Feedback Megathread: Saryn Revisited.

[RealPandemonium]

frost , the defensive tank. wave clears better than saryn. every other warframe who wave clears well has a lot more utility than saryn

saryn has to use viral and toxic procs to wave clear as effective as other frames.

saryn has to use more weapons, abilities and actions to deal as much damage as other warframes at a much slower rate

no thanks. i'll take literally any other warframe any day and use a penta to do three times as much as a sayrn

Two-status Miasma also has 2.4x Avalanche's damage while Spores halve enemy HP, which effectively makes Miasma deal 4.8x Avalanche's damage.  Even if you lower duration a little and take Avalanche's secondary damage into account, two-status Miasma still beats Avalanche as a nuke.  Not to mention that Frost's latest rework loaded him up with cheese to satisfy the infinite content lobby, giving him mass CC, snooze-inducing defensive capability, and an armor bandaid/nuke buff all in one.  Any explosive weapon will deal more damage than any warframe power, but no weapon can apply Viral to an entire room indefinitely while also nuking a 35m radius.  

[viamont]

OK guys you have taken a few good steps in the right direction but theres still tweaks needed:

 

-------------------------Stats-------------------------

 

You want her to be a melee caster so she NEEDS her to be up to the task

 

HP: Rise up to pre rework levels (150)

Armor: 225 (she needs the armor to go in safetly)

 

-----------------------Powers-------------------------

 

Spores: THANKS for reducing the cost on molt, thats absolutly FANTASTIC. As a side WoL change i just tough a little bit ago this could potentially make saryn players even MORE hapy:

 

When Saryn casts Spores WITHOUT any enemy on the aim point AND while theres a Molt in range Saryn automatically casts said spore ON the molt, with this people wont need to circle or move their camera (while in the middle of the combat) to "spore" their "molt" this will speed up the combo, and from a gameplay wise point of vew makes it easy to understand implement and use (its there an enemy on the molt "aim"? cast on enemy, its there no enemy on the molt "aim"? cast on Molt)

 

Molt: i dont hate the duration extension...but the thing its not what this power needs. Molt NEEDS THIS:

 

Invulnerability when cast ( 1/2/3/4 seconds per rank), This will make it usefull for HIGH rank levels while helping saryn charge that extra damage boost it gives when Miasma its cast up close, it doesnt need more time, I REPEAT it DOESNT need extra duration.

Slight Range boost, it really needs it from courent one to be 5/8/12/15

 

Toxic lash: I tink the energy boost per kill its an interesting change, it invites people to be up close and thats a great thing but it still needs some little extra QoL changes.

 

Change the "damage reduction" from parry to ALWAYS active, this will make people feel safer on close combat and allows them to be more active, make it to be like this:  15/20/25/30% afected by power strenght.

 

I tink the recastable part its not bad per se, BUT if you want to go this way why not instead make it a toggle? that way people will keep it up more often, with the active damage recuction people will feel (again) more compeled to go up close.

 

Miasma: Just like with spores make it so when cast near a molt the energy cost its reduced, belive me people this will make the players feel less constrained about energy cost and much more willing to go all out with her combos.

 

Give her back her corrosive procc chance, 100% on the first Tic then 25% (modifiable with power strenght) per extra tic, this will complete her "debuffer" kit you want her to work with. Make it so when an enemy has a toxin and or viral procc the stun duration its increased to +1 per procc (this meens a basic miasma will give the regular stun while each procc adds a +1)

 

I hope you guys consider this changes, as a main Saryn user i can tell you i would love you lots for them

 

Also this is a sort of repost with some tweaks

[Vardog]

So...17.11.0 patch hit and there's no more changes to Saryn. Does that mean you want to leave her as she is? Hopefully there were no changes because you're working on a bigger Saryn patch you'll release in the near future. If you leave her like this I'll be very disappointed. You made her much more complicated to play without actually adressing any of her issues, no one wants a Saryn in their party.

[GhostLacuna]

Hopefully the devstream will shed some light on saryns rework. 

[Inarticulate]

I tink the recastable part its not bad per se, BUT if you want to go this way why not instead make it a toggle? that way people will keep it up more often, with the active damage recuction people will feel (again) more compeled to go up close.

People keep mentioning making Toxic Lash a toggle without realizing the ramifications of doing so. The only (global) mechanics currently in the game that allow you to regenerate energy while a toggle ability is active are energy orbs and the Rift Plane. This would mean that while Toxic Lash is toggled on, Saryn would be unable to regenerate energy using Energy Siphon, Energy Vampire, and pizzas.

 

Making Toxic Lash a toggle will make Saryn's already inefficient energy usage even worse even if she can still regenerate energy by popping Spores.

Edited November 14, 2015 by Haldos
Removed hidden post.

[mcryseria]

It's fine to let something sit-in (in this case DE-Scott said ''marinate'') for a while but the Devs really have to to take into consideration that Molt instantly gets destroyed on higher level missions. Spore, Toxic Lash and Miasma are okay for now, the tweaks can wait but are really needed.

[[DE]Danielle]

Hopefully the devstream will shed some light on saryns rework. 

 

In case you might have missed today's devstream, Scott explained that we're going to let the current hotfixes sit with Saryn. As we move forward with her rework we'll be checking stats to further evaluate what tweaks are necessary to further improve her overall kit. 

 

For the full discussion check out the time-stamp below:

 

https://youtu.be/xCa3MPs6byQ?t=35m22s

[Synpai]

Can we please get some kind of Icon/indicator for a target that'll take the full damage from Miasma (affected by both toxin and viral)?

[Cubewano]

It's fine to let something sit-in (in this case DE-Scott said ''marinate'') for a while but the Devs really have to to take into consideration that Molt instantly gets destroyed on higher level missions. Spore, Toxic Lash and Miasma are okay for now, the tweaks can wait but are really needed.

yeah, letting something settle for a while before changing it is fine, but when something is obviously ineffective waiting does nothing for the situation. instances such as molt for example, molts problem isn't some lack of proper understanding or niche strategy, it just flat doesn't have the health to take late game enemies. 

Edited November 13, 2015 by Cubewano

[Vardog]

Oh well, thought this rework would get me back into Warfarme since Saryn is the only Frame I used but she's still the same, squishy Frame with almost no CC, no Utility and low end game viability. Gonna check back when and if Saryn gets another, proper rework.

Edited November 13, 2015 by Vardog

[DiosGX]

How about adding that every mob killed by spores restores 5 energy??Just my thinking about this.it would help with sustaining energy for her

It's really not needed.

 

Hopped into an ODS yesterday to toy around. When there's an ancient healer and disruptor nearby, you need only bounce around with your melee here-and-there rather than massively mauling everything in sight. If those two enemies are around, congrats, you just earned yourself unlimited Energy Regeneration. 

 

Now blow their heads off with a bow when you're done filling up to max again with Regen Molt.

This saryn update @(*()$ owns so hard. Has made me turn her into my current main.

 

Props, DE. Props. All the props and a basket of fruit.

o3o!

[Roboplus]

Regenerative Molt.

 

Needs to be.

 

Inherent.

[DelialFallen]

I can't say they are wrong.  The rework does make Saryn fantastic.  Molt could be more durable, health be increased and such, but she's more viable in a larger range of situations and group composition than before.  Granted, much of her performance requires appropriate weapons to be equipped and modded correctly.

 

I find that using the Mios takes care of most issues I had with her hitherto.

[Senoinya]

You know what? You can make Saryn a perfectly viable endgame frame with just six tiny changes. Six. That's all you'd need to do. Not one is even anything massive that would take ages to do, or need tons of programming, or new animations, or replacements of abilities, or anything.

 

1: As others have suggested, bring her HP up, or drastically improve her armor. She's clearly intended to be meleeing a lot, and there's no way a frame is going to survive a melee playstyle with that HP, that armor, and no defense-based abilities against T4 enemies. T4 Crewman shotguns alone will destroy Saryn in seconds, regardless of how you build her, or what you do, unless you just avoid using Toxic Lash altogether, which makes her ineffective, which leads to questions as to why you're using Saryn. This is purely a statistical change, and an easy one to do.

 

2: Next, make Toxic Lash just give you a damage reduction, flat out. No nonsense, just straight reduction. Right now, a small toxin damage bonus and a very small reduction that only counts when you're blocking is not exactly going to help much. You can keep the reduction where it is now (especially if she gets the already mentioned HP buff), but don't tie it to blocking.

 

3: Then just make Toxic Lash allow for channeling to auto-activate without the cost of energy to do it. So any channeling mods you have equipped on your melee weapon will be put to use without wasting energy that Saryn really doesn't have in the first place. This would not only boost her survivability, it'd make her 3 actually be worth using on its own rather than just being a spore popper.

 

4: Make the previous Molt instantly detonate upon the creation of a second Molt. Spreading any spores that were placed on it, and dealing toxin damage.

 

5: Make Toxic Lash a toggle.

 

6: Improve Molt's HP. Duration is nice, but it doesn't help much when Molt was already dying before the old duration ended.

 

Do this, and Saryn will be perfect.

[taiiat]

 

Give her back her corrosive procc chance

how do you give back something that never existed? (not that Corrosive Status woudn't be visually cool for aesthetic reasons to push the DoT theme harder)

 

 

Miasma being cheaper when Molt is in Range sounds neat though.

 

People keep mentioning making Toxic Lash a toggle without realizing the ramifications of doing so.

Toxic Lash is already effectively 0.6E per Second - which is very low as it is.

i'm certainly content with how it's casted as it stands.

 

- - - - - 

 

Edit:

oh, and guess what, yeah, i still want my Health back.

Edited November 14, 2015 by taiiat

[JinxedEye]

Then your doing it wrong. Alot of those players seem to think of Saryn as a nuke frame, built for the lowest possible duration for the maximum effect. Even her arcane helmet for negative duration was seen as a buff. The devs never Intel for her to work this way, and when they finaly fixed it, everyone suddenly lost their cheese frame.

I'm sure it's already been said, Saryn is a much better utility frame. I use to main Saryn, and I plan to continue to main her. She's still one of the best frames for me, able to play support, as well as clean up anything left. Going into 40 minutes of dark sector in sedan, she was still able to clean up a room better than ever before. While she does need some setup, anyone who says they never play with ev are clearly lieing.

Iv got a max range and duration build. Only about 20% damage, but that's more than enough to clear a lot of enemies...

Strong suggestion, stop building get for miasma. That's no longer her main ability, unless you set up for it. Miasma is like a bubble frosts Avalanche. It's a quick failsafe when things get dicey, and can be used in an emergency to clean alot of thing.

[Weltraumfred]

Yeah she's totally awesome. I can put viral procs on all my enemies. It just takes a little time and a little aim, and "bam" everyone takes double damage. There is totally no other frame that can do that (and slow enemies at the same time, or put antimatter drops on enemies or something...). 

 

Toxic waste, that's what she is.

[akira_him]

a utility frame

that have no cc, squishy as hell, with only a x2 multipler that doesn't work on shields

-points and laughs-

come on, 20%strength won't be a panic button, not even with 100%strength

Edited November 14, 2015 by akira_him

[DSMatticus]

I've said it a dozen times and I'll probably end up saying it dozens more: Saryn does not have a role in the game anymore. She used to be a speedfarm frame. She had one trick and one trick only: using ability damage to kill as many enemies as quickly as possible. It was good for speedrunning non-endless missions, it was good for making defense go faster, it was good for getting more affinity out of interception missions, and it was good enough for survival. But like most direct damage abilities, she ran out of steam at the 30-40 minute/wave mark (well, okay, most run out of steam well before that). Past that point, you used miasma to stagger and used your guns and your choice to be Saryn was nigh useless. But it worked in the range it worked.

 

Now, her direct damage is a joke in terms of damage per second (once you include setup time) and damage per energy. Worse, she's squishier and no longer opening with her crowd control ability (miasma is third in the combo), meaning in addition to being squishier she takes more damage along the way. Worse worse, it's much harder to fit rage and regen molt because you want more of everything than old Saryn.

 

Saryn's new role in the game is damage multiplication. By applying map wide viral procs with spores, she can boost the team's damage by 100%. And that's it. That's really it. That's the only thing she does that will ever make you care that you have a Saryn on your team. Nothing else you do as Saryn will ever matter to anyone else on your team, because everything else you do is complete trash. Buuut... Nova exists, and molecular prime is miles better. Honestly even a 185% power str roar Rhino is a solid competitor - on a frame with overall better CC. Their trick requires practically zero set-up time, lasts longer, and in Nova's case comes with a bonus slow. Rhino can panic stomp for a much larger range than Saryn can panic miasma, so if you absolutely need to buy yourself some breathing room with CC - Rhino > Saryn.

Edited November 14, 2015 by DSMatticus

[Frosty_2.0]

People keep mentioning making Toxic Lash a toggle without realizing the ramifications of doing so. The only (global) mechanics currently in the game that allow you to regenerate energy while a toggle ability is active are energy orbs and the Rift Plane. This would mean that while Toxic Lash is toggled on, Saryn would be unable to regenerate energy using Energy Siphon, Energy Vampire, and pizzas.

 

Making Toxic Lash a toggle will make Saryn's already inefficient energy usage even worse even if she can still regenerate energy by popping Spores.

[...]

I believe Fleeting Expertise is a factor too - As any toggled power gets a net 0% effect from Fleeting Expertise.

As Toxic Lash is, FE gives an option of trading duration to cast more often (as usual).

As a toggled power, FE truly does nothing; you score a big fat bagel, if you will ;)

[RealPandemonium]

cynical farming feedback

I hope they remove training wheels and factory farming aids from all frames eventually.  Choosing your frame solely on how exploitable it is has killed the spirit of the game.  

 

 

People keep mentioning making Toxic Lash a toggle without realizing the ramifications of doing so. The only (global) mechanics currently in the game that allow you to regenerate energy while a toggle ability is active are energy orbs and the Rift Plane. This would mean that while Toxic Lash is toggled on, Saryn would be unable to regenerate energy using Energy Siphon, Energy Vampire, and pizzas.

 

Making Toxic Lash a toggle will make Saryn's already inefficient energy usage even worse even if she can still regenerate energy by popping Spores.

Even outside of those issues, Toxic Lash is already quite efficient.  50 energy for 30 seconds is still more efficient than 25 + 1.5/sec would be, for example, and that's cheaper than any toggle we've seen thus far.  Adding duration also makes it even more efficient, whereas it would not for a toggle.  People just ask for toggles because they don't know what they're talking about.  

Edited November 14, 2015 by RealPandemonium

[taiiat]

i dunno, seems alright to me, some of my usual suspects wanted to play Ceres Interception (keyword was play, yeah, we're weird, we actually played the Mission, we didn't AFK in it), and 16 Rounds in, our Squad that consisted of mostly Saryns seemed to be just fine.

 

or the classic Survivals that i'm sure my usual suspects are not alone in playing without issues.

 

 

but i digress. those which have no feedback to give and no experience to base it on will go quiet in a couple weeks time, and then actual feedback should be all that's left.

 

As any toggled power gets a net 0% effect from Fleeting Expertise.

false - this is only the case if you're only putting one Mod on your Warframe.

obviously nobody does this.

alone, Fleeting Expertise doesn't do very much. but good thing there's 8 Mods Slots!

once you add other Mods in, Fleeting Expertise is still a net gain.

Edited November 14, 2015 by Haldos
Removed hidden post.

[Haldos]

Cleaned up some posts.

 

Please be sure your post is meeting the points for constructive feedback:

1. Focus discussion on the main topic: Saryns rework and her abilities.

2. Use details, examples and personal experiences in your feedback, as well as your counter arguments.

3. Leave all name calling, insults and antagonism at the door, regardless of who it may be targeting. It is not required or welcomed and does not fall under constructive feedback.

 

Much appreciated.

[DSMatticus]

I believe Fleeting Expertise is a factor too - As any toggled power gets a net 0% effect from Fleeting Expertise.

As Toxic Lash is, FE gives an option of trading duration to cast more often (as usual).

As a toggled power, FE truly does nothing; you score a big fat bagel, if you will ;)

That's not quite how it works. Fleeting expertise is a net 0% effect if and only if you equip no other duration or efficiency mods.

 

Consider R5 fleeting expertise + R5 streamline. That will reduce your duration to 40%, but increase your efficiency to 190% (the arsenal will tell you it's only 175%, but the arsenal is lying - for toggles the cap is applied only to the final result, not to efficiency). .1 energy cost / .4 duration = .25, or 25% - the minimum cost possible. Then you can use continuity to pay for transient fortitude. Or you can use continuity and drop down to a R4 fleeting for 80% duration instead of 40% (say, because you care about duration on your other powers. That's .2 energy cost / .8 duration = still .25.

 

 

"cynical farming feedback"

 

 

If you aren't going to read people's posts, don't respond to them. It's a simple concept, but it will make you 100% less of a forum troll.

 

I said nothing about whether or not speedfarming is a valid way to play the game. Whether or not you want to try and maximize your enjoyment of the grind or minimize your grindtime is a personal choice for you to make and I'm not going to judge you either way. Personally I just pub draco with whatever random frame I feel like playing, survival sewer camps make me want to kill myself so I always just run around in frames I find fun, I speedrun non-endless missions because there isn't a single difficult non-endless mission in the entire game, and defense bores me out of my mind so I usually just ability spam it to get what I'm looking for and move on to the things I actually enjoy. Which is exactly what 99% of the "farmers" you're whining about do. They're trying to get something they don't enjoy out of the way so they can do the things they do enjoy.

 

But nowhere in my post did I even say anything like "we need farming frames." What I actually said was that Saryn previously had no role in late endless content but had a role as a speedfarm frame, and now they've taken away her role as a speedfarm frame but still not given her any unique or competitive way to contribute to late endless content, leaving her as a bottom-tier frame. My actual complaint was specifically that she didn't have anything to offer to 40+ minute/wave runs that made her worth taking along over other frames. That's not speedfarming, if you can't tell, because by that point ability damage is total trash.

Edited November 14, 2015 by DSMatticus

[RealPandemonium]

But nowhere in my post did I even say anything like "we need farming frames." What I actually said was that Saryn previously had no role in late endless content but had a role as a speedfarm frame, and now they've taken away her role as a speedfarm frame but still not given her any unique or competitive way to contribute to late endless content, leaving her as a bottom-tier frame. My actual complaint was specifically that she didn't have anything to offer to 40+ minute/wave runs that made her worth taking along over other frames. That's not speedfarming, if you can't tell, because by that point ability damage is total trash.

Late endless content is essentially a minigame that has no bearing on whether a frame's design is good or not.  Implying that a frame is trash tier because its design doesn't break gameplay is toxic feedback that implies that DE should make all frames game-breaking in order to be considered relevant.  The only real argument you can make for putting a premium on exploitable mechanics is because they allow players to milk keys by staying in endless missions indefinitely and allow the farming process to proceed in a streamlined, safe manner.   We need to get rid of the training wheels and farming tools in order for gameplay to matter in a reward-driven "endgame."