Proposed Multishot Change Mentioned In Devstream 59 [Megathread]

[(PSN)NachoZissou]

While it's clear that having multishot use more ammo makes sense in a realistic way, those extra bullets aren't being supernaturally spirited out of thin air, I don't see why it's a change that needs to happen and is a good thing for the future of Warframe.

Can somebody enlighten me please?

[DrCrawford]

People rumor mongering and getting preemptively butt hurt over things they have yet no real clue about, lets me lose faith in gaming communities.

What 99% seems to have overlooked or overheard is the fact that it was also said, clip size and ammo reserve will be looked at and probably enemy scaling as well.  

 

Save your doom mongering and ship tosting for the time the changes go live, at least then your wgining might make sense.

+1 my friend, how ppl react reminds me of what my father told me to do in great times of strife:

 

Ahem:

 

 

When in danger

When in doubt

Run in circles

Scream and shout

[(PSN)ElZilcho]

how do...

 

Anything in Warframe, having a rational explanation. Your failure is strong.

 

 

 

'I will quit over something that has no concrete info or implementation, and I am sure a change I have no idea about will kill a game for me. So let's make a topic to fear-monger and *@##$ about it! '

 

 

yay!

 

>this asinine strawmanning.

 

Go away.

 

 

People rumor mongering and getting preemptively butt hurt over things they have yet no real clue about, lets me lose faith in gaming communities.

What 99% seems to have overlooked or overheard is the fact that it was also said, clip size and ammo reserve will be looked at and probably enemy scaling as well.  

 

Save your doom mongering and ship tosting for the time the changes go live, at least then your wgining might make sense.

 

Eh. It's based on my experience with other games invalidating progress and time, and my experience with the level of care DE puts into things. That is to say, very little. I didn't mind losing coptering and parkour 2.0 is cool, but the last time they balanced ammo, the braton prime got 375 and the soma prime got 800. That's just nonsensical. Why would I think this would be any better?

Edited September 5, 2015 by (PS4)ElZilcho

[Mak_Gohae]

If im reading this correctly then doesnt this just mean that people wont use Multishot?

 

Except for weapons that have kick-&#! ammo conservation which will then go on to lose that ability if you use multishot.

[Mastikator2]

He stated at the end of the post that the issue would be moot if a balancing is done, or at least a proper one

Glen said they'd do that. Yet here we are 22 pages into a river of salty tears.

[fatpig84]

Honestly what does this do ? 

Nothing at all.

 

Nerf multi shot ?

I will just remove speed trigger / vile acceleration on my quanta vandal.

And put on ammo mutation in place.

 

Will this affect my lovely collection of bows, Latron prime / Latron wraith (all multi formaed), launchers and Opticor ? 

Yes it will. My dread effectively only has 36 rounds. Launchers like the Kulstar and angstrum ? Loool maybe 10 reloads I guess ?

 

But will I give up multi shot ?

Nope. Never. 

 

I am not about to hand over my right of being able to play 1 hour survivals or 60 wave games casually because you are afraid that I can farm that fast and consume content too quickly, even though I am a "filthy casual".

 

I will just use ammo restores more often, until you nerf them of course.

And when that happens, all DE does is to make meta frames more mandatory and 4x CP more mandatory.

 

 

If players can no longer further rely on their guns, they will turn to abilities.

These don't cost ammo and if modded right, they will still effortlessly steam roll most things without firing a shot.

Don't push players further down that road DE.

Edited September 5, 2015 by fatpig84

[(PSN)ElZilcho]

If im reading this correctly then doesnt this just mean that people wont use Multishot?

 

Except for weapons that have kick-! ammo conservation which will then go on to lose that ability if you use multishot.

That is a common conclusion. The issue I see coming is that all those weapons that were polarized with multishot as part of the build are now geared toward having what may be a detrimental mod and now must be repolarized. The more weapons you have, the more that need to be redone.

 

The people hurt most are the people like me, who would use forma to bring mediocre weapons up and may end up with a collection of things to fix rather than improved.

 

But this is what happens when they tear up the foundation over and over instead of getting around to building the house.

[vazerd68]

If they only straight nerf multishot without touching ennemi scalling / weapons stats / other mods that's gonna mess things a whole lot (useless secondaries, useless low clip size weapons, useless non-op weapons).

 

If it is part of a larger rework on the scalling of everything that come in A SINGLE UPDATE it should be fine.

 

As long as i can do math to figure out the best builds ...

 

Edit : I want a forma refund

 

Edit 2 : How many weapons are still status viable after that ?

Edited September 5, 2015 by vazerd68

[Barkano]

guys give up dont matter what you say DE will do the f*** they want.

[Hatzeputt]

Anything in Warframe, having a rational explanation. Your failure is strong.

 

 

 

 

>this asinine strawmanning.

 

Go away.

 

 

 

Eh. It's based on my experience with other games invalidating progress and time, and my experience with the level of care DE puts into things. That is to say, very little. I didn't mind losing coptering and parkour 2.0 is cool, but the last time they balanced ammo, the braton prime got 375 and the soma prime got 800. That's just nonsensical. Why would I think this would be any better?

Will it get any better if you cry about it months in advance? If you expect it to fail you can prepare yourself and if it happens you can say, told you so, if it does not happen and the change is good, you can be happy! But spreading doom and gloom, tears, months in advance is a waste of time and effort. 

 

This is a great opportunity to bring primaries and secondaries closer to melee, making melee more viable and could also be a means to deal with stupid enemy armour scaling and the folly that is 4xCP beats all.

 

I will admit it also has some potential for failure but lets face it even without multishot the top tier primaries and secondaries are powerful enough to carry you deep into TIV endless territory. 

 

The multishot fix would also deal with secondaries being more powerful than primaries so in my book the potential of setting things right is far greater than the potential of messing things up. If things go bad a new meta will be created but that is about it. The idea behind this change is a good one! Let us see how they will implement it! 

Edited September 5, 2015 by Hatzeputt

[low1991]

Edit 2 : How many weapons are still status viable after that ?

Only weapon with top DPS excluding multishot will be viable at so-called end game.

[Sir_Alex_Traffo]

I think we're assuming all the weapons will suffer from this while probably in DE's mind multishot will just become as a critical mod or a fire rate mod, something you won't put on some weapons because you have no reasons to but that will work great on others.

I see everyone here assuming that the change will make us remove multishot from every weapon while it won't be the case.

I like the idea, I'm curious to see how this will affect my main weapons which are bows and Synoid Gammacore, though I know I'll have to Forma again many weapons as I have them all and multishot is pretty much everywhere.

Still, I can deal with it, it's good for multishot to have a reason to be used or not to be used, unlike serration.

I support the change and even if I really don't always like what Glen says, he's right about the matter: calm down, DE will work it out in the best way possible, just wait and see before going nuts, it's gonna be alright!

Edited September 5, 2015 by siralextraffo

[1N33DM0N3Y]

Only because people are still watching the devstream. This is going to erupt with displeasure soon enough.

 

I stopped as soon as I heard about the nerf. Too pissed off to watch it for another second.

This lifestream is the worst devstream ever when the real BOSSES Steve & Scott are not present for such hot topic like this.

[peekitea]

There's this thing called ammo restore...

 

Sure. Credits and resources we don't use, sure. But I love standing around and waiting for the ammo restores to give me enough ammo when I am in the middle of 40 minutes in a T4 Survival. 

[(PSN)ElZilcho]

Will it get any better if you cry about it months in advance? If you expect it to fail you can prepare yourself and if it happens you can say, told you so, if it does not happen and the change is good, you can be happy! But spreading doom and gloom, tears, months in advance is a waste of time and effort.

 

Nobody is crying about it. I'm pointing out what I see as a valid concern. If it comes out good, then okay, but even if the changes are great I'm going to have to repolarize a lot of weapons. That sucks. I'm not going to like that, and other people won't either.

[peekitea]

guys give up dont matter what you say DE will do the f*** they want.

 

Of course. But it's better to be disgruntle about it than to roll over. Shows you didn't give up.

[Mak_Gohae]

There's this thing called ammo restore...

 

So a change to open up modding will now require you to lose a mod slot if you choose to use the mod?

 

This is just like the change to launchers when they decided to cut the ammo to a couple of clips max.

All it did was to have people lose a slot on their builds.

 

And, btw, on weapons that use mutation mods putting on multishot is pretty much going to negate those mods.

[Culaio]

People rumor mongering and getting preemptively butt hurt over things they have yet no real clue about, lets me lose faith in gaming communities.

What 99% seems to have overlooked or overheard is the fact that it was also said, clip size and ammo reserve will be looked at and probably enemy scaling as well.  

 

Save your doom mongering and ship tosting for the time the changes go live, at least then your wgining might make sense.

 

It wont matter if they dont also double ammo in pick ups and ammo restores. People are worried because this change is not small and not something that can be added quickly, its HUGE rework, where a LOT can go wrong, and will take a LOT time to balance, look at pvp, how much time DE spends balancing weapons for it and they still sometimes make mistakes where they need to rebalance something again. Also this change must go together with fixing of enemy scaling in endless missions(especially void).

 

For example my internet connection is not most reliable, and while it doesnt make problems in non-endless missions but when playing endless missions I frequently get disconnected when playing with people because of that I prefer solo void survival, and because of that in higher tier void survival I bring my strongest weapons which already go through ammo VERY fast after 30min in, I already use multiple ammo restores, god knows how many I will go through if my ammo consumption will be doubled.

[(PSN)MikeCopa]

Solution: Incorporate the stats of mandatory mods into the weapons. My proposed changes are:

 

A. Remove Multishot mods and dmg mods (except for mods like Heavy Caliber since it's not mandatory; but tone down its damage so that it won't become another Serration) but increase the base damage and base proc of the weapons. To prevent lack of modding variety, replace 2 mod slots which are used for damage and multishot mods with exilus mod slots for utility mods like eagle eye, hush, eject magazine, etc.

 

If you want to change the mandatory elemental mods too...

 

B. Further increase the damage buffs gained by the removal of multishot and damage mods, but change it so that the elemental mods become "change x% of your damage/shot to y elemental."

For example: You have a rifle that does 25 puncture damage, 25 impact damage, and 50 slash damage per shot. Then, you slot in an "stormbringer" mod that change 20% of the rifle's damage/shot to electricity elemental. Now the rifle has 20 puncture, 20 impact, 40 slash, and 20 electricity. 

 

Or.....

 

C. Fix the enemy scaling and remove the mandatory damage mods and change the elemental mods to be like the one I proposed in point B. Instead of making the enemies become bullet sponges, make them smarter to be able to use covers and more dangerous formations as they level. 

Example:

- Lvl 1-19 grunts are dumb, they rush and try to kill you while ignoring covers.

- Lvl 20-29 grunts will try to take cover and blindfire when they know you're near them.

- Lvl 30-39 grunts will try to flank you and use deployable ballast cover if available.

- Lvl 40+ grunts will take cover behind shield lancer waves and disperse to find cover when the shield lancers are dead. They will also stay close to a defensive eximus or nullifiers until the barrier is destroyed.

 

This is exactly what I had in mind, couldn't have said it any better. I just can't wrap my head around the decision the devs came up with.

+1

[Deshiel]

A mod that magicaly duplicates your bullets for free never felt out of place for ya? I knew this would happen.

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

This would be true if it only applied to bullets, but you get 2 arrows, 2 grenades etc. Also, 2 I can maybe believe, but 3 is pushing it to the limits in pistols.

Ideally, they should all hit the same enemy.  That's not counting the AoE or Punch Through effect. Explosives are the only thing that you might want a little divergence on.

 

The problem with that is that explosives already had their ammo nerfed twice.  This is going to kill their usefulness.  The Angstrum use to be my favorite pistol in the game; it was just too cool. Now? It's too bad that it's crap to use.

 

(Carpet bombing pistol that already used multiple ammo per shot. Now -1.) shares ammo with primary weapons. -2.) Had it's ammo counts reduced to unreasonably low numbers  {that primary weapons can use up}. -3.) Had it's ammo type switch to a rare ammo type in addition to having its count over-nerfed. -4.) Now, in addition to all that, even extra rocket procced will steal additional ammo.)

 

If DE takes the high road, and is smart instead of lazy, they will stop calling multi-shot a bug, and they will dial it back in a reasonable way. How?

 

1. GIVE SECONDARY EXPLOSIVE WEAPONS THEIR OWN AMMO TYPE OR SWITCH THEM BACK TO PISTOL AMMO (WITH APPROPRIATE VALUES)

 

2. MAKE MULTISHOT CONSUME A FRACTION OF THE AMMO AS A REGULAR SHOT (e.g. IF YOU GET FOUR ADDITIONAL SHOTS THEN IT COSTS YOU ONLY ONE ADDITIONAL BULLET).  THIS WILL NERF THE SYSTEM WITHOUT MAKING MULTISHOT ENTIRELY MEANINGLESS AND WITHOUT MAKING IT A POORMAN'S FIRERATE.

 

3. MAKE LAUNCHERS COMPLETELY IMMUNE TO THE ADDITIONAL COSTS OF MULTISHOT.

 

These three simple changes will let them nerf multishot subtly, without it being a trainwreck of an overnerf. I don't think it will happen, but there you have it.

[Xlazius]

I feel ya homie. Might be an idea to take a couple of months from the game and play other stuff, if they do decide to go through with this. At least in that sort of time frame one can hope that they might have reworked enemies/weapons to counter the multishot nerf. 

[peekitea]

A mod that magicaly duplicates your bullets for free never felt out of place for ya? I knew this would happen.

 

A mod that mutates other ammo to a precise one makes a lot of sense too. A mod that shares the time of death with your dying kubrow makes a lot of sense.

[Deshiel]

A mod that mutates other ammo to a precise one makes a lot of sense too. A mod that shares the time of death with your dying kubrow makes a lot of sense.

 

a mod that alters your clip to convert different ammunition is okay, nothing weird about that. As for kubrows, I don't know what you are babbling about, there are only mods for longer bleed out duration. Meaning that your dog was moded to survive longer.

[Institute-Marksman]

They finally made Multishot make sense. When I first got it, I though shooting an extra bullet would cost extra ammo. But it didn't. I thought it was weird, but I rolled with it.

You can't just expect to shoot extra bullets but not consume additional ammo. That's not how guns work.