Feedback Megathread: Saryn Revisited.

[Thaumatos]

Miasma with the rework works ok up until Armor scaling units hit around level 50.

Welcome to every other damage skill in the game.

 

You've been enjoying too much damage with Saryn.  Now that she's been rebalanced, its time to wait for Scott's damage pass.

[EmptyDevil]

Scott has some other tweaks/buffs for Saryn on the way IIRC.

[PnOyLeeT]

maybe she was released too soon or that New saryn is just the way to keep you guys playing :) .. in salt

 

then hot fix dun dun dun ... 

[Husla]

So Saryn got nerfed from godlike nuke master to only an excellent crowd crippler. Wow, that's so terrible. I'll have to actually shoot my Boltor Prime a few times.

Saryn changed from being a 1button nuker to a 3 button nuker. Excellent rework.

[Inarticulate]

I've been testing out a few (probably crummy) builds on Saryn on the mid-level star map (enemy levels 15-30, mostly Corpus and Grineer) running solo. I'm not terribly fond of running melee on frames squishier than Rhino (this is mid-level star map, so Rhino is still pretty durable here), so I haven't really used Toxic Lash outside of the Simulacrum.

 

Spore

 

Spore seems to be rather unreliable from my experience so far. I've had multiple instances where I have failed to pop Spore nodes on an enemy using an Ignis while zoomed. Additionally, it appears that there is a noticeable delay between casting Spore and the Spore nodes appearing on the enemy, and killing the enemy within that interval prevents the Spore nodes from spreading.

 

Additionally, there are some enemies that appear to not grow visible Spore nodes to aim at, e.g. Orokin Drones and Grineer Rollers. I haven't tested thoroughly, but it appears that Grineer Blunts are also targettable and do not grow Spore nodes.

 

Molt

 

Regenerating Molt is still a build staple. I don't feel it's right to build the mod into the ability, but it is making it difficult to fit all of the mods I want to fit on my builds. I haven't been running particularly high-level content, so I don't really have a comment on Molt's durability at this point. It would still be nice to get the Snow Globe and Tectonics treatment, though.

 

Miasma

 

Instead of using Miasma for damage, I find I'm using it more often as a stun. That said, it's not very good as a stun, and I'm pretty sure I've more than once failed to stun a Grineer or Corpus heavy unit that was standing only a few feet away.

 

From testing, Miasma's stun is not affected by Duration, i.e. I do not see any difference in stun duration between maximum and minimum Duration builds. Enemies are stunned for anywhere between 2 and 5 seconds in the Simulacrum. The earliest recovery I've seen was exactly at the third tick, and all enemies that haven't yet recovered by the sixth tick will recover exactly on the sixth tick. I'm actually relying on my 133%-status-chance-per-second Radiation-Toxin Ignis for crowd control more than anything else.

 

Modding

 

I'm pretty sure none of the builds I've been able to make have been particularly optimal. I've given up on running Primed Flow and now simply run maxed Efficiency with Primed Continuity canceling out the negative Duration from Fleeting Expertise (4/5). Vitality, Rage, and Regenerative Molt are enough to keep me alive if I'm not being stupid. I currently have Stretch and Intensity in the last two slots, but I feel like I'm missing some oomph to the build.

 

I don't feel the need to run more than neutral Duration because I don't use Toxic Lash, Miasma's stun is unaffected by Duration, and Spore's default 12-second duration is more than long enough.

 

I was running out of energy too quickly with just Primed Flow and Rage and felt like I was forced to start every mission with an Energy restore. I don't have the same issue running Streamline and Fleeting Expertise with Rage, but now I'm forced to use Primed Continuity to maintain neutral Duration.

 

Strength is mostly used to boost Molt and Regenerating Molt.

 

Suggestions: Spore

 

Spore should be instantaneous. I don't mind if the animation takes a few frames to play out, but the Spore nodes should be poppable as soon as the ability is cast and similarly should be poppable on nearby enemies instantly when a Spore node is popped.

 

Spore should either (1) allow soft targetting or (2) allow casting on the floor (or other surfaces) to create traps like Frost's Freeze. Spore should also either (1) not allow targetting on enemies that cannot grow Spore nodes or (2) grow Spore nodes on everything.

 

Spore could (1) stagger an enemy when the Spore nodes appear and/or (2) slow affected enemies (approximately 10-15% per Spore node at max rank, unaffected by mods). This would significantly help for newer players leveling up Saryn.

 

Suggestions: Miasma

 

Just please make Miasma's stun consistent, preferably at the current maximum of 5 seconds (if still unaffected by mods) or equal to the duration of Miasma's damage (if affected by mods).

 

EDIT: Right. The Corrosive proc would be nice, too.

 

Other comments

 

I like the new Orphid skin, but please do something about the invisible heels.

Edited November 7, 2015 by Inarticulate

[MaverickZero]

Welcome to every other damage skill in the game.

 

You've been enjoying too much damage with Saryn.  Now that she's been rebalanced, its time to wait for Scott's damage pass.

Don't forget that those other damage skills land immediate damage not over time.

 

While the end result might be close, most will surpass the DoT without heavily relying on 3 or more skills.

 

Example:

1) Accelerant + Fireball = 8065 burst damage + the Fire DoT.

1) Accelerant + World on Fire = 8065 burst damage (on multiple targets) + the Fire DoT.

[Windy_Wind]

To make miasma actually worth casting vs higher level enemy, let's say 60+, just give it 100% corrosive proc for every tick really. She's now a debuff frame, and It should be logical that she can also debuff armor too Doing so would make miasma worth casting for its cost and for higher level game play. If you look at how frost 4th ability was reworked, you should know what I mean.

Edited November 7, 2015 by Windy_Wind

[MaverickZero]

To make miasma actually worth casting vs higher level enemy, let's say 60+, just give it 100% corrosive proc for every tick really. She's now a debuff frame, and It should be logical that she can also debuff armor too Doing so would make miasma worth casting for its cost and for higher level game play. If you look at how frost 4th ability was reworked, you should know what I mean.

Something like this?

https://forums.warframe.com/index.php?/topic/557582-what-buffsqol-do-you-believe-would-fixhelp-saryn/?p=6285587

[evilfluffy]

Saryn was deemed "superstrong" before, even though her damage actually did fall off rather quite. She had the ability to clear a whole map of trash mobs for sure. She had one extremely weak ability Contagion and the 3 others were applicable and useable. So when a frame that had those things you list are "reworked" and lose all those features and become a overly complicated and melee oriented frame that excels at nothing while also getting a nerf to her EHP there is no reason to voice any concerns right?

 

You know molt can spread toxic proc and spore just buy casting miasma near it right (within molt's range)? You also know you can toxic lash spores on you molt to spread toxic and viral too (toxic I am pretty sure unless someone else was spreading toxic procs) right?

 

She went from press 4 to nuke everything to a game of spreading a viral and toxin proc and casting miasma only when you feel things need more encouragement to their demise.  Though to me, I say she is buffed fully but that is because I used all her abilities before the changes (yes even contagion).

Edited November 7, 2015 by evilfluffy

[Djego27]

Umm... if you look at the entire video, he returns to test it with a different build that is more akin to what you're talking about. His dragon nikana is based in radiation viral full status to keep it up, and it's still doing **** for dmg.

 

Well he killed nearly all the HP of the moas later in the video and you most likely did not one hit L70 corrupted moas before the changes with miasma(even with the bread and butter 235% strength misama with only 13% duration). Used in combination with weapon dps he would have killed both in the 2. test. Overall it is not terrible with some power strength on the frame, however it should be a bit stronger at base and her other 3 skills should not just used to up the miasma damage but should provide the ability to stay alive reasonable well and be a real alternative to miasma spam as far as total damage output goes(what toxic lesh tries to archive but overall just in a to limited scope to provide reasonalbe weapon based scaling with misama as optional CC/extra damage tool, quite similar as WoF works).

Edited November 7, 2015 by Djego27

[XxCurtennoxX]

This feedback thread got a whole lot of math in it in a very short time.

 

God damn it.

[PR1D3]

Saryn changed from being a 1button nuker to a 3 button nuker. Excellent rework.

 

You say that, but so many people are deeming that "overly complicated". I find it simple, I mean come on. Its 3 buttons for a combo, its not a Hadoken. 

[(PSN)OMGITSNUKERXD]

She's pretty much the same, it takes slightly longer to set up the damage but she does a bit more damage to compensate.

 

Not really as good as others, but at least she's not Mag.

Yeah.Mag ain't that good any more.

[VoidNomade]

Was Saryn ever used (read: wanted in a group setup) in a t4 def/surv anything of that sort before the rework? And when yes, why?

[DrBorris]

I have taken Saryn into both high level Infested and T4 survivals. The problem was not her lack of energy, damage, or CC, it was her survivability. Sure, her single target DPS is not that great, but her damage increses EXPONENTIALLY as the group of enemies increases (Due to Spore transfering Toxin procs). It is her survivability that sucks. Without any sure-fire way to keep those Bombard rockets in check (Molt does in one rocket) Saryn has trouble being able to even doe her toxin thang because all of the time is spent spamming Molt to stay away from those rockets.

 

So... along with a EHP re-buff, she could really use a DR ability (and I hate DR abilities because I think they are lazy ways to increase survivability, but it would fit Saryn's role quite nicely).

Edited November 7, 2015 by DrBorris

[VoidNomade]

I have taken Saryn into both high level Infested and T4 survivals. The problem was not her lack of energy, damage, or CC, it was her survivability. Sure, her single target DPS is not that great, but her damage increses EXPONENTIALLY as the group of enemies increases (Due to Spore transfering Toxin procs). It is her survivability that sucks. Without any sure-fire way to keep those Bombard rockets in check (Molt does in one rocket) Saryn has trouble being able to even doe her toxin thang because all of the time is spent spamming Molt to stay away from those rockets.

 

So... along with a EHP re-buff, she could really use a DR ability (and I hate DR abilities because I think they are lazy ways to increase survivability, but it would fit Saryn's role quite nicely).

 

Well the damage reduction from high level ancients is ridiculous though.

[CelticMoss]

Was Saryn ever used (read: wanted in a group setup) in a t4 def/surv anything of that sort before the rework? And when yes, why?

Cause she never died i always did T4 one hour runs with saryn.

This nerf to her hp and the fact i can't use miasma with molt up really hurts my play style.

[Autongnosis]

Imho a good fix would be giving to the Molt and to Saryn a duration-based DR so you can at least cushion damage because as of now from what i've reckoned she has a super hard time surviving anything serious.

That said, about the rest i'm not really able to give feedback yet since my Saryn is still cooking at the moment. So until i get my hands on her i'm holding off on judging the rework.

On paper it looks potentially real nice, in practice if so many people are raging i'm not inclined to dismiss all claims of badness right away until i can actually try all that in-game.

[VoidNomade]

Cause she never died i always did T4 one hour runs with saryn.

This nerf to her hp and the fact i can't use miasma with molt up really hurts my play style.

The hp loss is minuscule though in t4. those ~200 hp doesn´t really matter. I wonder though what changed for you with the molt.

[PsychedelicSnake]

Imho a good fix would be giving to the Molt and to Saryn a duration-based DR so you can at least cushion damage because as of now from what i've reckoned she has a super hard time surviving anything serious.

That said, about the rest i'm not really able to give feedback yet since my Saryn is still cooking at the moment. So until i get my hands on her i'm holding off on judging the rework.

On paper it looks potentially real nice, in practice if so many people are raging i'm not inclined to dismiss all claims of badness right away until i can actually try all that in-game.

I'm enjoying her so far. She can use a few minor tweaks here and there, but I feel she is better off now than before. It's also important to note that people that are angry tend to be louder and drown out people that are not.

[Cubewano]

It would be better if the abilities cost less energy.

it would certainly be a step forward. they also need to revert her health changes and buff each skill individually, de was focused so much on giving saryn's skill synergy that they completely forgot they should be able to function on their own. using skills in tandem should make an effect better, they shouldn't be essential for it to be good at all. 

Edited November 7, 2015 by Cubewano

[Dis_conected]

ok so from my point of view there are 3 problems with saryn the first is the reduction to heath which can be ether compensated with an armor buff or rolled back.

the second of problems is that the 3 ability combo decreases her "kill speed" in comparison to other frames and weapons. the third is that spite all the energy and using 3 skills there it is just so hard to make it worth it as it is easy for this combo to miss its mark so to speak. so how do we solve the second and third problem?

 

simple bye bye miasma. i propose a new skill designed to synergies with her third skill. i call this skill germination strike.

 

Germination Strike: Hits a single target turning that target into a living bomb stunning it for .5 of a second and slowing the targets movement speed. when killed the germinated target explodes dealing damage in a small radius and spreading all status currently on the target to all enemy's in a significantly larger radius.

 

this new skill adds synergy with her third skill and changes the purpose of her design from dot to debuffing. this also allows for more significant and faster game play

 

thank you for your time

[Feallike]

Venom: Procs VIRAL AND CORROSIVE. Spreads automatically to everything within the area no shooting the dumb spores that is a S#&$ty gimmick no one likes, and it should slow down, stack, and the elements need to stack ontop of eachother if you pop a spore. That makes it in a way a infinite scaling because you can get enemies to 20% HP and 0% armor after 4 pops. That makes it a really good skill.

 

Molt: Ability scales off both your armor, and health. It gives Regen molt automatically it is no longer a augment.

 

Toxic Lash: Dump this useless ability, or make it give 3x damage to your melee. OR make it effect range weapons like everyone wants.

 

 

Contagion: Does 500 damage per second, gains 2x damage per corrosive and Viral debuff. It lasts for 5 seconds. This makes this a super strong ability by itself but when combined with the other abilities extremely crazy strong,

[vomder]

So much denial in here. All these posts seem to just support blindly every change DE makes. They can show you all in your face cold, hard evidence and you'd still cover your ears and eyes and deny it. What the hell is wrong with you all? Saryn is completely all over the place stat wise and her skills are messed up just to create artificial complexity.

 

"No nukers" we still have nukers and they are really good at what they do which is way faster and efficient than Saryn right now.

"You have to melee" with those god damn stats? She can't take damage at high levels. Do you guys even go out of Venus or Void Tower 1?

"Use Gas Ignis" So Saryn HAS to be locked into one weapon to be useful? That sounds like bad design if she needs a crutch to be able to do stuff.

"OP is elitist and wrong" Look who's posting. All of these "we are always right. DE is always right." users. sheesh.

 

Lots of frames kill faster than Saryn, tank more damage, have skills that shine on their own and compliment others without a forced combo. By the time you set up the one combo, someone else already cleared up. But hey, you guys keep on denial. Just like "proving us wrong doesn't make you right", pretending that there's no problems doesn't make it go away.

 

Unfortunately there are a lot of blind players who can't ever criticize anything de does. Subsequently it's why things like the grind have only gotten worse and will continue to do so.

[CrazyArson]

Reposting my suggestions to bring Saryn up to standard from another thread at the requests of other forum users.

 

1) Sayrn needs a dump stat.

 

New Sayrn currently needs to be modded for Power Strength, Duration, Range and most importantly Efficiency in order to fuction. Players are not given a good indication of what stats to optimize for and attempting to mod for all stats will result in a subpar build. This also leaves very little mod space for defensive mods such as Vitality, Steel Fiber and Rage or support mods such as Flow and Natural Talent.

 

Change: Make Range the dump stat. The range on Spores, Molt and Miasma can be determined by Power Strength instead. Similar to how Nova's MP is affected by Duration instead of Range.

 

2) Bump Sayrn's base health back to 150.

 

This seems to be the only general consensus on the forums despite differing opinions on whether this rework was a nerf or a buff. There is no good reason for Saryn's health to be nerfed in the first place.

 

3) Abilities need to costs less.

 

DE has been experimenting with casting in succession starting with Atlas so it's weird for them to not experiment using Saryn's new kit, especially when she needs to chain abilities to make the the most out of her kit.

 

Change: Either halve all ability base costs or abilities cost half after each consecutive cast within a 1 second time window.

 

4) Spores

 

     - Spores casts in a cone to alleviate the problem of precise casting and give the skill an initial boost.

     - Targets' movement speed is slowed by 5% for each spore attached due to the sheer weight of the giant blob.

     - Change the initial spore amount back to 6 from the current 3.

 

5) Molt

 

     - Increase explosion range to Miasma's range.

     - Invulnerability for the first 3 seconds after cast.

     - All enemies within explosion range must attack the molt and ranged targets are more inclined to focus on molt.

 

6) Toxic Slash

 

     - Either add functionality to ranged weapons at lessened effectiveness and make it a toggle ...

     - Or remove entirely and give Saryn a poison/viral/corrosive variant of Accelerant.

 

7) Miasma

 

     - Give miasma the +200% bonus damage to the base right of the bat. Seriously, it needs it.

     - Each tick of miasma inflicts a guaranteed corrosive proc. Yes, they will stack.

     - If Viral is present: Reset the duration of ALL status effects on the target at every tick of miasma.

     - If Toxic is present: Target is staggered at every tick of miasma.

 

Conclusion:

 

I'm severely disappointed with the quality of Saryn's rework compared to how Excalibur's and Frost's turned out. Reworks are supposed to revise a frame's skill set and bring it up to the game's current play level, which this one severely fails to do. I do admit the new Sayrn is much more fun to play than before her rework. However she lost lots of effectiveness in the process. I believe if the changes above are in place, she would have a place in the meta as a debuff/CC frame.

 

I don't believe DOT is a viable theme in this game at its current state. Horde mode games are about eliminating waves of enemies as fast as possible at any given time and Saryn's current kit cannot hold up at later levels when armor scaling becomes insane. DOT cannot work by itself and needs  complementary status effects to keep Saryn safe while the damage is ticking. Seeing how DE is adverse about giving Saryn more damage, CC is the way to go.