Sniper Weapons Will Never Be A Viable Option- Regardless Of How They Are Buffed

[Jamescell]

It's common knowledge that sniper weapons just aren't an effective option compared to rifles, shotguns and/or launchers. Of course, there are players that can out-damage their teammates using sniper rifles and/or very specialized builds, but those same players would be doing even more damage with other weapon types. 

 

There have been many forum posts that talk about categorically "buffing snipers" or buffing specific weapons so that they can compete with other weapon-types. The most common suggestions are to, essentially, make snipers more like rifles, make all snipers like the Lanka, or turn snipers into the AOE killing machines that launchers already are. 

 

Well, I'm here to say that sniper weapons will never be as good as other weapon types given the will of the Devs and the interests of the community. The core problem with snipers is their inability to deal with multiple targets quickly, right? Unless snipers are essentially turned into rifles or launchers as many of the community suggest, they simply won't be able to compensate for this deficiency stat wise- else they wouldn't be snipers. 

 

What I mean, is that the high-damage but low multi-target potential that snipers currently have is intrinsically characteristic of snipers. Without this trade off, sniper weapons wouldn't actually be sniper weapons. They would be some other type of weapon. 

 

Why is it that snipers are viable in other games, but not Warframe? The answer is simple: other games have a healthier balance of enemy difficulty vs. player power. That doesn't mean that you can't demolish enemies, you just have to use skill and strategy to do so. 

 

The only way that sniper weapons can become viable and stay as sniper weapons is to change the balance of the game. The problems with sniper-rifles are symptoms of a bigger issue. Warframe is currently a haven for players who seek to satisfy their god-complex fetishes by mindlessly tearing apart combat-incompetent enemies- spray and pray mixed with 4-to-win galore. 

 

Simply put, we are too powerful for the enemies we face. However, the reward system encourages the speed-run meat-grind that we currently call game-play. The reward system would have to be balanced accordingly, but increasing enemy defensive capabilities is completely possible. Overall, enemies would become stronger but fewer in number, and drop rewards would be balanced accordingly.

 

My solution in particular would be to increase damage resistance in armor-heavy areas but amplify the damage-bonuses for hitting vulnerable areas. Not only would gameplay become more stimulating, but problems like the sniper imbalance would become much easier to solve. Furthermore, wipe-em-clean abilities would be less useful on lower levels where they absolutely destroy enemies without any real player input or directives. 

 

Sadly however, this community doesn't want a healthier balance. The excuse being that players "wouldn't feel as powerful". To that I ask you, what makes you feel powerful truly? I feel more bad a$$ in Farcry 4 after killing a dozen or so enemies than I do disintegrating a few thousand enemies in Warframe.

 

Imagine if Farcry 4 had an "orbital strike" feature where players could destroy whole villages by pressing a button and aiming. I wouldn't feel more powerful even though I would be more powerful- things would just get boring. Such a feature is essentially what we have in Warframe. 

 

What makes you feel more powerful? Rainbow-style target practice and mindless button mashing, or besting somewhat challenging enemies that you are powerful enough to kill anyways? I feel powerful when I utilize abilities and skills in meaningful ways. "Powerful" warriors are skillful, and use the tools they have in an effective manner, whereas in Warframe all you have to do is press a few buttons and keep sprinting.

 

Game-play is more focused on camping terminals than it is about actual combat. It is essential for progress, that community members understand that you can still feel powerful as hell when you combat enemies in meaningful and engaging ways. Until this community is willing to accept that, and the devs start hearing feedback suggesting such changes, snipers will never be as effective. 

Edited August 17, 2015 by Jamescell

[LtZefar]

With how DE solves things Snipers might end up with 2k damage just to balance things out.

[DaftMeat]

Sniper weapons are camping weapons. They don't work well in the fast-pace movement Warframe encourages and caters to.

[TwiceDead]

They are plenty viable, they are just not bows, and they shouldn't be either. 

Most rifles already have innate punchthrough, all you have to do to deal a lot of damage to many targets at once is to line up the shots. 

[markus230]

If Sniper rifles could shoot down tougher high lvl enemies (like 90lvl Bombard or smth) if you would just buff their crit chance and flat dmg

Edited August 16, 2015 by markus230

[Jamescell]

They are plenty viable, they are just not bows, and they shouldn't be either. 

Most rifles already have innate punchthrough, all you have to do to deal a lot of damage to many targets at once is to line up the shots. 

A weapon can be as effective as you like, but it won't be viable when there are much more effective and potent options. 

[motorfirebox]

What snipers need, in order to be viable, is maps and mission types where sniping is useful.

Edited August 16, 2015 by motorfirebox

[Jamescell]

If Sniper rifles could be viable to shoot down tougher high lvl enemies (like 90lvl Bombard or smth) if you would just buff their crit chance and flat dmg

There shouldn't be a "endgame" type of weapon. No specific category of weapon should specialize in endgame content. 

[Jaypalm]

A pretty easy solution would be to increase the headshot bonus snipers receive, maybe give them all innate punch through on bodies, similar to the glaive, and give them all the damage they deserve.

Snipers are meant for picking off priority targets quickly from a range, but have reduced effectiveness up close due to their zoom. So they are usually accompanied with strong side arms which we have plenty of. This also brings up a possible buff for them: a backwards falloff. Shotguns get weaker as distance increases, but snipers get stronger with range.

[TaylorsContraction]

Ugh you're wrong, I use then and get 25%-50% enemy kills in a mission. The only way to kill useless threads like these is to make a video... I'll work on that.

[NinthAria]

A weapon can be as effective as you like, but it won't be viable when there are much more effective and potent options. 

 

You're conflating "viable" with "optimal." Viable doesn't mean it's best; only that it's capable of getting the job done. Which is true, in many cases.

 

What snipers need, in order to be viable, is maps and mission types where sniping is useful.

 

This is a big part of the issue. Most map tilesets are somewhat confined; indoor locales with low ceilings, lots of obstructions, and few good vantage points. Having more wide open spaces like those found on the Corpus/Grineer settlements would be a good start to making sniper rifles more attractive.

[InFlames]

A pretty easy solution would be to increase the headshot bonus snipers receive, maybe give them all innate punch through on bodies, similar to the glaive, and give them all the damage they deserve.

Snipers are meant for picking off priority targets quickly from a range, but have reduced effectiveness up close due to their zoom. So they are usually accompanied with strong side arms which we have plenty of. This also brings up a possible buff for them: a backwards falloff. Shotguns get weaker as distance increases, but snipers get stronger with range.

 

I really like the idea the problem still remains in the maps being small and tight.

[Wurdyburd]

In light of the recent Covert Lethality mod: why not give snipers a pure incarnation of the niche that they were designed to fill?

Why not make a mod that grants sniper rifles insta-kill on headshots?

Sure you could argue it's too powerful, but at the rate of fire snipers get, + the ammo limitation, the need to AIM your guns rather than spray and pray, and the difficulty with aiming due to the crazy scope zoom, I feel that it may work.

Granted there would need to be an enemy mechanic designed to deal with snipers, but it would be a step towards some kind of balance progress at the least.

[SwooceRaiden]

In light of the recent Covert Lethality mod: why not give snipers a pure incarnation of the niche that they were designed to fill?

Why not make a mod that grants sniper rifles insta-kill on headshots?

Sure you could argue it's too powerful, but at the rate of fire snipers get, + the ammo limitation, the need to AIM your guns rather than spray and pray, and the difficulty with aiming due to the crazy scope zoom, I feel that it may work.

Granted there would need to be an enemy mechanic designed to deal with snipers, but it would be a step towards some kind of balance progress at the least.

While that would be fun, it's not very useful for the same reason that Covert Lethality isn't very useful. You're still killing one enemy per shot, or two if you're lucky with Punch-Through. In the same time that it would take you to line up that shot, most of the decent Frames can clear a room.

[LtZefar]

In light of the recent Covert Lethality mod: why not give snipers a pure incarnation of the niche that they were designed to fill?

Why not make a mod that grants sniper rifles insta-kill on headshots?

Sure you could argue it's too powerful, but at the rate of fire snipers get, + the ammo limitation, the need to AIM your guns rather than spray and pray, and the difficulty with aiming due to the crazy scope zoom, I feel that it may work.

Granted there would need to be an enemy mechanic designed to deal with snipers, but it would be a step towards some kind of balance progress at the least.

I can only imagine Snipers + Slow or stun skills will be the ones used in end game if they can one shot all enemies with headshots. 

 

They would need a rapid fire weapon for secondary due to the shields.

[TaylorsContraction]

Since it'll take me a while to make a vid as I don't normally do that sort of thing, I have some screenshots I made for other people like OP. These are from a while ago, when there was a similar wave of inexperienced players who have no idea how to use a sniping weapon were making the same comments:

 

 

 

This was a defense mission where the host extracted causing an automated mission fail

 

These aren't isolated cases, in any long lasting mission I will do a good portion of the damage. Generally 25% or more, which in a 4 player match is all that is required of a player. More recently I played with a exhalted blade excal spammer who had 1,600 kills and I had 1,100 kills in that mission. That is a pretty damn good ratio when you're comparing exhalted blade E spam versus a 1-shot Vectis. Snipers are viable in terms of damage and killing stuff. Snipers fall off around 40 minutes, meaning you stop killing things in one hit. That's when your overall kill count starts to slow down significantly. The problem isn't with snipers ineherently, but their stats. Whereas a bow will continue to 1-shot at this time without much effort. Hence the sniper fans in this game are waiting for sniper buffs, so we can compete with bows.

[-dicht.Amducias-]

With how DE solves things Snipers might end up with 2k damage just to balance things out.

2k dmg?

[-dicht.Amducias-]

Since it'll take me a while to make a vid as I don't normally do that sort of thing, I have some screenshots I made for other people like OP. These are from a while ago, when there was a similar wave of inexperienced players who have no idea how to use a sniping weapon were making the same comments:

This was a defense mission where the host extracted causing an automated mission fail

These aren't isolated cases, in any long lasting mission I will do a good portion of the damage. Generally 25% or more, which in a 4 player match is all that is required of a player. More recently I played with a exhalted blade excal spammer who had 1,600 kills and I had 1,100 kills in that mission. That is a pretty damn good ratio when you're comparing exhalted blade E spam versus a 1-shot Vectis. Snipers are viable in terms of damage and killing stuff. Snipers fall off around 40 minutes, meaning you stop killing things in one hit. That's when your overall kill count starts to slow down significantly. The problem isn't with snipers ineherently, but their stats. Whereas a bow will continue to 1-shot at this time without much effort. Hence the sniper fans in this game are waiting for sniper buffs, so we can compete with bows.

Ok we 2 do a defense together and after you show the stats here okay?

[LtZefar]

2k dmg?

2000 base damage. Tigris got 1050 damage total. Snipers being much slower and to compensate for that they get double. 

 

DE ain't named Digital Extreme for nothing you know.

[Burnthesteak87]

What snipers need, in order to be viable, is maps and mission types where sniping is useful.

I totally agree with you.

A new mode (or a new bossfight involving sniping at long distances) would make it, extremely long areas and obstacles making imprecise weapons less desiderable.

There are a lot of possibilities.

As example we can take the MGS3 the End fight, which is wonderful.

Edited August 16, 2015 by Burnthesteak87

[-dicht.Amducias-]

2000 base damage. Tigris got 1050 damage total. Snipers being much slower and to compensate for that they get double.

DE ain't named Digital Extreme for nothing you know.

Ah base lol

[TwiceDead]

Ok we 2 do a defense together and after you show the stats here okay?

What would that solve? He proved that snipers are actually viable, and are in fact quite effective weaponry, whereas the OP's claim is that they are not viable, but he's confusing viable with optimal/best/OP, as is common on these forums. 

[BlackCoMerc]

What snipers need, in order to be viable, is maps and mission types where sniping is useful.

 

This person understands. 

 

We need a mission like Base Invasion. Enemies in this mission would hold points, not pursue the Tenno. After all, they are defending, not attacking. They would use cover, hide and provide cover fire for one another. 

 

Such a mission makes the careful use of long range sniper rifles useful. 

 

Until we stop bouncing off walls over the heads of a hundred suicidal idiots bum rushing a poison cloud like its a free buffet dinner, Sniping itself is simply useless.

[420degreequicksopeswag]

Instant solution:

 

Go ahead and steal tf2's explosive headshot upgrade from mann vs machine.

 

1. Find beefy corrupted bombard

2. Shoot face

3. Kill bombard, nullifier, heavy gunner, and 20+ other enemies.

4. Done. Snipers are now worthwhile.

 

(snipers,bows, opticor also need to pierce nullifier bubbles)

[Prospal]

The idea of Exploding Headshots has been floating around for awhile, and I find it pretty great.