You Know, If De Were Quick To Balance Op Weapon They Wouldn't Receive This Much Backlash.

[Twilight053]

Although the nerf to the Synoid was a balanced one, how long did it took to truly balance it? Six months? It was all the way from Update 15 to Update 16, all the way from November to March.

 

That's one bad habit that they really should get around, they shouldn't leave the problem to float for days, weeks and even months; if they know it's broken, don't ignore it.

[LadyScootaloo]

If they don't make things OP to begin with, they'll get disappointed players who just go "bleh, just another weapon"

One might say the highest value of a new weapon is how OP it is.

 

edit : To clarify, this is not a good thing.

Twi is actually on-point.

Edited April 3, 2015 by LadyScootaloo

[Gelkor]

If they don't make things OP to begin with, they'll get disappointed players who just go "bleh, just another weapon"

One might say the highest value of a new weapon is how OP it is.

 

Kinda this right here.

[Stormandreas]

Another habit they need to get around, is delaying updates. They need to have a backlog of content readily available so that nothing gets delayed. That, or do slightly larger updates every 2 weeks.

This would also allow to weapon balance throughout the 2 weeks, and get testing done.

[LadyScootaloo]

Kinda this right here.

 

It's pretty... sad.

That the definitive difference between weapons isn't enough to make them count on their own most of the time.

[Noabettiet]

Perhaps an unpopular thing, but the community has conflicting ideals. There are players who will simply abandon a weapon after it becomes balanced.

[Forgotten_Aeon]

-New weapon comes out, is considered good.

-Players much more likely to spend forma/potatoes/resources, platinum

-Weapon is later nerfed

-Players move onto next good weapon

-More likely to spend etc. etc.

-Repeat

[Blatantfool]

 Considering the enemy scaling requires weapons to be at least a certain level of strength before even being considered as a weapon worthy of owning it's not the easiest thing in the world to handle.

 

 Weapons can't just be unique. They have to be unique AND stomp just as well as the most powerful weapons in the most important parts of the game's difficult content.

 

 DE could release a super clever gun with a really fun and interesting gimmick and if it ain't any help in peoples farm they sure as hell aren't going to use it instead of a gun they do know they can trust to stomp through those enemies. Same goes for the raid.

 

 So new weapons being OP from time to time? Yeah. Some of them are gonna have to be. Look what they compete with. The most powerful of the 'balanced' weapons are so strong they're melting pretty high level enemies. You'd HAVE to make a weapon OP for it to stand out among those entries.

 

 

 You want to be mad about balance? Be mad that the game itself lets weapons become useless so fast. DE's gotta smooth the enemy stat curve and then do a big pass on our arsenal to make the curve a more gradual climb in power. Maybe then the personality of some of the guns will be able to make a different in whether or not people use it. The unwritten rule of "If it ain't got dat BIG DAMAGE it's fodder" that is made necessary by the steep climb in enemy defensive stats as the levels get higher means it's just impossible for those low and mid tier guns to ever be allowed to matter.

 

 If DE balance the arsenal out so that weapons were all comparably closer to each other it'd almost ruin the game for us. We actually RELY on how incredibly power creep some of the content is. We need it as cushion so we can push further in the content DE has made for us. It's ridiculous.

[LadyScootaloo]

 Considering the enemy scaling requires weapons to be at least a certain level of strength before even being considered as a weapon worthy of owning it's not the easiest thing in the world to handle.

 

 Weapons can't just be unique. They have to be unique AND stomp just as well as the most powerful weapons in the most important parts of the game's difficult content.

 

 DE could release a super clever gun with a really fun and interesting gimmick and if it ain't any help in peoples farm they sure as hell aren't going to use it instead of a gun they do know they can trust to stomp through those enemies. Same goes for the raid.

 

 So new weapons being OP from time to time? Yeah. Some of them are gonna have to be. Look what they compete with. The most powerful of the 'balanced' weapons are so strong they're melting pretty high level enemies. You'd HAVE to make a weapon OP for it to stand out among those entries.

 

 

 You want to be mad about balance? Be mad that the game itself lets weapons become useless so fast. DE's gotta smooth the enemy stat curve and then do a big pass on our arsenal to make the curve a more gradual climb in power. Maybe then the personality of some of the guns will be able to make a different in whether or not people use it. The unwritten rule of "If it ain't got dat BIG DAMAGE it's fodder" that is made necessary by the steep climb in enemy defensive stats as the levels get higher means it's just impossible for those low and mid tier guns to ever be allowed to matter.

 

 If DE balance the arsenal out so that weapons were all comparably closer to each other it'd almost ruin the game for us. We actually RELY on how incredibly power creep some of the content is. We need it as cushion so we can push further in the content DE has made for us. It's ridiculous.

 

You've become oddly wordy since I was last here.

 

TL;DR of BlatantFool's post.

The game isn't able to handle non-op weapons because it is unpolished.

[A1CZERO]

 Considering the enemy scaling requires weapons to be at least a certain level of strength before even being considered as a weapon worthy of owning it's not the easiest thing in the world to handle.

 

 Weapons can't just be unique. They have to be unique AND stomp just as well as the most powerful weapons in the most important parts of the game's difficult content.

 

 DE could release a super clever gun with a really fun and interesting gimmick and if it ain't any help in peoples farm they sure as hell aren't going to use it instead of a gun they do know they can trust to stomp through those enemies. Same goes for the raid.

 

 So new weapons being OP from time to time? Yeah. Some of them are gonna have to be. Look what they compete with. The most powerful of the 'balanced' weapons are so strong they're melting pretty high level enemies. You'd HAVE to make a weapon OP for it to stand out among those entries.

 

 

 You want to be mad about balance? Be mad that the game itself lets weapons become useless so fast. DE's gotta smooth the enemy stat curve and then do a big pass on our arsenal to make the curve a more gradual climb in power. Maybe then the personality of some of the guns will be able to make a different in whether or not people use it. The unwritten rule of "If it ain't got dat BIG DAMAGE it's fodder" that is made necessary by the steep climb in enemy defensive stats as the levels get higher means it's just impossible for those low and mid tier guns to ever be allowed to matter.

 

 If DE balance the arsenal out so that weapons were all comparably closer to each other it'd almost ruin the game for us. We actually RELY on how incredibly power creep some of the content is. We need it as cushion so we can push further in the content DE has made for us. It's ridiculous.

 

This was basically what I was in the middle of typing. Thank you Mr.Fool for typing faster than I and saving me time.

[taiiat]

the Players getting wildly out of hand in the first place, causes the Enemies (and new ones) to retaliate by getting wildly out of hand.

stat inflation wars don't work, everyone loses.

both Players and Enemies need to not get wildly out of hand.

Another habit they need to get around, is delaying updates. They need to have a backlog of content readily available so that nothing gets delayed. That, or do slightly larger updates every 2 weeks.

This would also allow to weapon balance throughout the 2 weeks, and get testing done.

delaying content additions(for good reasons) doesn't have any connection to being able to do fixes or balance changes.

Digital Extremes has hundreds of Employees. not just a handful.

Edited April 3, 2015 by taiiat

[RavenousPartyLibrarian]

I just hope DE focuses more on coming up with those gimmicks rather than just making something powerful, in the future.

[Blatantfool]

You've become oddly wordy since I was last here.

 

TL;DR of BlatantFool's post.

The game isn't able to handle non-op weapons because it is unpolished.

 

 No more or less then always. Some topics get me yapping. Some don't.

 

 The enemy scaling topic has become something that really grinds my gears. Not enough people actually discuss how badly the enemy scaling impacts our needs when it comes to weapon stats. Instead it's just "This weapon sucks make it hurt more." or "Why does DE just keep releasing huge DPS guns it's stupid!"

[H3RRD0KT0R]

Since synoid was released i felt this was so getting nerfed... I think almost everyone felt the same, but as OP stated, they just took way too much to fix it, at some point players got so used to it that they believed the nerf would never come.

[Blatantfool]

I just hope DE focuses more on coming up with those gimmicks rather than just making something powerful, in the future.

 

 They can't.

 

 You know what we call guns that prioritize unique gimmicks over damage and viability against the top weaponry?

 

 Mastery Fodder. 

 

 This is the problem's true form. We don't need guns reliable for Mercury or Earth or whatever. They wont help us enough to be worth keeping over the list of weapons that trump them. We need guns that will be reliable wherever we take them. Be it T4's, the Raid, Pluto or wave/minute 50 of some Defense/Survival node you like for some reason. 

 

 If it doesn't do that well most players have no use for it. Especially guys with fewer slots.

[armedpoop]

Isnt this thread a bit late? 

 

Since synoid was released i felt this was so getting nerfed... I think almost everyone felt the same, but as OP stated, they just took way too much to fix it, at some point players got so used to it that they believed the nerf would never come.

The fact that it remained as it was for so long was why people thought it wouldnt be nerfed. 

[AlphaHorseman]

I just hope DE focuses more on coming up with those gimmicks rather than just making something powerful, in the future.

Or they could do both so we have a variety of weapons that aren't all the vanilla. Weapon variety +1!!!

[Tyrian3k]

Strange, I've said a pretty similar thing as the OP on the crit buff of the Grakata ages ago.

The big problem that the devs have is that they create weapons much faster than they manage to balance them, not to mention the mess that major changes like Damage 2.0 created in the balance of weapons.

[WhisperByte]

delaying content additions(for good reasons) doesn't have any connection to being able to do fixes or balance changes.

Digital Extremes has hundreds of Employees. not just a handful.

The sad thing is that even with those hundreds of employees they still take months to balance only a handful of weapons and they usually do it as a response to tons upon tons of threads full of flames and vitriol. Worst of all they almost always take the easy way out by just smashing a weapon with a nerf hammer (or buff Galatine) which usually results in an overbuff/overnerf. Not to mention how inconsistent some of those balance passes are (like Braton P and Gammacor buffs)

 

It just seems that they want to do as little balancing as possible

Edited April 3, 2015 by WhisperByte

[ZxpferTH]

They clearly don't know how to properly balance the weapon just look at the synoid and rakta it took so long to make it right

And look at the thing like supra cost a lot of resource + time to make it and it so S#&$ty i think it even outperform by karak or even braton

Edited April 3, 2015 by VioletX

[Casval_Rouge]

You know, looking at the the recent patch notes makes me sad.  I see balance changes to conclave every time, and none for PvE.  Clearly they can do balance work quickly enough, they just don't.  Yes it is understandable that it is more important for PvP to be balanced and not PvE, but 6+ months is not acceptable.  Every time I look at my arsenal, I see awesome weapons that I want to use but can't because they are not good enough. 

 

"But surely you can just use whatever you want, who cares if they are viable at high level or not, play lower level stuff instead if you want to use those weapons, they have their place."

 

I've seen people argue with this logic too many times.  The problem is when anyone wants to have a decent amount of challenge in this game, they have to bring top tier weapons and Warframes.  Of course I can use low tier stuff in lower level areas, but I don't want to play on lower level missions.  They have less spawn and they lack the need of coordination or just pure skill.  It's not exciting to play low level because Press 4 2 Win.

 

That is why PvE balance needs to be at a much higher priority right now.  The balance is a mess, and with new weaopns coming in every 1-2 weeks, this problem is just getting worst.  Anyone remember the fire shield?  They said they will look at it.  How months have past now?   Do people really don't see the problem here?  

[KiteoHatto]

You know, people would undestand DEs action a lot better if they put themselves in DE's shoes. Seing things from consumer's point of view can only reveal so much.

[Casval_Rouge]

You know, people would undestand DEs action a lot better if they put themselves in DE's shoes. Seing things from consumer's point of view can only reveal so much.

 

Doesn't mean it benefits the consumer, therefore I don't care how DE see things.  I care about what they produce and they care how much they get pay for it, pure and simple.  If I turn a blind eye, does that mean DE will also be willing to make less money?  No.  If I sympathize with DE's position, does it make the game better?  No.  It might make me less critical about their actions and their product, but that's just comfort through neglect, that makes me a bad consumer, especially when I've decided to be a Grand Master. 

[KiteoHatto]

Doesn't mean it benefits the consumer, therefore I don't care how DE see things.  I care about what they produce and they care how much they get pay for it, pure and simple.  If I turn a blind eye, does that mean DE will also be willing to make less money?  No.  If I sympathize with DE's position, does it make the game better?  No.  It might make me less critical about their actions and their product, but that's just comfort through neglect, that makes me a bad consumer, especially when I've decided to be a Grand Master. 

It doesn't have to benefit the user, it just have to make sense to the user.

 

Comfort through neglect is refusing to see the changes from their point of view lol(you know the whole - "im confortable as long as changes don't affect me" thing). That's why there are always so many "wtf DE, are you serious ?!" threads after each change.

 

Ignorance is salty bliss ?

Edited April 3, 2015 by kiteohatto

[Siekier]

You know what they could do to not receive this much backlash?

 

Balance weapons properly. And listen to our feedback on this part.

Because right now, balance in this game is a joke.

 

Weapons aren't balanced. Many frames aren't balanced. Enemies aren't balanced.

Most "balancing" attempts rely on simply nerfing something. It's a very cheap way and it's irritating to see that the weapon you liked a lot and put a lot of time into was nerfed or changed a lot (for example Kohm).

 

Another thing is, many of those changes are completely unneeded.

Remember Braton Prime buff? Why did it get its ammo pool reduced to 375 rounds? For balancing? Meanwhile Boltor Prime has 540 rounds and Soma Prime has 800 rounds and they're both much, much better weapons. But hey, "balance"...

Did anyone say that it needed this change? No? Well, who cares anyway...

 

See, if DE would listen to our feedback more and actually take it into consideration, I think it would be a better situation for everyone.

Better for us. Better for them because playerbase would be happier with the changes they make if we knew we have impact on them.

 

We're "beta testers". We've put hundreds of hours into this game. We know how stuff works in this game, and when we propose changes, we do it for a good reason.

If only someone actually bothered to listen to us...