Deluxe Skins And Gender Skins

[Rhodan]

I agree. I'm talking about us more or less needing a better reason for there NOT to be this option since DE's initial sentiment against it - "would rather use designs to make brand new Warframes" - has been completely dashed by the Deluxe skins.

These deluxe skins are an entirely different look for existing frames, something refreshing for people who like the frames or even didn't like the original looks. Making a skin that turns a frame into the opposite gender would be a lot less interesting to a lot of people because cosmetically, you'd barely change a thing aside from their physical build. Same abilities, same color scheme, same colors. It would not fit the lore, it would take time and resources that would indeed much better be spent elsewhere, and it would probably mess up some of the frames' designated animation sets. The current most important frame (re)designs are Primes, Umbras, and Premium skins, and only 11 of the current 28 (including Wukong, Nezha and the Archer frame) designed frames have been Primed so far. One Umbra has been shown. Three Premium skins have been shown and at least three (Trinity, Loki, Banshee) are in the works. So let's cut down on the hunger for skins and let DE finish those line-ups first.

 

I respect the fact that this is something you might very well want, like many other people have posted about before you, but if DE decided years ago to not waste time on creating two gendered designs for each frame, then I can almost guarantee you they won't decide to do it now or anytime soon either. 

[Morec0]

I think the real issue is hitboxes and animations. Even these flashy new skins are essentially just retextures of the normal frame. The skeleton is the same, the hitbox is the same, the mesh is almost the same in terms of the overall shape of the frame, and the hitbox is the same. Changing the gender of a frame would likely require a new skeleton, new mocap and animations, a new mesh, and a new hitbox. Realistically, just adding breasts to a warframe like Rhino isn't a very convincing solution (inb4 "le drag queen Rhino"). Rhino still has a very masculine build and giant @(*()$ Batman Forever codpiece. If they wanted it to be a bit more convincing they would need to change Rhino's build a bit, maybe drop the codpiece, and that would require a new hitbox and animations and all manner of other resource and time-intensive things. Not to mention, everyone would use female Rhino because the slightly smaller hitbox would be advantageous.

 

And that's a good point, but I wouldn't know enough about player hitboxes and enemy aiming in this game to really be able to say one way or another how much that would actually affect it - a 2-3% difference in hitbox size doesn't seem all that relevant to me, SLIGHTLY game-changing, for sure, but... all in all kinda moot.

 

But I'm not a min-maxxer either, so I suppose I don't have a feel for those sort of attitudes.

[(PSN)KestralSylver]

-snip-

Well, as you mentioned originally, maybe we'll find out during the second dream quest why their decision makes sense.

[LilLemay]

@Morec0

 

I don't think hitboxes are a problem in terms of getting hit, I think it's more of a problem of having to move them about and reposition them to fit logically inside the frame

[LavenderLaser]

And that's a good point, but I wouldn't know enough about player hitboxes and enemy aiming in this game to really be able to say one way or another how much that would actually affect it - a 2-3% difference in hitbox size doesn't seem all that relevant to me, SLIGHTLY game-changing, for sure, but... all in all kinda moot.

 

But I'm not a min-maxxer either, so I suppose I don't have a feel for those sort of attitudes.

Also remember that when they were sculpting the Valkyr skin, they used the normal Valkyr.obj as a base. Presumably that was done with the other premium skins as well. Gender swapping would likely require a full remodel, built from the ground up, which takes a lot longer.

[LilLemay]

Also remember that when they were sculpting the Valkyr skin, they used the normal Valkyr.obj as a base. Presumably that was done with the other premium skins as well. Gender swapping would likely require a full remodel, built from the ground up, which takes a lot longer.

This

[Morec0]

Well, as you mentioned originally, maybe we'll find out during the second dream quest why their decision makes sense.

 

Yet another reason as to why it can't get here soon enough.

 

 

These deluxe skins are an entirely different look for existing frames, something refreshing for people who like the frames or even didn't like the original looks. Making a skin that turns a frame into the opposite gender would be a lot less interesting to a lot of people because cosmetically, you'd barely change a thing aside from their physical build. Same abilities, same color scheme, same colors. It would not fit the lore, it would take time and resources that would indeed much better be spent elsewhere, and it would probably mess up some of the frames' designated animation sets. The current most important frame (re)designs are Primes, Umbras, and Premium skins, and only 11 of the current 28 (including Wukong, Nezha and the Archer frame) designed frames have been Primed so far. One Umbra has been shown. Three Premium skins have been shown and at least three (Trinity, Loki, Banshee) are in the works. So let's cut down on the hunger for skins and let DE finish those line-ups first.

 

I respect the fact that this is something you might very well want, like many other people have posted about before you, but if DE decided years ago to not waste time on creating two gendered designs for each frame, then I can almost guarantee you they won't decide to do it now or anytime soon either. 

 

That sort of feels like more an issue of personal taste - I mean, if it was OBJECTIVELY less-interesting or less-desirable I doubt there would be threads talking about it at all.

 

And it's not something I personally want, but there are people in the community that want it, and with Deluxe skins providing a different visual representation of the Warframe's that is as subjective as its gender I feel that their desires are fairly logical. If DE just says something as plain as "we don't want to because it's not our vision" and they ought to say that.

 

 

Also remember that when they were sculpting the Valkyr skin, they used the normal Valkyr.obj as a base. Presumably that was done with the other premium skins as well. Gender swapping would likely require a full remodel, built from the ground up, which takes a lot longer.

 

Hmm, VERY good point.

[LavenderLaser]

I think all in all, since the premium skins are basically tennogen with the exception of a few, DE doesn't have to devote very much time and resources to them (and even the ones that they are involved with, like the Proto Skins, essentially have all the art already done, or they're a simple retexture like Prisma Excal or the Immortal skins). DE is slow enough with giving us content. Would you want them to have to pull more resources away from development?

[Yrveth]

Well, then that's their justification and they should say that, instead of giving us an answer of "we don't want to spend resources when we could make new frames" and then make things that could very well just be new frames.

 

So basically, you just want them to be more honest? I think they are already very open but this may be a complicated issue. Recently I watched the very first devstream where the subject of opposite gender versions was also brought up. It seemed like it's a source of disagreement within the team, too. I may be wrong and it was a long time ago but it's worth considering that they may have a reason to be rather roundabout with their answers.

[Morec0]

So basically, you just want them to be more honest? I think they are already very open but this may be a complicated issue. Recently I watched the very first devstream where the subject of opposite gender versions was also brought up. It seemed like it's a source of disagreement within the team, too. I may be wrong and it was a long time ago but it's worth considering that they may have a reason to be rather roundabout with their answers.

 

No, "honest" isn't the right word. I agree, they're very open, I just think that if they're going to give a reason and then create something that seems to go against said-reason that they need to give a new reason that fits between the two reasons - and there are plenty.

 

It's less about "honesty" and more about "simply revising their stance to avoid confusion".

 

But, as Vaporean pointed out the sort of work needed to create a gender-different skin MIGHT be a bit more complex than a Deluxe from a modeling standpoint, so it may very well be their original stance isn't as undermined as I thought.

[LilLemay]

No, "honest" isn't the right word. I agree, they're very open, I just think that if they're going to give a reason and then create something that seems to go against said-reason that they need to give a new reason that fits between the two reasons - and there are plenty.

 

It's less about "honesty" and more about "simply revising their stance to avoid confusion".

 

But, as Vaporean pointed out the sort of work needed to create a gender-different skin MIGHT be a bit more complex than a Deluxe from a modeling standpoint, so it may very well be their original stance isn't as undermined as I thought.

That's my take on it, that they'd rather just give us new content and expand the universe a bit through more lore (which I know you'd be all over) for the same amount of work as making an alt gender skin

[SilentFears]

I got no problem playing my Trinity Prime nor my Rhino Prime regardless of their gender.

 

Also why is it nowdays everything is so centered on genders ? We dont have enoght stuff to argue about ?

[Orcot]

Have you considered the fact that these Deluxe skins cost as much plat as a Warframe?

 

Also, at this point in the game if DE did make alt-gender skins it would allow just lead to the same people who were just complaining to push for alt-Immortals and alt Deluxe and alt-Primes and even an argument about alt-Excal.P.  Hypothetical as it might be, DE has already chosen their stance on the topic and whether you feel it's a valid stance or not is irrelevant to the fact that it will not be worth the hassle compared to the ceaseless bickering to come if DE changes their mind.

[Datsher]

While I would like to see rule 63 skins (loki and rhino look awesome), I don't particularly need them and I think that it wouldn't fit the lore (even though it's just a jiggling mess)

[Cubewano]

I'm positive DE stated they'll do similar themed frames of the opposite gender BUT with different skill sets, which in my opinion it's better for us :)

and when have you ever seen them deliver on this? we have two sleath frames that are both male, two poison frames (with the coming archer frame) that are each female, if you view rhino as somewhat earthy based we have him and atlas, i have yet to see a single set of similar themed frames of alternate genders in this game since they said that so long ago. i think de has all but abandoned this line of thinking, to which I believe just making alt gender skins would make up for it quite easily. 

 

not saying they should plunge into it and force out something for all frames, it could be quite a random event, but i'd be so down for a skin that let me be blaze again on ember. 

[Morec0]

and when have you ever seen them deliver on this? we have two sleath frames that are both male, two poison frames (with the coming archer frame) that are each female, if you view rhino as somewhat earthy based we have him and atlas, i have yet to see a single set of similar themed frames of alternate genders in this game since they said that so long ago. i think de has all but abandoned this line of thinking, to which I believe just making alt gender skins would make up for it quite easily. 

 

not saying they should plunge into it and force out something for all frames, it could be quite a random event, but i'd be so down for a skin that let me be blaze again on ember. 

 

Loki-Mirage-Limbo?

 

Trickster-Trickster/Performer-Performer?

[arch111]

I see your point Morec0 and I agree that the argument of new models is no longer valid with the new skins.

A clearer stance would be nice.

[SilentMobius]

I think people are misunderstanding Morec0 I think he's simply using the premium skins as a wedge to try and leverage critical data out of DE.

Sure, the "Second Dream" will hopefully give us the in-game answers but here-and-now we could really do with DE saying "There are lore reasons we will not be doing Warframe gender-swaps" or "There are no lore reasons not to do gender swaps but we still won't for reason X"

Previously DE could hide behind "full mesh reworks are too expensive to make for the money we'd get" that is no longer the case.

[Morec0]

I think people are misunderstanding Morec0 I think he's simply using the premium skins as a wedge to try and leverage critical data out of DE.

Sure, the "Second Dream" will hopefully give us the in-game answers but here-and-now we could really do with DE saying "There are lore reasons we will not be doing Warframe gender-swaps" or "There are no lore reasons not to do gender swaps but we still won't for reason X"

Previously DE could hide behind "full mesh reworks are too expensive to make for the money we'd get" that is no longer the case.

 

That and a proper revised statement to provide the clarity needed with which to shut down the people who keep wanting gender-swapped Warframes that might try to use this angle to back up their arguments (which, as I've said before, currently aren't invalid).

[Cubewano]

Loki-Mirage-Limbo?

 

Trickster-Trickster/Performer-Performer?

loki's theme is that of of a trickster god and he is a stealth frame, mirage's theme is that is light manipulation and is a dps frame, limbo's theme is a void magician and plays a defensive role, where are they similar? outside very loose interpretations of their themes they have little in common. 

[Morec0]

loki's theme is that of of a trickster god and he is a stealth frame, mirage's theme is that is light manipulation and is a dps frame, limbo's theme is a void magician and plays a defensive role, where are they similar? outside very loose interpretations of their themes they have little in common. 

 

But poison-warlock Saryn and poison-archer Upcoming are the same enough to warrant note? And Rhino and Atlas too? AND Loki and Ash??

Edited November 5, 2015 by Morec0

[Hixlysss]

OP brings up a point...these deluxe skins are heavy changes to the warframe's appearance and yet they are just skins. Why can't we have alt gender versions as well?

 

I mean, if DE is willing to go through all the effort of making these fantastic deluxe skins which have such little details in them and are so vastly different from the original frame in appearance...why can't we have alt genders as well?

 

At this point unless they come up with a good reason as to why there are no male saryn's or female excal's beyond their desire to do a 'alter gender of the same theme', I don't see it ending well. Too often in the lore is the frame viewed as just a...suit, a tool, something used to harness and focus some cosmic energy, for each suit to only work for one person(I.E. There can only be one excal or even there can only be male excal's) seems kinda...silly.

 

I donno....it just seems odd that DE would put all this effort into deluxe skins, yet not even change their mind about making a male saryn skin seems...odd.

[(XBOX)EternalDrk Mako]

more frames...works for me 

[Lightsmith]

As for just skins I don't think if would be a big issue. But from DEs perspective the time to make a gender swap skin would equal these new skins. Yet I don't think there would be the same demand, I think less demand. Then if they do it once there will be people always wanting another.

I think DEs idea of similar frames, I.e. a male fire based frame, but with different abilities than ember is a good idea. But when that happens is unknown.

Edited November 5, 2015 by Lightsmith

[Rhekemi]

Morec0, this is familiar territory, so I will actually copy-paste a little to save time.

 

A while back there was a Unisex Warframe Selection thread.

 

This was the bulk of my initial argument, and it's still relevant now to an extent:

 

It's too much work and it isn't a priority. (I think the latter is important--that it isn't a DE priority.) 

 

I don't think they think male or female players who identify with the gender they play (and therefore want to play as that gender only) are nonexistent, but they can't prioritize their concerns over broader development needs. 

 

DE is incredibly fast (as far as new content goes) in my book, and as a player, I'd like them to stay that way. 

 

For DE, I'm not sure what would prioritize male and female only players' needs over the broader game, but the best way they can address those needs (and in a way that doesn't grind overall development to a crawl or halt) is simply creating new Warframes of each gender with neglected skills for that gender. 

 

It's DE saying, Okay, what hasn't been done? Male tank-nuke hybrid frames? Female stealth frames? Male elemental glass cannons? Female dedicated tank? Male healer? 

 

It's DE having a new awesome design, theme and concept for a new 'frame and, if needed, then swapping it to create balance. 

 

That process is simpler, cleaner, and players get to have a brand new Warframe in whatever gender they always wanted--not some swapped Excalisis who does what Excalibro already did. Not some Novaman who does what Nova already does. It is a redundant waste of time from my point of view.

 

Being able to choose your gender is at the bedrock of many games, and I'm cool with those, but it isn't part of Warframe, and I'm cool with that too.

 

I understand everyone is different.

 

This was the bulk of my second argument (after more posts and debating were had) in the same thread. Still quite relevant:

 

This is why I believe it's more that it's not a DE (or community) priority. I also believe as vindslav does: it goes against the way DE's designed the game. Each frame is meant to represent an individual identity, skill set, and play-style. 

 

The Warframes are as they are meant to be, imo, and the solution is creating new Warframes of each gender to fill roles primarily occupied by the opposite gender. We need female tanks, female stealth frames, male nukes, male healers (sorry Oberon) and they need to be new, badass frames, not copies. If they can come up with new, genderless Warframes that would also be interesting.

 

I'd be disappointed to be proven wrong (by DE later creating alternate gender skins for existing Warframes), because I think it dilutes the original concepts, the overall vision of the game.

 

Truth is, despite what I think (I'm against it) there is no reason it can't happen, unless DE doesn't want it to happen.

 

If the community wants it enough, I believe they might agree to it on some level. 

 

Guess it is up to the community to show it wants it enough. I believe we'd have to prepare for wars over changing beloved male/female frames to alternate genders initially.

 

 

Now, my feelings having read your thread, Morec0, and seen the images: The gender-swapped skins are pretty cool works of art. They're seamless and actually change the character genders without losing what makes the characters unique. Great job by the artist.

 

However, fan skins still have to actually be modeled and implemented in the game. That requires work, and time. Just because the Rhino Temple Guardian skin looks so badass, and resembles the concept artwork so wonderfully, doesn't mean gender-swapped skins can be just as easily implemented. For that matter, we've seen in more devstream than one that they had to set aside time to do the work--who's to say it was easy or effortless getting the Rhino skin to look right?

 

It took time away from something, somewhere, or it had to be given a dedicated slot on the slate of work. It is going alongside a bit of a Rhino rework (the same way Saryn's new skin went alongside her current rework). The time it takes to add the deluxe skins are justified by the minor reworks. (Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't Valkyr get a small rework with her last limited edition skin?)

 

In conclusion, yes. It is possible to create gender-swapped skins. But we cannot exactly say that it is easy, or that it won't require a lot of work based simply on the artwork in the first post, or the deluxe skins. Creating a gender-swap skin that not only looks good, but is functional is only part of the issue. DE still has to dedicate time to address each and every 'frame in the gender-swap light, and think about how to rework existing problems players have with those 'frames in order to keep an efficient workflow at DE.

 

If they simply carve out a chunk of time just to address gender-swap skins, that's not efficient, and could conceivably create scheduling conflicts with other updates, reworks, new features, warframes, weapons, etc.

 

Can it be done? Yes. But I do not see how the logic that it is "too much work" changes, to be honest. It still looks like a lot of work to me, and that time could be spent on new things.

 

The key here, as I re-posted above, will be whether gender-swapped skins, or unisex skins, are a priority for DE and the community. If the community makes it a priority, then DE will likely have no choice but to address it. If that's what the community wants DE to spend time on, they can make their voice heard.

Edited November 5, 2015 by Rhekemi