other guns or weapons but there should be consequences like decreased damage or range.Forgot to suggest that there should be different play style incentives like you can choose whether stealth or guns blazing then after choosing it will reward on how well you played on that particular mission playing that style and also there should not be a deduction on xp and credit bonuses if you have a lack of kills.

Edited August 14, 2013 by rkofansify

[MaxBulletbite]

Yeah! Great ideas! They should do this stuff!

[RaianStar]

What do you mean by realistic? It's a shield technology, we don't know how ti works. Maybe It's like that shield from stargate which is harder with greater kinetic energy so a slow dagger can pass through but bullet can't.

Or daggers could be modified to bypass shields and other melee couldn't, that would make dagger even better choice for stealth attacks.

Well there should be some kind of basic logic within the game right?  Why would an enemy with a shield active (it's obviously active, his health bar is blue) suddenly lose his shield because he didn't know he was about to be attacked?

[Enguzrad]

That's why I also suggested that some weapons would bypass shield and some not.
And yeah it probably would be strange when the same weapon bypass shields on stealth attack but not on regular charge attack.

[arch111]

That's why I also suggested that some weapons would bypass shield and some not.

And yeah it probably would be strange when the same weapon bypass shields on stealth attack but not on regular charge attack.

 

The solution for this is an electric charge or mine that negates the shield at the same time the kill takes place. As for technology like walkers and such, they all have weak spots, wires, power-cells and the like. They should in some cases be even easier to disable.

 

 

So I just did a quick check(may have missed something) and this topic appears to have the MOST VIEWS AND REPLIES yet DE refuses to make a meaningful comment on the topic. I find that very troubling

 

The very vague answers on the livestreams tells me one thing. The devs overlooked how widely players would want stealth. They made an Action game. When the game took off and we began demand that the game grow and become more then just a slaughter for loot, they had no back-up plan.

 

Now they are in a position of "How the hell do we introduce more Stealth without breaking the entire game?". They allways say they are working on it, but untill we get hard evidence of the fact, I doubt it.

 

I say, make Stealth Sets. Create missions that are Steath Missions per definition. Remove the constant alert-system, the Lock Downs and the paranoid running crews.

 

Instead insert confident, fewer guards and patrols. A set number of enemies per Garrison like in Exterminate missions would be preferable.

Make sure there are multiple ways to traverse the level, and add apropriate sub-mission goals in the level.

 

A stealth mission could have :

Assasinate (insert enemy here) undetected.

Sabotage power Core.

Steal the data / steal the prototype

Steal the experimental weapon Blueprint only available in Stealth Missions.

Disable security cameras / doors / open doors / .

Remotely access gun-turrets and use them against the enemy.

Hi-jack walkers to be your ally

Bosses that require thought and use of hide and seek, hacking and specific targeting of Systems, parts etc.

Sniper Attack. Attack a concoy to take out a vip or raid it for something valuable.

 

Ninja Team. Sniper cover fire + ninja stealth kills + hacking.

 

Stealth missions would NOT be about

Grineer galleons packed to the roof with Heavy Units.

Massive spawns.

Constant alerts.

Press 4 to win scenarios.

 

The main problem is to make sure the rushers and action fans do not play these missions. Perhaps these missions require the Ninja group of the Tenno, rather then Paladins. That is Ash, Loki, Saryn and Banshee. Of course 2 Loki and 2 Ash would do the trick wonderfoully :)

 

Thoughts please?

[Zext]

 

The very vague answers on the livestreams tells me one thing. The devs overlooked how widely players would want stealth. They made an Action game. When the game took off and we began demand that the game grow and become more then just a slaughter for loot, they had no back-up plan.

 

Now they are in a position of "How the hell do we introduce more Stealth without breaking the entire game?". They allways say they are working on it, but untill we get hard evidence of the fact, I doubt it.

 

I say, make Stealth Sets. Create missions that are Steath Missions per definition. Remove the constant alert-system, the Lock Downs and the paranoid running crews.

 

Instead insert confident, fewer guards and patrols. A set number of enemies per Garrison like in Exterminate missions would be preferable.

Make sure there are multiple ways to traverse the level, and add apropriate sub-mission goals in the level.

 

A stealth mission could have :

Assasinate (insert enemy here) undetected.

Sabotage power Core.

Steal the data / steal the prototype

Steal the experimental weapon Blueprint only available in Stealth Missions.

Disable security cameras / doors / open doors / .

Remotely access gun-turrets and use them against the enemy.

Hi-jack walkers to be your ally

Bosses that require thought and use of hide and seek, hacking and specific targeting of Systems, parts etc.

Sniper Attack. Attack a concoy to take out a vip or raid it for something valuable.

 

Ninja Team. Sniper cover fire + ninja stealth kills + hacking.

 

Stealth missions would NOT be about

Grineer galleons packed to the roof with Heavy Units.

Massive spawns.

Constant alerts.

Press 4 to win scenarios.

 

The main problem is to make sure the rushers and action fans do not play these missions. Perhaps these missions require the Ninja group of the Tenno, rather then Paladins. That is Ash, Loki, Saryn and Banshee. Of course 2 Loki and 2 Ash would do the trick wonderfoully :)

 

Thoughts please?

 

Doesn't sound too good. 

 

You can't have a mode set up like that dedicated to stealth, unless it means literally just taking away your ability to fight. If you have a mode that has less enemies, that don't respawn, why wouldn't someone just use it to have an easier time rushing a nightmare or rushing a raid or something? 

 

Also it'll just make stealth way too easy. Fewer guards and patrols? Enemies that don't fear the living hell out of the Tenno? How could there be something so important on this ship but have it be so unprotected? 

 

A lot of the extra stuff you mention also just really isn't necessary yet. 

 

The main problem with stealth is not really your tools at your disposal or anything, it's the reaction of enemies to your actions. Before they see you, it works pretty great. 

 

Enemies become aware much too quickly, and information spreads much too fast. Being spotted by one grineer spreads across an entire tile, no matter how big. Being alerted means they know your exact location. 

 

What stealth needs is much simpler than a whole dedicated mode. It just needs enemies that can become aware, but not omniscient. You should still be able to disappear from sight despite an alert being up. You need enemy information to be spread by a range, not by tile (ie, if a grineer sees you by himself, only he will know unless he presses an alert or goes near other grineer). 

 

Along with that should be the ability to disappear - turning off alerts, making enemies think you're gone, making enemies think you're dead, or even at least making the enemies think you're in one room when you've really already disappeared and are in another. 

 

Those things are what stealth really needs right now. 

[Enguzrad]

Enemies become aware much too quickly, and information spreads much too fast. Being spotted by one grineer spreads across an entire tile, no matter how big. Being alerted means they know your exact location.

 

What stealth needs is much simpler than a whole dedicated mode. It just needs enemies that can become aware, but not omniscient. You should still be able to disappear from sight despite an alert being up. You need enemy information to be spread by a range, not by tile (ie, if a grineer sees you by himself, only he will know unless he presses an alert or goes near other grineer). 

 

Along with that should be the ability to disappear - turning off alerts, making enemies think you're gone, making enemies think you're dead, or even at least making the enemies think you're in one room when you've really already disappeared and are in another. 

 

Those things are what stealth really needs right now. 

 

There are a few problems.

We can't disappear if Corpus and Grineer ships have sensors which can detect us.

The information will spread fast because enemy is equiped with radios.

We can't kill anyone silently because the will miss him.

The only thing we can do about this is to make warframes undetectable by ship's sensors so they won't know our exact location unless they see us. And give us option to lock down rooms, send false information about killing the intruder and maybe even let them send reinforcements to wrong room.

Anything other would send Corpus and Grineer communication technology to prehistory level which doesn't make sense because informations are very important in war.

Edited August 15, 2013 by Enguzrad

[Math1337]

I didn't read 47 pages of topic, so sorry if my idea isn't new:

 

At this moment for stealth kill (with animation) we need good weapon with high base damage and high crit multiplier.

Currently the best weapon for stealth is.... Orthos prime (60 base dmg * 1.5 crit multiplier = 90 base crit dmg).

So Orthos prime is stealth weapon? This is sad.

 

So my variants:

 

1. Give shot-melee weapons greater crit multiplier.

(Example: Dual cleavers have (25 b.dmg * 3 crit.m.=)75 b.crit.dmg, so if you boost crit.m to 400% from 300% it will become nice stealth weapon with 100 b.crit.dmg.

 

2. Give all weapon additional stealth multiplier applied to based damage, calculated before crit multiplier.

For short melee greatest, for long-melee average, for heavy lowest.

 

 

ps: sorry for my poor English ;(

[Paprika]

The livestream was vague, but they brought up the point of stealth requiring more AI coding. They said they're working on AI behavior. Are they gonna fix stealth? Probably not for awhile. This doesn't really seem like a top priority, which really saddens me. 

[arch111]

Doesn't sound too good. 

 

You can't have a mode set up like that dedicated to stealth, unless it means literally just taking away your ability to fight. If you have a mode that has less enemies, that don't respawn, why wouldn't someone just use it to have an easier time rushing a nightmare or rushing a raid or something? 

 

Also it'll just make stealth way too easy. Fewer guards and patrols? Enemies that don't fear the living hell out of the Tenno? How could there be something so important on this ship but have it be so unprotected? 

 

OK, so I went abit wild on this one admittedly. My point to this is that it is unlikely that the devs will implement higher alertness to the AI, line of sight, darkness and light, etc we need in order to really play stealth. At least not in the near future.

 

And why not have Stealth missions? Like Nightmare, the devs will strip the players of certain key advantages, weapons etc. As for turning of Spawns, this is for making sure it does not become impossible or into a regular mission.

 

if you play a mission today and try using only Stealth chances are the spawns will make you fail, or the AI awareness will make you fail, or the stealth-kill till make you fail.

Sure you could make the loose condition "X number of alerts triggered = mission failed" but that is hardly optimal.

And even so, what is there to prevent a 4 button killer to join the mission and ruin the fun?

 

Fewer enemies does not in my mind mean easier gameplay. They can be smarter if they are fewer. They can work as a team if they are fewer. There can be more mini-bosses per level then usual, since the data will allow this when not dealing with 300 enemies running around the place all the time.

 

What if the ship was guarded by 3 stalkers with a group of Elite units for backup? What if the tiles actually allowed for some intence combat involving skill and not just speed?

 

I know there are alot to work out for there to even BE a stealth-play. But if we do want something implemented soon, we must be realistic. What can the devs do with the code they allready have? A nightmarish-type of mission that restricts frames/weapons etc might be the only thing they can really do right now.

 

This thread is full of awesome ideas. And you have some points to. Lets just hope the devs will find a way.

[Enguzrad]

I didn't read 47 pages of topic, so sorry if my idea isn't new:

 

At this moment for stealth kill (with animation) we need good weapon with high base damage and high crit multiplier.

Currently the best weapon for stealth is.... Orthos prime (60 base dmg * 1.5 crit multiplier = 90 base crit dmg).

So Orthos prime is stealth weapon? This is sad.

 

Stealth kill damage is taken from weapon's charge damage.

And I have expressed my opinion on this here https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/3930-stealth-feedback-suggestions-thread/page-46#entry1064323

[Math1337]

Stealth kill damage is taken from weapon's charge damage.

And I have expressed my opinion on this here https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/3930-stealth-feedback-suggestions-thread/page-46#entry1064323

 

Ye, even if it is based on charge damage, short-range weapons are not suited for stealth atm :(

So additional stealth kill multiplier would be great part of Ninja-game.

[SFkenny]

Perhaps there could be sequences where a stealth form of play would be advantageous to a larger traditional level. There was a sequence in Splinter Cell: Chaos Theory where Sam had to sneak through the engine room of the Maria Narcissa cargo ship. The entire room was saturated with flammable gas that would explode if gunfire happened inside.

 

Unlike this scenario, however, in Warframe, it would not insta-fail the mission if you blow up the room. It would just set the "fire condition" on the map for exploding rounds and an automatic lockdown. Sneaking through the area unseen, or meleeing all enemies before they could get a shot off, would keep the map normal and shields at maximum. Probably also a "stealth bonus" at the end would be good.

[Enguzrad]

Look at this, it's old but it has nice basics of enemy AI for stealth mechanics.

 

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/11763-new-stealth-mechanic/

If the DE used this ideas, it wouldn't be half bad.

[xMopey]

I agree.

[Nagisawa]

The very vague answers on the livestreams tells me one thing. The devs overlooked how widely players would want stealth. They made an Action game. When the game took off and we began demand that the game grow and become more then just a slaughter for loot, they had no back-up plan.

 

 

The livestream was vague, but they brought up the point of stealth requiring more AI coding. They said they're working on AI behavior. Are they gonna fix stealth? Probably not for awhile. This doesn't really seem like a top priority, which really saddens me. 

Actually, LS 12 they pretty much admitted that they have no clue where to go next.  They didn't think the game would take off this far.  Because people are suffering from 'burnout' which admittedly, after having played a game for 500+ hours on your log, that's inevitable.

 

However, I think we are all missing out on several key elements on Stealth in games.

 

First off, I have some experience with a bunch of them, from Metal Gear Solid, The Mark of Kri, the Tenchu series, Mark of The Ninja and a few FPS, like Far Cry 3: Blood Dragon.

 

And one thing I've noted in all of these Stealth games (good or bad) is that they do NOT have constant respawning enemies.  Even when you trip an alarm, they either make it harder, by congregating on your position (Which could be useful if you planned ahead) or by having a limited respawn rate after the alarm is tripped.  Warframe right now, unless on an Exterminate mission, has a constant rate of respawns, even having them appear behind you when alerted.

 

Secondly, and everyone's touched on this in some way.  Enemy AI.  In a stealth game, the mobs have one of several positions and they rarely deviate.  They either a) Patrol a set series of way points.  b) Wander from 'friend' to 'friend' to simulate talking, or boredom. Or c) Stand guard over something, whether it be an object or a door.  There might be other unaware behaviours I've missed, but for the most part, this is what happens.  In Warframe everything has a random wandering system.  

 

As an addendum to the second point, Mob density is also an issue.  In a Stealth game, you have small packs of mobiles at most, typically in the range of five to six.  And there are spaces in between each allowing you time to get back into stealth, before tackling the other areas.  Warframe with it's wandering monster system precludes any chance of getting your breath back.

 

Third, maps, zones, locations, whatever you want to call them.  In most stealth games each area it takes place in are wide and relatively open.  They have multiple entry points and multiple exit points, not to mention plenty of spaces and objects to hide in or against.  Which leads to my next point, but let's finish this.  Warframe on the other hand only has one way in and out for each room.

 

Fourth thing on the list, actual steal abilities innate to all characters, which in this case are the Tenno Warframes, and yes, that includes Rhino.  Whether or not the suit has any sort of stealth ability (Banshee's silence field, Loki's invisibility, the various Sentinels and so on) the Warframe needs to be able to hide.  That means a sort of 'cover' system.  In LS 12, the devs said they don't want the Gears of War stop and pop game play (which by the way, still happens), which is a laudable goal, but if they're going to put in more stealth aspects, we need to hide.  Now, what they could do is make it so that the only option you have when stealthing using cover is melee only.  But that seems limiting to me, and let's face it people love to play the sniper (I do it with my Paris.)

 

This to me (and remember this is my experience with the above mentioned games) are all the roadblocks we have facing us and stealth in this game.  I'd also like to point out that stealthing with an Excalibur (for example) is not impossible, it's just a lot more difficult  than it should be (I've done it on Grineer Exterminate maps, usually with the Pairs and Kunai combo, rarely do I get a chance to Dual Ether people.

 

Does anyone have any idea the amount of work required to make stealth as viable?  I honestly don't, but it looks to me like a LOT.  Can it be done without rewriting the entire game from the ground up?  Even if it's just part of the game, like a third of the missions at MOST?  I have no idea.  I hope so, but it looks like it's a pretty big stumbling block to my untrained eyes.

[Yiruna]

I don't know if this has been said at all since I'm new to the forums but I would like for them to put in a stealth mod for the weapons for weapons that aren't already stealthy to begin with. I would like being able to play stealth mission and level up other guns instead of having to resort to the Lanka (Which more than half of the community can't get from the get go), or any of the Bows. I don't know that's just me. 

[VegetableBasket]

We need shootable lights. Banshee's sound quake disabled lights (maybe still does?) in some levels for whatever reasons, but I think light needs to be accounted for in detection, and lights should be able to be disabled (shooting, switches, whatever) to make more tactical gameplay. You'd expect this from the team that made The Darkness, but I digress.

[Inkyubasu]

I know all those stealth things are impotant bur isn't the story line important too?

i mean,i don't know if i'm the only person that ask "why is this happening?"

or what happened,who is the lotus and things like that ,or maybe adding a story line is harder than the game types and adds?

i really wish they could do that

[arch111]

No, you are not alone. Story will come, devs are just struggling with the how.

The events and taunts, Lotus clues are the only sources of info right now.

Personally I think the events are waisted. What I hope to see are Quests where you get info and Lore as well as loot.

A resque should yeald some boons and intel about the enemy.

A spy mission should reveal a location, unit secrets etc.

Sabotage should be for a purpose.

If we went on quests that gave the backstory of the Warframes, the Collapse, the Void, the Lotus, the plague, and we get this in our logs, it will make a more personal journey, and a better reason to play than the Grind.

This is off topic, but seriously this could involve anything including stealth assasinations.

Got a new mod? Great, lets play some missions where at the same time we level up, we learn facts about said mod.

Who made it, why? Is there a backstory connected?

This is doable, but hard for a small team who needs to craft models, sound, animation, hunt Bugs, balancing and deal with the communitys wishes.

Lets keep giving DE good tips, like this excellent thead :)

[whitejackale]

I am a bit confused by this thread. 

 

1) Members of the community have requested an optional cover mechanic.

2) DE stated that no cover mechanic will be added because such a system has no place in a fast paced shooter such as warframe.

3) Why is a stealth mechanic threat stickied if they are not going to introduce content that has no place in a fast paced shooter?

[SFkenny]

Just because there is no cover system doesn't mean stealth gameplay isn't viable. Looking around corners from behind a wall can already be done by shoulder-swapping the camera.

 

As far as the random wandering system, I actually kinda like how it figures into stealth. When I'm following enemies with my shade cloak, the random wander allows me to make it incredibly far into the map without firing a shot, which would be impossible with standard patrol routes. I'd suggest a combination of the two elements- some set patrols and some roving units that travel between rooms. Script boxes for units leaning against walls, taking a smoke break (or a futuristic equivalent), or other such activities would also benefit players looking for patterns to exploit in the pursuit of silently taking down enemies.

 

On maps where the two factions are fighting each other, player stealth should still be able to work despite other units setting off alarms.

[whitejackale]

Just because there is no cover system doesn't mean stealth gameplay isn't viable. Looking around corners from behind a wall can already be done by shoulder-swapping the camera.

 

I was just pointing out that DE stated that they will not introduce a cover system because it does not fit into a fast paced third person shooter. I am just pointing out that a stealth mechanic does not fit into a fast paced third person shooter, and so I find it strange that this thread would be stickied when DE has made such statements.

 

In my opinion the best thing that DE can do is to give players various different choices. I enjoy fast paced game play, but I would like to have the option to mix it up by being able to take a stealthy approach, or by being able to use an optional cover mechanic system.

[SFkenny]

A cover system is also a *@##$ to implement, FYI. There's a ton of animation work to do to make it fluid to get in and out of cover, more control modifications to make it work smoothly, exceptions for players in cover to have less chance of being detected by the AI, etc. etc.

 

It's just a big pain and considering how fast the shooting is, having a cover system just breaks combat flow. We're ninjas! We quickly destroy our opposition with the element of surprise. If we have to take cover from enemies, we're not doing our jobs right.

[whitejackale]

A cover system is also a $#*(@ to implement, FYI. There's a ton of animation work to do to make it fluid to get in and out of cover, more control modifications to make it work smoothly, exceptions for players in cover to have less chance of being detected by the AI, etc. etc.

If we follow that reasoning for all content, then they might as well stop adding content to the game because it is a lot of work.

 

It's just a big pain and considering how fast the shooting is, having a cover system just breaks combat flow. We're ninjas! We quickly destroy our opposition with the element of surprise. If we have to take cover from enemies, we're not doing our jobs right.

How does a cover system break combat flow more than a stealth system? You can also say that "We're ninjas! We quickly destroy our opposition with the element of surprise. If we run through a ship while killing every enemy in sight with our machine guns and abilities while making a lot of noise that attracts attention, we're not doing our jobs right."

I am just pointing out that DE has taken the stance of not adding a cover system because it would detract from the fast paced third person shooter experience that they are providing us. If we apply that logic to stealth mechanics, you could say that they will not work on stealth because stealth is not a fast paced third person shooter experience. Make sure to read the bolded parts in the quote as well.