Ibro156 Posted July 11, 2015 Share Posted July 11, 2015 (edited) history is written by the victor So tenno are the victor in oriken era. We're only know what happens in oriken, just from stalkers and the prime frames story. From stalkers point of view, we're the bad guys. But clashes with primes' story, making the oriken to look like the monsters. The stalker could be telling, truth that we're the monsters. Or the tennos, we're enslaved by oriken. it could be neither or both. What am saying, the only things we know is information the is given by the lotus, All the information we have were ahnd me downs from the lotus. The tenno could be bad guys. But history is written by the victor. So what lotus says go. Edited July 11, 2015 by Ibro156 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ComCray Posted July 11, 2015 Share Posted July 11, 2015 tl:dr- my son thinks im playing a game about genocidal maniacs with vague objectives. This could be a great moment to teach him about how, in reality, there are no good and/or bad guys. That the whole notion of "good" vs "bad" is generally written by the victor and is only marginally different from propaganda. How it's generally down to interests and how these coincide with your own (or not) that make how we consider who is or isn't the good guys.... I did this with my own kids when they went and asked who the good guys were (or when they were convinced knowing who the bad guys were) and it sure has changed their view on reality in a positive way. Explaining what the frux is going on in the middle east sure became a lot easier.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ComCray Posted July 11, 2015 Share Posted July 11, 2015 [..] In the space of 40 minutes Survival is a genocide, [...] prevent a Tenno elsewhere in the ship from being caught, tortured and eventually killed. So.. ummm.. killing off 1000+ grineer so that one (obvious) thief won't be caught and 'brought to justice' is a good deal...? Seems to me both sides have lost the high-ground here... ;P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SugarShow Posted July 11, 2015 Share Posted July 11, 2015 Lotus secretly only wants space oil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hypernaut1 Posted July 11, 2015 Author Share Posted July 11, 2015 Wrong, and I'll explain you why. Grineer started the war in the Origin System, and they're a sort of futuristic Third Reich. That's why Lotus awoke us. Grineer come after us, every time they can. Vor had this exact kind of objective: kill Tenno in their cryopods. Grineer subjugate everything they can, and put the Origin System at risk. That's why we fight and kill them in every way we can. Corpus could seems to be innocuous, but they're obsessed with Void and Orokin and they are a threat too for Tenno (the old Sgt. Nef Anyo used to search and sell Warframe intact cryopods, and Corpus in general are interested in buy or however control Warframe and Tenno). So, at the end, we're not really the 'bad guys'. We're the ones who bring balance, even if it's not really correct. We should just smash Grineer Empire and Corpus guilds entirely. They don't deserve to keep living. Honestly, the way you put it sounds like the worst kind of propaganda. Especially your reasoning behind killing corpus. Being obsessed with with the void doesn't really sound like a valid reason at all, nor does what Nef Anyo did to Tenno. While I know there is more to the story of course, the way you put it still sounds very vague as to WHY they are evil and deserve to be mass murdered. You can practically apply that same reasoning to any group." X is obsessed with Y, so they must die, and this one guy also did this" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reaver_X Posted July 11, 2015 Share Posted July 11, 2015 The Tenno are the heroes we deserve, but not the ones we need right now.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OdWidget Posted July 11, 2015 Share Posted July 11, 2015 Personally, the Exterminate missions especially sit badly in my stomach. Except in the cases in which I'm killing Infested or Corrupted, cleaning out a Grineer ship or Corpus outpost weighs a bit heavily on my mind.Some of the alerts paint a better picture for us. Mission titles such as "Defeat Enemy Ambush," "Hostage Situation," "Protect Sensitive Data," and "Detained Research Scientist Located" illustrate times in which we're arguably doing something constructive for society, though other alerts—"Clear Resistance," "Enemy Support Squadrons Located," "Oerride Facility's Security Systems," "Mining Research Station Discovered"—are much more morally ambiguous.To those who argue that we're just mercenaries, well... We kind of are. But at the same time, we're "Operatives" for the Lotus with a certain degree of operational freedom. She sends us out on missions to Exterminate and Assassinate but also to Rescue and to Defend. As payment, we receive credits and mission rewards as well as any spoils that we find on the battlefield. I assume that there are other noncombatants under the Lotus's command and even some non-Tenno combatants (such as the Syndicate Operatives), but we aren't those guys.At the very worst, we're sentient weapons who purpose and skill set revolves around violence. But current lore hints that this isn't a path that we specifically chose—ethically-void Orokin experiments probably created us. Just the very nature of our being keeps us segregated from the rest of Origin System society. We haven't seen ourselves outside of our Warframes, and I suspect very highly that outside of those suits we are very much different from the average human (as hinted to by the Rhino Prime and Ember Prime Codex entries).At the most basic level, we're doing the only jobs that people with our kind of power are forced to do. Our abilities, even though they revolve around dealing death, are the most valuable, so it makes sense that we go on these missions. Does this justify our actions? No, but a Tenno's gotta eat somehow. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
achromos Posted July 11, 2015 Share Posted July 11, 2015 (edited) Personally, good and evil are very basic and trivial terms. In one persons eyes he may see a hero, and in another a villain. Good and Evil are only terms that the human brain utilizes to justify action just like anything else we do. Let's quickly drag this to a warframe example, the queens. The Grineer Queens, do they see themselves as evil? Doubtful unless they are insane, which is as likely in this universe as in the Dark Souls/Demons/Blood Borne world where sanity need not apply. The Grineer Queens are trying to spread their influence, rule and in general gain more power. The colony's of un-enslaved people that their soldiers find there are idle hands needing to be refined and hammered out into a usable tool for their regime . However, those Colony's most likely don't adore the idea of being forced to work or die. Being taken from their homes and watching their friends and family die. In their eyes, the Grineer Queens are evil. While yes, morally it is wrong to enslave, rape, pillage, and murder. However, it is the people who wield the strength that decide if these values are worth upholding and where and how they will go about fighting these things that offend them if they do. The Tenno are not good guys like superman or batman, no. Those people don't usually kill unless they absolutely have to. (look at batman and joker especially) But does that make them the evil ones when they have their own grudges? Corpus want to deconstruct us, and sell us in pieces (Look at what they did to valkyr and heck just look at this gif) Grineer want to destroy us, and erase us from the solar system. (Listen to the scanner, easy example.) Infestation just want to consume, consume everything. ... Tenno? At least lore-wise (taking into account Lotus as the tenno leader) Just want the fighting to stop, maintain the balance and they will take the biggest stick they can farm out of the void to enforce this. However, does this excuse picking on people within the faction that haven't yet really made any big issues for the tenno individually? I personally believe that it is preventative medicine to the issue. Edited July 11, 2015 by achromos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)Treezzy1 Posted July 11, 2015 Share Posted July 11, 2015 Much of the games lore is still clouded in mystery. But we know its an ongoing war. Running away or not those are soldiers. It is war. basically we launch small attacks on theirs ships and stuff. Thining them out slowly i guess Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)Stinja Posted July 11, 2015 Share Posted July 11, 2015 We're short-term villains to be long-term heroes. In the space of 40 minutes Survival is a genocide, but in long-term lore this could prevent a civilian colony from being enslaved Hypothetical question: if there was a node released with unarmed non-combatant civilians, shown to be completely innocent, but they dropped R5cores, exclusive corrupted mods and prime weapons better than current ones - do you think Tenno would leave them alone? Personally i'd foresee a bloodbath of epic proportions... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RevolutionaryJusticar Posted July 11, 2015 Share Posted July 11, 2015 Hypothetical question: if there was a node released with unarmed non-combatant civilians, shown to be completely innocent, but they dropped R5cores, exclusive corrupted mods and prime weapons better than current ones - do you think Tenno would leave them alone? Personally i'd foresee a bloodbath of epic proportions... THIS. This is a Tac alert I'd actually WANT to play. "Tenno, I've located a small civilian settlement. What's so special about them - they've gotten a hold of some orokin-era technology, but are not willing to co-operate. You get to choose - massacre the villagers and take their goods or leave them at peace. Choose wisely." And there would be 2 sigils as rewards. "Protector sigil" and "Mercenary sigil". Those who left the civilians alone got the Protector, and those who murdered them got the Mercenary sigil. The sigil you got would be shown in your inventory, like besides your currently equiped warframe or something. It would be interesting to see how would Protector and Mercenary numbers would wary, although most of us can probably already see how they would turn out... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)MoRockaPDX Posted July 12, 2015 Share Posted July 12, 2015 (edited) Hypothetical question: if there was a node released with unarmed non-combatant civilians, shown to be completely innocent, but they dropped R5cores, exclusive corrupted mods and prime weapons better than current ones - do you think Tenno would leave them alone? Personally i'd foresee a bloodbath of epic proportions... Long time ago I proposed enemy non combatants. Some have said that DE has said they wanted to put them in but didn't get around to it. I think it's mostly a resource issue. (Though, they maybe meant slaves) I call them non combatants becuase, they are not civilians, as such. You work on a gallion you are are aiding the enemy. However, wouldn't have them drop anything. Killing them would either be a choice or collateral. But, it might be enough to make a few think twice about using an AoE nuke. THIS. This is a Tac alert I'd actually WANT to play. "Tenno, I've located a small civilian settlement. What's so special about them - they've gotten a hold of some orokin-era technology, but are not willing to co-operate. You get to choose - massacre the villagers and take their goods or leave them at peace. Choose wisely." And there would be 2 sigils as rewards. "Protector sigil" and "Mercenary sigil". Those who left the civilians alone got the Protector, and those who murdered them got the Mercenary sigil. The sigil you got would be shown in your inventory, like besides your currently equiped warframe or something. It would be interesting to see how would Protector and Mercenary numbers would wary, although most of us can probably already see how they would turn out... I actually think there should be a major event based on a schism between those who follow the philosophy of the Lotus, and those who would be pure mercenaries. I think it should play out before the Sentients are brought out in full force and resolved. The Tenno who split from the Lotus will take missions from the faction sponsoring the attack on the particular node. You can revel at your mercenary life, while the Corpus and Grineer remind that this is what you where all along. Perpaps, a new Ronin reputation could be made, and the Tenno could desend into murkier wetwork. Repairing the schism would be essential to having a strong force to face the Sentients with. It could directly reflect on the progress of the eventual Sentients assault. Edited July 12, 2015 by (PS4)MoRockaPDX Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ComCray Posted July 12, 2015 Share Posted July 12, 2015 (edited) THIS. This is a Tac alert I'd actually WANT to play. "Tenno, I've located a small civilian settlement. What's so special about them - they've gotten a hold of some orokin-era technology, but are not willing to co-operate. You get to choose - massacre the villagers and take their goods or leave them at peace. Choose wisely." And there would be 2 sigils as rewards. "Protector sigil" and "Mercenary sigil". Those who left the civilians alone got the Protector, and those who murdered them got the Mercenary sigil. The sigil you got would be shown in your inventory, like besides your currently equiped warframe or something. It would be interesting to see how would Protector and Mercenary numbers would wary, although most of us can probably already see how they would turn out... Hold on... So doing nothing earns you a sigil? That just doesn't sit right with me. If anything -doing nothing should earn you the "didn't give a S#&$" badge. But let's take your example a wee step further: "I've located a small civilian settlement, they are under attack by the [Grineer/Corpus] but I cannot figure out why. Your job is to protect the civilians and your secondary objective is to find out why they are being attacked" During the mission you find that, inside the civillian lockers there's orokin stuff. Also, the civilians that are shot drop amazing loot. THis is where you, as a player, get to choose how to handle this. Are you: - going to defend the civilians OR - going to slaughter the civvies. During the first mission you got a sigil. But this sigil is something else... It seems to have powers... Each time you play the mission (or missions) points are added to the sigil. -If you play defensive, points will go to the defense - side of the sigil, which adds to your WF's armour, shield and health. -If you play offensive (ie, kill all teh humans) points will go to your power strength, total power and efficiency. This behavior will also be visible on the sigil, so you can immediately see if someone was defending or was looting the place. At the end of the event those that were defending get a bonus reward from the lotus, because they were "the good guys". Those that helped the [corpus/grineer] with the looting get a credit reward for their trouble (from the Corpus or Grineer) and a stern warning from the lotus (or something). The Sigils are now locked into how you chose to play this event. Yes, the "bad guys" actually got more loot from the game and their sigil is arguably better then the defense sigil. But when using them they will brand themselves as mere mercenaries, murderers and thiefs whereas the defense crew gets to be the Lotus's favorite pets and are a shining beacon of morality... It would be really interesting to see how the bulk of the tenno will choose.... edit: imagine, later in the game, you as a looter are going to a rescue mission with your looter-sigil. You open the right cell but after seeing your sigil the prisoner says: "I'd rather die here then take one step with you, you filthy murderer". Or when you take your defense sigil to darvos and try to buy something and he's just like: "You.. You cost me dearly during the phobos-massacre, you can forget about this discount!!!" edit 2: in general.. it'd be nice if certain NPCs reacted to certain sigils we are wearing. Edited July 12, 2015 by ComCray Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
macroeconomics Posted July 12, 2015 Share Posted July 12, 2015 When kubrows first came out, hordes of tenno descended on earth to butcher them in droves, desecrate their corpses and burn their nests for mods and eggs. I really don't see how we could be anything but bad guys there. When catbrows appear it'll be kubrowcalypse all over again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MokutoBunshi Posted July 12, 2015 Share Posted July 12, 2015 Read the whole thing and as far as: "my son thinks im playing a game about genocidal maniacs with vague objectives." He isn't wrong. Look at the players, now back, now back to the players. He is a good kid. ]\'[okuto Bunshi Peace Out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pyus Posted July 12, 2015 Share Posted July 12, 2015 60 min t2s... yeah we're the bad guys, they are the dumb guys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Volume Posted July 12, 2015 Share Posted July 12, 2015 Well, the grineer kill everything that is not grineer, including innocent civilians. So I'd say the grineer are the bad guys. Oh I forgot to add that they also enslave their own race. Like the drones in Tyl Regor's facilties that are cyborgs forced to make stuff. That's what your precious Lotus WANTS you to believe! also, yes, we are bad guys we are all bad guys we're the "least bad" bad guys here. the least worst of, if you will. But you know what they say... If you wanna be bad, well, you gotta be good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
armazatel Posted July 12, 2015 Share Posted July 12, 2015 I'd compare the Tenno to something like Godzilla, sometimes destructive, sometimes protector and largely indifferent to the world at large. the ones who wake Godzilla up needed to learn harsh lessons that were provided in death tolls and gigantic corpses. Similarly, the grineer, corpus and possibly the orokin move to further their own goals of control and power. we are teaching them in the only way they understand: destruction, death, annihilation. monsters we may be, but sometimes you have to be forced to remember: you are not omnipotent, you are not a god, you do not rule indefinitely, we are but cogs in a grand cosmic play, and there is always something that can humble you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Meneliki Posted July 12, 2015 Share Posted July 12, 2015 Sounds to me like you've raised your son well enough that he's questioning the moral validity of the Tenno's motives. Well done! Tell him 'good job', and then engage his budding intellectualism with something like, '..Are the "bad guys" in society the poor fellows committing the crime, or the rich ones who manipulate the system in such a way as to force destitute people into a life of lawlessness?' The blank stare on his face should last at least a few seconds, after which just tell him 'Just kidding. It's a game, son!' and go wreck some Corpus with him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Homer87 Posted July 14, 2015 Share Posted July 14, 2015 I dont need Grineer to be bad guys. I just kill them for pure pleasure and sport. ^ This. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArchBlood Posted July 14, 2015 Share Posted July 14, 2015 Bad guys? Can't see it. Are Tenno good? No, they are doing what they need to live. Same as the Corpus, as with the Grineer. Either way, no one has the high-ground when it comes to a morel standpoint. We all kill and kill and keep killing. If your son sees us as the bad guys, then we are to him. That's how the "good guy, bad guy" thing is. It's all about how/who you/is look at it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kalenath Posted July 14, 2015 Share Posted July 14, 2015 (edited) One of the best stories I read on good and evil in this kind of setting was called 'Allegiance' by Timothy Zahn. I don't CARE if Disney considers it not canon now, it IS a good book. Most of his stuff is. In the book, the protagonists -the HEROES- are stormtroopers. And not the cannon fodder marksmanship challenged (or ordered to miss) versions from the movies, but elite highly trained special forces types with good training and equipment. They are TRYING to be 'good guys' in a world gone evil. (and yes, it got them in LOTS of trouble.) That is pretty much what I see Tenno as. Not nice. Not pretty. Not 'politically correct'. No. They are needed. Edited July 14, 2015 by Kalenath Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lakais Posted July 14, 2015 Share Posted July 14, 2015 We are a group of genocidal weapons on legs. But one thing I like to go "not so fast, mate" about is the whole we murdered the Orokin thing. The ONLY source for THAT is the Stalker, and whatever anyone says, I wouldn't consider him as a reliable source. Though it is likely that the Tenno made the Orokin empire go splosh, We have yet to see any concrete evidence about why. I have theories and the synthesis lore bits suggest the Orokin were right bastards of the most highest level (they made the grineer and other modified humans to be their tools, not even worthy of being considered alive as far as they are concerned) No arguing that the wanton destruction that the Tenno leave in their wake and the personalities of some Tenno does create a sense that Tenno aren't the good guys. Not even close. Tenno are the fire to fight fire with. Hell, we might in fact be the "greatest evil" of them all in the game. But we keep all the other ones in check, maybe. Or we could be looking too much into it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WetAedeagus Posted July 14, 2015 Share Posted July 14, 2015 Tenno, "Grineer is evi! Kill them all!" Grineer, "How about a blue potato?" Tenno, "Grineer is ok-ish, they're still pretty bad though." Grineer, "Here's another blue potato and a free weapon on top of that." Tenno, "Grineer is innocent! Why are you killing them?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TaylorsContraction Posted July 14, 2015 Share Posted July 14, 2015 Also we're not that safe in relays. Recall that Vey Hek did come and blow a number of them up including all the regular people that lived on them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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