Proposed Multishot Change Mentioned In Devstream 59 [Megathread]

[DxAdder]

What does it really mean ?

 

Will will have to adjust some builds, and I know this will come as a shock to some... have to use your secondary and melee.

 

Makes the game more interesting.

[BraverLeech37]

I'm not the only one, but those of us who actually care more about balance than not having our toys being taken away are definitely a minority here.

But ask yourself this if enemies are not on equal playing felid as the player now then how is nerfing damage going help fix. 60wave defense become imposible hell must high teir enemies at level 46 would be a chore to kill with this update. Honestly there are only two ways for this to work 

1.They instead make the chace for mulit shot lower

2. They nerf enemy scaling to actucally make sense an cap at fair level so the player has a fair fight

it's not that toys are being broken rather every weapon is getting nerfed and losing a mod slot to ammo mods while enemy would stay the same as they

[(PSN)inuyasha279]

What does it really mean ?

Will will have to adjust some builds, and I know this will come as a shock to some... have to use your secondary and melee.

Makes the game more interesting.

Secondary has the most multishot. Primaries have the least. And is what made it have better mods overall than primary.

Melee is getting multihit and still won't be used as much.

Edited September 5, 2015 by (PS4)inuyasha279

[Vanhline]

They're not nerfing damage. Did you pay attention to anything?

It is going to lower damage. If your doing the same amount of damage per clip but having to reload 2-3 times more often because each shot is chewing through more ammo then the time spent shooting goes down and your overall damage output is significantly lowered.

[[DE]Artarrwen]

What does it really mean ?

 

Will will have to adjust some builds, and I know this will come as a shock to some... have to use your secondary and melee.

 

Makes the game more interesting.

 

What it really means is DE is failing to recognize real issues or unwilling to address them.

Again.

[Mastikator2]

Balance is turning multishot into fire rate with a status bonus?

...yes?

 

Balance is turning mandatory mods into optional mods. Balance is making the choice in mods less cookie cutter. Balance is increasing the number of real choices players have in place of fake choices.

[(PSN)inuyasha279]

...yes?

Balance is turning mandatory mods into optional mods. Balance is making the choice in mods less cookie cutter. Balance is increasing the number of real choices players have in place of fake choices.

this really doesn't affect every weapon.

This will be a buff for some weapons also. Like a 90% for Vectis P to have a single shot clip while only using a damage mod.

It's still increasing dps it's just acting like a fire rate mod.

It will be encouraged on low clip fast reload weapons and slightly discouraged on ammo inefficient weapons like synoid G grakatas and Secura Dual cestra. It will be discouraged on a small portion of weapons and an annoyance for most but probably still used as much.

The nerf could either be cancelled out with the weapon adjustments or will be stupid to put on some weapons just like now. (Castanas, Penta, Quanta)

Edited September 5, 2015 by (PS4)inuyasha279

[Carl_Bar]

Mastikator2: Play regularly against enemies past level 30 with level appropriate mod setups. It's very obvious your a low level player who hasn't got off saturn yet.

 

This without serious massive changes is going to destroy mall secondaries, any shotgun that isn't the tigris and most of the rifles because leveling players without access to mods they can't get without doing higher level content won;t have the DPS to beat the content their running. Even worse still come the endgame this is going to render all but a handful of weapons completely incapable of putting out sufficient DPS to be a viable gun without so badly destroying their ammo economy that they become unusable.

 

So guns that allready have stunning good ammo economy and stunningly good DPS that aren't shotguns/secondaries will do well. Everything else will go and die in trash tier hell.

 

EDIT: And in case you missed it, i want multi-shot and serration to not be must have mods. But any change has to come without messing with raw damage output or ammo economy.

Edited September 5, 2015 by Carl_Bar

[Abenoki]

Eh, I'm just gonna remove multi shot now in favor of ammo economy and adjust my builds to get use to it before the change happens. I'll still use it on things like bows and such but for alot of my guns ammo economy matters more to me. I'm not upset, I'll just adjust for the change and my play style before hand, get use to it and if it's better than what it sounds like add it back otherwise just max out my dmg the new way

Edited September 5, 2015 by Echoa

[VellaX]

I love this. There's nothing better than My Hikou P or my Aksomati/Dex Furis running out of ammo EVEN FASTER. It's going to be my new favorite change of the game. I am sincerely looking forward to not being able to use most secondaries without blatantly stopping to stand on an ammo pad for longer than it takes to empty my entire ammo pool. Top notch change, DE. Keep it going. More grind. More camping. More RNG. You guys know what's up.

Oh. But wait. You don't want us staying still as proven by this campaign against survival, excavation, and interception. Still waiting for this "year of quality" to start shining through, all we've gotten so far are nerfs to the weakest things in the game and more grind.

 lol id really like to go based on this ^ because so far they've done nice buff's on things but this has to be one of the worst idea's they have ever come up with considering the fact that like countless people have said scaling is still a problem it has been for a very long time and it's funny seeing all the people just starting the game basically wanting it to change because it match's their ideals it may be true that the current mods we have are overused staple builds but the newer player's are the one's who are getting listen'd to more lately on-top of the fact that DE's priority's being way out of alignment like adding the catbrow's when kubrow's barely work and are buggy and i cant even say how many time's people have asked for LOTS of other fixes and rework's like a few other people said why this why now?

[JuanDeages]

I agree. The proposed multishot changes would brick wall late game endless missions, which makes up for the vast majority of Warframe's late game experience. Imo, endless IS the game. If DE breaks it, what do we really have left? What is there to use these ridiculously damaging weapons on?

 

Having that said, I think the numbers should not be such that an unmodded level 30 gun goes to late game, but to where late game enemies don't eat entire magazines and laugh at you with a 5-6 forma weapon.

[shut]

Sorry but let's look at a game like the souls series, insanely difficult, will punish you for the smallest miss steps,

 

Feeling powerful doesn't mean no challenge.

 

Haha, the Dark Souls series was actually exactly what I was thinking about when I made my post. You work your way up and end up feeling incredibly powerful; yet the game remains skill-based all the way through, and even early-game maps can give you a good clobbering if you're not careful. (Or so I hear; I haven't played DS at all. Correct me if I'm mistaken.)

 

When I countered your "the devs shouldn't make us feel any weaker" post from the first page, it was because we're already statistically too powerful for any real challenge to exist (and, for newbies, high-leveled enemies are too powerful for any real challenge to exist). Right now, in terms of "difficulty", this game is pretty much Maplestory dressed up as a shooting game-- regardless of how skilled you are, the outcome of a fight will be determined almost purely by your stats. This is not okay.

I totally agree with you that we can (and should) feel powerful and experience challenge at the same time, but the game is simply too stat-reliant for that to happen. It's pretty much mathematically impossible for a skilled player in crap gear to contribute to a Pluto mission, and it's pretty much mathematically impossible for the most unskilled of minmaxed veterans to die on Mercury (unless he deliberately tries to do so).

 

I'm completely in agreement with the OP-- stat scaling needs to be flattened to an acceptable level, players and AI alike.

[(XBOX)SlyTYRANT]

Well hey let's run around with pillows hitting enemies oh wait nerf that . Now we have to hug an enemy.

[srlhama]

This change will destroy warframe,there is no other thing I can say,this thing is the ultimate statement that DE don't play this game.

[(XBOX)SlyTYRANT]

Well I was excited for the future of warframe and I buy prime access to support warframe but this change with out any change on scaling will stop any future contribution that I would have made.

[EmptyDevil]

This change will destroy warframe,there is no other thing I can say,this thing is the ultimate statement that DE don't play this game.

 

Massive exaggeration. People said the same thing about nerfing coptering. DE also said they will go over the weapons to make sure they don't suffer or become trash with the change.

[Carl_Bar]

The problem isn't that we do too much damage or that there are too many enemies-it's that weapons can scale in a way that's beyond linear (multishot multiplies damage, serration/etc multiply damage, elemental mods multiply damage, and all of these stack multiplicatively) and enemies scale in a >linear fashion, while Warframe durability and powers scale linearly.

 

I just want to hammer on this point hard. Our actual health between level one and level 50 content scales all of 3.2 times without bringing armour mods into it, max of just over 6 times with all armour mods on valkyr as well. Enemy health scales 37 times, not accounting for armour, shielded enemies scale a bit less but varies by enemy type), and damage between 4.8 and 22.5 times depending on enemy and specific content, (note the lower value is for allready strong enemies like bombards, techs, heavy gunners e.t.c.). An Elite lancer ion 50 nightmare deals over 500 damage per bullet when the maximum possible EHP on typical frames, (i.e. not those few with extreme armour) , is between 2 and 3k.

 

And this change really is bad, unless they radically increase clip sizes and/or reduce reload times AND radically increase ammo drop amounts where going to see all weapons lose massive amounts of sustained DPS, (and don't fool yourself into thinking it doesn't matter), and more importantly render whole slews of weaponry completely irrelevant due to ammo economy issues.

[VellaX]

Multishot and serration are only huge problems because of their interplay with utterly broken enemy scaling, because they are the only thing that really lets you kill in high level (70+) play. You can't fix multishot and serration without fixing this. You can't fix this issue by just changing gun stats around because right now the multishot damage is necessary in the threat environment we face.

 

 

 

Just like DE took acrid into mind when they went to damage 2.0, right? Just like the dual ether blades retained their uniqueness in damage 2.0, right? Just like DE buffed scythes when they were buffing heavy weapons, just like they buffed detron/bronco/pyrana when they were buffing primary shotguns, right?

 

Fact is, DE's approach to balancing these things has been hugely haphazard in the past, so a lot of people aren't willing to assume they'll suddenly get it right on the first try.

^^^^

[4MostlyHarmless2]

I've been telling people to try the Mk1 Braton in high level content for a long time for one major reason:

It is way more balanced.

 

OUR power curves are broken. The enemies deal the right amount of damage at level 35 for end game enemies. We just deal way too much.

 

Cut our power, cut the enemy counts, cut the garbage from the drop tables. This makes every enemy important, reduces the repetitive nature of the reward system, and helps the game overall.

 

MK-1 Master Race

 

Really though, I agree. We've gotten so used to being strong enough to beat all regular content in one or two hits, that we've practically made DE think that the best way to appease us/ challenge us is to keep mechanics that are pretty wonky (Armor Scaling, Enemy Swarming), or feel annoying and cheap when they'd actually be quite reasonable on a smaller scale (Nullifier/ Healer mobs, High-Damage Homing Rockets).

 

Less is more is a general philosophy that could do wonders for the current state of Warframe. 

[Jangkrik]

Solution: Incorporate the stats of mandatory mods into the weapons. My proposed changes are:

 

A. Remove Multishot mods and dmg mods (except for mods like Heavy Caliber since it's not mandatory; but tone down its damage so that it won't become another Serration) but increase the base damage and base proc of the weapons. To prevent lack of modding variety, replace 2 mod slots which are used for damage and multishot mods with exilus mod slots for utility mods like eagle eye, hush, eject magazine, etc.

 

If you want to change the mandatory elemental mods too...

 

B. Further increase the damage buffs gained by the removal of multishot and damage mods, but change it so that the elemental mods become "change x% of your damage/shot to y elemental."

For example: You have a rifle that does 25 puncture damage, 25 impact damage, and 50 slash damage per shot. Then, you slot in an "stormbringer" mod that change 20% of the rifle's damage/shot to electricity elemental. Now the rifle has 20 puncture, 20 impact, 40 slash, and 20 electricity. 

 

Or.....

 

C. Fix the enemy scaling and remove the mandatory damage mods and change the elemental mods to be like the one I proposed in point B. Instead of making the enemies become bullet sponges, make them smarter to be able to use covers and more dangerous formations as they level. 

Example:

- Lvl 1-19 grunts are dumb, they rush and try to kill you while ignoring covers.

- Lvl 20-29 grunts will try to take cover and blindfire when they know you're near them.

- Lvl 30-39 grunts will try to flank you and use deployable ballast cover if available.

- Lvl 40+ grunts will take cover behind shield lancer waves and disperse to find cover when the shield lancers are dead. They will also stay close to a defensive eximus or nullifiers until the barrier is destroyed.

Edited September 5, 2015 by Jangkrik

[Mastikator2]

this really doesn't affect every weapon.

This will be a buff for some weapons also. Like a 90% for Vectis P to have a single shot clip while only using a damage mod.

It's still increasing dps it's just acting like a fire rate mod.

It will be encouraged on low clip fast reload weapons and slightly discouraged on ammo inefficient weapons like synoid G grakatas and Secura Dual cestra. It will be discouraged on a small portion of weapons and an annoyance for most but probably still used as much.

The nerf could either be cancelled out with the weapon adjustments or will be stupid to put on some weapons just like now. (Castanas, Penta, Quanta)

Did you miss the part where they said they were going to do a lot of rebalancing so the multishot nerf doesn't break the game on purpose or did the knee jerk reaction prevent you from hearing it against your will?

 

Because what you're saying is literally not even relevant to what's actually happening. And I think you don't know that, you should really consider:

first: watching the devstream again to catch that part

second: give DE some credit because they've done these huge changes before and it always works out

It worked out when they removed coptering, when they introduced melee 2.0, when they introduced damage 2.0, when they added conclave 2.0

third: build a bridge over your river of salty tears and get over it

[tocorro]

Change to multishot will not destroy the game, BUT it needs to come along with fixed enemy scaling !

Otherwise it won't diminish quantity of necessary mods and make more builds viable.

It will instead add mandatory ammo mutation. Or make U farm even more for resources to build restores.

 

What else needs to be addressed :

- there are plenty of weapon mods that are outdated (like single status chance mods, etc)

- an option to change polarity of already formated mod space - like we can swap around polarities, this also should become a THING

(cause if more builds might be viable I don't want to re-forma all my guns. Hundreds of potatoed weapons with multi forma ? Re-forma it again ? WHYyyyy .... Noooooo ... Don't want to be punished)

- making utility mods more appealing

- making enemy kills more skill based - lowering dmg output or destroying ammo economy is not a challenge, adding tactical side to encounters would be a chalenge.

[Carl_Bar]

MK-1 Master Race

 

Really though, I agree. We've gotten so used to being strong enough to beat all regular content in one or two hits, that we've practically made DE think that the best way to appease us/ challenge us is to keep mechanics that are pretty wonky (Armor Scaling, Enemy Swarming), or feel annoying and cheap when they'd actually be quite reasonable on a smaller scale (Nullifier/ Healer mobs, High-Damage Homing Rockets).

 

Less is more is a general philosophy that could do wonders for the current state of Warframe.

 

The real issue is that enemy damage so outscales our health that if where not killing stuff in a fraction of a second we just won't survive. It's not that we've got used to killing enemies super fast, it's that killing enemies super fast is necessary if we want to actually complete content without going all out abusing CC.

[Kolos1001]

Nerfing multishot basically makes the number of viable late game weapons even smaller. Unless they do some MASSIVE rebalancing it's just changing the problem from having auto include mods to having only a few weps you can even hope to use effectively. They're making the problem worse imo. 

[Brasten]

C. Fix the enemy scaling and remove the mandatory damage mods and change the elemental mods to be like the one I proposed in point B. Instead of making the enemies become bullet sponges, make them smarter to be able to use covers and more dangerous formations as they level. 

Example:

- Lvl 1-19 grunts are dumb, they rush and try to kill you while ignoring covers.

- Lvl 20-29 grunts will try to take cover and blindfire when they know you're near them.

- Lvl 30-39 grunts will try to flank you and use deployable ballast cover if available.

- Lvl 40+ grunts will take cover behind shield lancer waves and disperse to find cover when the shield lancers are dead. They will also stay close to a defensive eximus or nullifiers until the barrier is destroyed.

 

This is as long as stand issue as multi-shot not consuming extra ammo.

 

The infinite scaling of enemy HP and Armor continues to be Warframes black eye on Balance passes. Everything from Warframe Powers to Weapon Damage inevitability hits this wall. This was discussed at length when Damage 2.0 and Resemblances on the "Armor" curve came up years ago. 

 

No movement was made to address this, and it hangs like a doom cloud over everything DE tries to do.

 

Until INFINITELY SCALING HP and ARMOR is addressed (as in truncated), there can be no true "balance" in Warframes design. As I pointed out back then, and point out again now, all you have to do is look at various Roleplaying game design (notably D&D under the 3rd edition d20 system) to see how INFINITE SCALING creates BROKEN game play.