Is The Grind In Warframe Killing The Game?

[Teodhoro]

I like grinding games

[TheBrightKing]

Yet I don't have to replay the same level over and over till I unlock the next part or some weapon, each level completed is progress.

I can't say the same for Warframe, granted Warframe is a free online game so the comparison is unfair,

but I would still love a feel of progress even when I get nothing good from a 20 minute survival.

(Which the focus system is helping that, but something is missing...)

 

yes is progress, and when you finsh that progress, what, multiplayer... thats massive grind, the same maps over and over, the same enmies, grinding only to have the best score, its grind to see who grinds faster and better, but is fun for most of us, why warframe not if its the same with more enemies (ok it depends on the mission but it usually is with more enemies in wf)

[(PSN)thinkfasthippie2]

You merely adopted the grind, I was born in it. -Warframe

[NN13]

Is it killing the game? Not sure. None of us have any statistics to support any theory.

 

Is it getting too much? Yes, definitely.

 

If anyone is defending DE saying that Nezha or Wukong was perfectly fine, I am not sure what to say.

 

I felt happy when Mirage came out. Mirage included a time-wall. That meant, that whenever you finished the quest, you will get Mirage for sure.

I thought that finally DE is doing something about RNG.

 

And then came others. Then, Wukong - Where you had to play the game according to the server timings.

And then, DE just went overboard - Nezha - Sortie only.

 

Do you people see the trend?

 

First was pure RNG-wall.

All was luck based. If you were lucky, you would get something in the first try. If you are unlucky,like me, you would need to do 178 T3 Captures to get Ember Prime Systems(My worst grind yet).

 

Then came Time-wall

For a very brief moment, DE locked Mirage behind a time-wall. This system was not luck based and I like it a lot. After a certain amount of time, you get Mirage. IMO, it was the best.

 

And now, we have RNG+Time wall. And it has become too much.

Lets take the lastest example - Nezha. You get one chance out of 15+ random rewards , once in every 24-hour.

At least when there was pure RNG, people could try their best and let luck decide the reward.

Now, DE and luck decides the rewards.

I am not sure what to say to those who defend the Nezha system, except to say that you people are being white-knights to DE.

 

Moreover, while DE claims that rewards have equal chance in sortie, millions of players wanting to buy Nezha systems clearly shows that the drop chance for some items are skewed.

[Hypernaut1]

Is it killing the game? Not sure. None of us have any statistics to support any theory.

 

Is it getting too much? Yes, definitely.

 

If anyone is defending DE saying that Nezha or Wukong was perfectly fine, I am not sure what to say.

 

I felt happy when Mirage came out. Mirage included a time-wall. That meant, that whenever you finished the quest, you will get Mirage for sure.

I thought that finally DE is doing something about RNG.

 

And then came others. Then, Wukong - Where you had to play the game according to the server timings.

And then, DE just went overboard - Nezha - Sortie only.

 

Do you people see the trend?

 

First was pure RNG-wall.

All was luck based. If you were lucky, you would get something in the first try. If you are unlucky,like me, you would need to do 178 T3 Captures to get Ember Prime Systems(My worst grind yet).

 

Then came Time-wall

For a very brief moment, DE locked Mirage behind a time-wall. This system was not luck based and I like it a lot. After a certain amount of time, you get Mirage. IMO, it was the best.

 

And now, we have RNG+Time wall. And it has become too much.

Lets take the lastest example - Nezha. You get one chance out of 15+ random rewards , once in every 24-hour.

At least when there was pure RNG, people could try their best and let luck decide the reward.

Now, DE and luck decides the rewards.

I am not sure what to say to those who defend the Nezha system, except to say that you people are being white-knights to DE.

 

Moreover, while DE claims that rewards have equal chance in sortie, millions of players wanting to buy Nezha systems clearly shows that the drop chance for some items are skewed.

178?

How do people have such a specific count of their tries?

[NN13]

178?

How do people have such a specific count of their tries?

Well, I heard that Ember Prime Systems was hard to get. And I started counting just for fun. And then, I was determined to see after how many runs do I get it and I literally had a txt file open behind Warframe.

That was one time tbh. Never really did it again, but I do feel like I never had to run same missions that much, after that incident.

[GhostLacuna]

178?

How do people have such a specific count of their tries?

 

excel spreadsheets, note taking programs or just plain old notes. 

 

For other games like diablo 2 i had to start to use excel spreadsheets at around 200+ runs. at +10000 runs they where definitely needed

 

But such is the case when you could farm gear for a month and see who scored the rarest find :)

[KorbanGado]

The thing with Warframe is that I expect the RNG, because it has been here ever since I started playing some 2 years ago. Yes, I don't like RNG, but it would be just as silly as me going into a game like Diablo and Borderlands and complaining that the loot is all RNG. Although it's logical to know "Hey, this game is heavily based on RNG" - a point I've always made when getting new friends into the game - it doesn't necessarily mean that anyone has to like it because you can't be forced to like RNG. Grind is going to come hand-in-hand with RNG rewards, as anyone who doesn't get lucky will end up having to try, try, try, try, try again ad nauseam to get it.

On the one hand, the grind really only comes out when it's time to go after a very specific item - such as that one prime part you need to finish that gun, or that one mod you want to stance-up your sword. On the other hand, when that grind hits it hits hard. For a new player just running the gamut, getting stuff and clearing planets, this grind isn't felt as bad - you're just playing the game and having fun, getting stuff along the way. For a more veteran player who needs that carrot on a stick called "new item", the grind becomes the entirety of the game as they quest for the one thing they don't have.

 

Personally, I would prefer all the frames to get neat little story Quests to be gotten from, because I'd rather deal with a wait between parts than the possibility of never getting a part - because if something has a 1% chance of being gotten, eventually you should get it, but that eventual may be outside the range of attempts a person is willing to attempt.

So does the Grind/RNG turn people off to the game? I'm sure it does. It also probably draws in just as many people who crave that RNG and easy repetition. Without concrete information from statistical tracking on a large-scale about number of persistent users vs the number of users lost, nobody can really make a definitive call of any subsistence outside of just voicing their own opinions on how they feel about the grind/rng.

[(PSN)federally]

For me, the grind isn't killing the game. The time invested for no return is hurting the game

I understand RNG and and I'm okay with not getting the thing I want every, or even most times.

However too often in this game the thing I wanted to get is replaced by something literally worthless.

[Hypernaut1]

Isnt Warframe successful? There's your answer.

[Eliakin]

In my opinion what is killing the game is every time DE leaves the hardest grind.

 

RNG made me lose a lot of time in the game and still doing me, but the new resource was the end.

 

I stopped playing when put Nitain Extract that the only way to get it is by alerts.

[Pendragon1951]

I'm not sure if the grind is killing the game, but my question is when is grinding in a game too much? There has to be a clear demarcation between fair grinding for something that is rare and just plain out of control grinding. How many times is fair to run the same mission for something, I think that needs to be established IMHO.

[(PSN)robertgk2017]

No if anything the grind is making the game come alive its great

[Rakosta_Kai]

Isnt Warframe successful? There's your answer.

...Not really.

 

It'll be months before the changes they've made will be visible to players.

 

 

For my part, The grind has turned me away from the game as skinner box logic doesn't move me.

 

I still think that Warframe is one of the best recent IP's in the business and love the game but I can't work up the energy to run missions on the scant hope that i'll find something worthwhile.

 

That said...

 

Steve talked about making this the "Year of Quality" and I feel like DE held up their end of the bargain this year, for the most part.

Warframe is vastly improved from previous years in every category, imo, aside from drop rates and risk/reward balance. Both of which, funnily enough, are vastly worse, imo now.

 

All in all , I'd say their success is a mixed bag right now.

 

They have a lot more players, but it remains to be seen if they have a lot more paying players and, likewise, remains to be seen how many of those players they'll retain and over what period.

 

Relying on Skinner Box mentalities and Gambler's Logic doesn't even work for Casinos nowadays. 

 

My personal opinion is that DE still has time to get the mix right but that time is dwindling.

2016 is going to see the launch of a number of sci fi games of all stripes offering various mixes of risk vs reward balance.

 

Warframe's "success" is predicated on the aspect that it's comparatively unique in the market (sci fi shooter /mmo hybrid)  and it won't be this time next year. 

[GnosticCat]

I'm not sure if the grind is killing the game, but my question is when is grinding in a game too much? There has to be a clear demarcation between fair grinding for something that is rare and just plain out of control grinding. How many times is fair to run the same mission for something, I think that needs to be established IMHO.

Don't you think that "fair grinding" depends of person so how do you establish something like that?

[Hypernaut1]

...Not really.

 

It'll be months before the changes they've made will be visible to players.

 

 

For my part, The grind has turned me away from the game as skinner box logic doesn't move me.

 

I still think that Warframe is one of the best recent IP's in the business and love the game but I can't work up the energy to run missions on the scant hope that i'll find something worthwhile.

 

That said...

 

Steve talked about making this the "Year of Quality" and I feel like DE held up their end of the bargain this year, for the most part.

Warframe is vastly improved from previous years in every category, imo, aside from drop rates and risk/reward balance. Both of which, funnily enough, are vastly worse, imo now.

 

All in all , I'd say their success is a mixed bag right now.

 

They have a lot more players, but it remains to be seen if they have a lot more paying players and, likewise, remains to be seen how many of those players they'll retain and over what period.

 

Relying on Skinner Box mentalities and Gambler's Logic doesn't even work for Casinos nowadays. 

 

My personal opinion is that DE still has time to get the mix right but that time is dwindling.

2016 is going to see the launch of a number of sci fi games of all stripes offering various mixes of risk vs reward balance.

 

Warframe's "success" is predicated on the aspect that it's comparatively unique in the market (sci fi shooter /mmo hybrid)  and it won't be this time next year.

But it was ALWAYS grindy...even more so than now. It wad ALWAYS a "skinners box" game. There is far more to do now than there was a year ago.

DE just bought a mo-cap studio. I think its fair to say that they're doing fine financially too.

[Rakosta_Kai]

Don't you think that "fair grinding" depends of person so how do you establish something like that?

 

"Fair grinding" would actually be an average median.

Asking for transparency in that category is always fair, imo.

 

Funnily enough, warframe used to offer a degree of that transparancy... Now it doesn't.

[KorbanGado]

"Fair grinding" would actually be an average median.

Asking for transparency in that category is always fair, imo.

 

Funnily enough, warframe used to offer a degree of that transparancy... Now it doesn't.

 

The only thing missing from that transparency for the RNG sides of things is the weighting of most objects. Thanks to the codex, we can even see (foe-wise) the general "rarity" and selection of mods on a per enemy basis. Granted, It would certainly be nice if there was no weighting - so if there was 3 rare items, then each would have that 33.3% chance to drop on a rare result. It would also sort of be nice if there was somewhere you could go in-game to see what the reward charts were for specific missions (spy vaults, void runs, survival rewards, etc) as opposed to needing to go to the wiki.

Grinding bit see next part.

I'm not sure if the grind is killing the game, but my question is when is grinding in a game too much? There has to be a clear demarcation between fair grinding for something that is rare and just plain out of control grinding. How many times is fair to run the same mission for something, I think that needs to be established IMHO.

How much is too much depending on the person. The problem with the fair being the "average" is that it's still "unfair" to someone. Ideally, as long as it's possible to get, than it's "fair" - although that doesn't mean we necessarily have to like it.

It's for that reason that it would be nice to see the larger items (such as warframe) have a system that's less based on point-of-reward style earnings (kill guy, maybe get this!) and more on the visible-progress earnings (such as the Dojo research, where you can see how much resources you have and can always feel like you are at least somewhat working towards a specific goal and kind of in charge). I can understand it not being so for things like Primes - as they are supposed to be "earned" or whatnot - and mods so that trade can still have a purpose and the likes, but for the warframes it would help give that purpose that some players may be missing because of "I just kill this one dumb dude until he drops the single thing I wanted for the last X runs" and allow for less of a "grind" feel by allowing players to obtain them through different means - such as doing whatever mission types they want. Of course, that still means you are potentially just grinding out the resources - but I've always found that a grind that makes you feel like your getting somewhere is much more bearable than one in which it's pure luck.

The other nice part about that is it would help add to that transparency Padre mentioned - you know exactly how much of what material you would need, it's just a matter of running out there to get it. You know where the materials drop even (at least for base materials). You can farm them grind-style, or you can just gather them as you play and still be getting something done.

You know, just an idea I'd thought I'd throw out there.

[(XBOX)EternalDrk Mako]

whine whine whine ...

 

[Rakosta_Kai]

But it was ALWAYS grindy...even more so than now. It wad ALWAYS a "skinners box" game. There is far more to do now than there was a year ago.

DE just bought a mo-cap studio. I think its fair to say that they're doing fine financially too.

 

...No one is asserting that the game isn't/wasn't grindy. F2P games are grindy for free players sakes.

That said, the game has 100x more narrative than it did a year ago (completely immersion breaking for me but any story beats no story)

 

The question deals with whether the game has become too grindy.

The grind has gone up over the last 2 years dramatically.

 

And it's tacitly impossible to say otherwise, tbh.

 

Every year items get added to drop tables without a commensurate increase to mob diversity. When warframe ability mods were removed so too were drop rates reduced.

 

DE upgrading their existing mo-cap capability doesn't say they are successful... It merely suggests they have more resources.

 

Awesome? Yes, definitely.

Sign of being successful? Remains to be seen.

 

Year -In-Reviews and financials will tell us how "successful" Warframe was this year of course.

 

But the real "tell" will be how it stacks up to relevant competition.

...Something it doesn't have right now (imo) but will this time next year.

[MadHatHacker]

Obviously not. Look at the size of the playerbase and how popular the game is in general. This game is far from dead or dying, and if anyone thinks this is what a grind looks like, y'all go play Grand Fantasia or something until you know better.

[(PSN)whiskey_14]

the grind is the game, you just have many options on how you'd like to go about it.

[Pendragon1951]

Don't you think that "fair grinding" depends of person so how do you establish something like that?

Actually no, I think it has to be established when the game is play tested by the developers and then adjusted because they are as much gamers as we are. A perfect example of that is Rebecca and Megan. At some point even they have stop and say "this is too much grinding for this particular thing".

[-Pearl-]

Edit: Veteran complaining.

Yes. It's wrecking the game and it's just not getting better.

Edited December 22, 2015 by -Daud-

[(XBOX)Shodian]

I've said this before and it's been said on the devstreams, in order to keep Warframe free to play DE has to do certain things to make sure it stays free. I love this game and want them to continue to expand and develop it. I understand the frustration but try to spread out what you're trying to get, if it's not working out then go for something else for a while. Don't burn yourself out fellow Tenno.