[Discussion] Do loot base skills cause toxicity?

[Vali]

This was actually a very interesting topic in the Devstream. I do own most frames with loot based skills and have used them for such purposes, but do these skills really cause toxicity among the community?

In my opinion, most resource farms and specified squads should already expect the requirements and skill specialization to get resources efficiently, so I don't think much toxicity will emerge from something people should be aware of. I see that it should be considered the same in the sense that a Frost is used as an effective defense the same way a Nekros is used for efficient resource/mod farming.

From personal experience, I haven't had any encounters with toxic players but I still wonder what are the community's thoughts on this.

 

Here's a poll on this:

http://strawpoll.me/7116974

Edited March 18, 2016 by Agentawesome
Screwed up title. Added poll.

[RagingGrizzly]

I haven't seen any.

That's probably why I don't go pub much :D

[MopUpCrewman]

Oh, boy.

This topic is going to get bad real quick if people start discussing it

Be sure to grab some popcorn, people.

 

Edit: Or maybe we'll have one of those rare, civilized, mature discussions?

Edited March 18, 2016 by Senpai-Pie

[BroQui]

No encounters of toxicity here, either, or ever experienced it in game. If you are on a farming team you know what is expected, like you said. 

Even if I am in a different mission type and see someone using Hydroid or Nekros all is good. 

Never seen or experienced it. 

[Misgenesis]

Maybe not, but i do think they affect how people want to build their loadouts.

Another thing is they seem to use them as excuses for having abysmal droprates which is just ehhh...

[Syln]

Well i go pub and never had any issue with my nekros and if i ever come across some idiots i'll gladly let him spit all is bs, and then sarcasticly dismiss him, most of the time "toxic" random give you enough material to do that ^

[Giantconch]

I havent seen any toxicity as a result of running Nekros or Hydroid, and since I barely run Ivara I couldnt say on that matter.

[DiabolusUrsus]

I don't have any clear memories of toxicity, but then I don't typically do public matches. I have no doubt that the toxicity exists, though. If someone in recruiting chat is looking for a Nekros, they're not looking for someone to not sit around and spam 3 for extra loot.

At the same time, I understand where DE is coming from. It's not unreasonable to expect the community to grow up and play with each other maturely. Unrealistic, maybe, but not unreasonable. 

My biggest problem is when abilities that provide extra loot are really only useful for that purpose. If you've got Equilibrium and Despoil on your Nekros, the synergy with Desecrate works very well. It doesn't feel like fishing for loot so much as staying alive, fueling your other abilities, and supporting your teammates. In any other Nekros build, though, Desecrate doesn't have much of an excuse to exist outside of extra loot. It's not reliable for healing, it doesn't confer any special bonuses or buffs, has absolutely no effect on the rest of his kit, and simply feels out of place. 

I don't have as much of a problem with Pilfering Swarm or Ore Gaze, because the abilities themselves do something different and the extra loot is just an added bonus. I think Desecrate at least deserves an update so that extra loot isn't the sole focus of the ability with the exception of one build.

[(XBOX)TheMadCash]

No but I do believe when Rebecca said something of sorts like "Like when you see a Nekros, you automatically assume that hes built for Desecrate otherwise theres no point to playing him." I just think its time her him to get reworked but he so he can be valuable to the team when not in Survival & Loot runs.  

Edited March 18, 2016 by (XB1)Cash201293

[IrisDragoon]

it's not loot based skills cause toxicity it's more like "why the hell aren't you using this build!?" toxicity.

[SquireAngel]

I don't think so. I think Scott was right on the money. We had it with greedy pull, we had it with Saryn's original Miasma, we had it with Mesa's original Peacemakers, we have it with Nekros, we have it with Ivara, we have it with Hydroid, we have it with EV trin, we have it with RJ Excal, we have it with Speed Nova, we have it with Ash's Bladestorm, we have it with Ember's World on Fire. I could go on and on. People will demand other people to play a specific frame with a specific build to tailor to THEIR playstyle. It's not about the skill, it's about the player. Toxic players will be toxic, and loot just happens to be one of the more major factors in WF, meaning that many salty players are attracted to the topic. Take away all the loot skills, and they'll find something else to be salty over.

[LABAL]

Yeah, I see a fine example of toxicity right now, before my very eyes.

[Hammahness808]

5 minutes ago, Misgenesis said:

Maybe not, but i do think they affect how people want to build their loadouts.

Another thing is they seem to use them as excuses for having abysmal droprates which is just ehhh...

It's possible the droprates are affected by loot based skills but we don't know this as a fact.

My take on it, it's possible and that's the only thing that actually does concern me. As far as player toxicity goes, that can go for any commonly expected build (EV, Bless, Blind Mirage) The players that take issue with it should just be ignored, pretty simple. I've never really experienced it myself with Nekros or Hydroid other than getting flustered that pub players don't want to work with me to get additional loot.

[crazyN00b]

I wouldn't say that toxicity that's talked about is becouse of the looting abilities. It's more of a problem with META players. They will scream at you for not using looting abilities, but will also do the same if you have trinity and don't spam EV, or have ash and don't spam bladestorm, or have mirage and don't spam prism, etc.

[Phatose]

Drop rates have been like they are now since long before loot skills existed.  Remember way back when, when any enemy could theoretically drop any mod?  Good luck getting the one you want then.  Or when bosses dropped warframe parts as orbs, sometimes?  All that predates Desecrate, the earliest loot power, by a good bit.  It's rather hard for me to buy the idea that drop rates are bad because of loot skills when drop rates were bad long before loot skills existed.

 

As for toxicity, meh.  I've encountered players annoyed I wasn't using Shadows of the Dead because I was specced for desecrate.  It's just typical "Play how I want you to" stuff.

[Revel72]

In some cases.

There do are people who are not this kind. Although those are mostly people who have played Borderlands games. (Not the tell tale ones)

[(PSN)jFresh215]

In a game that's predicated on obtaining a significant amount of resources in order to build weapons/frames/companions in order to obtain ranks(mastery) that in turn offer you more items to build, I say that loot abilities are a positive addition. We've all seen that random nekros show up in a mission doing nothing but desecrating the waste. I see this as a welcome site; well at least I did up until loot didn't have the same significance. The word toxic has the connotation that this hurts the game; when in fact it's the exact opposite. The only people that I can see having a real problem are solo players and those farming purists. I've never been negatively effected by any sort of loot ability. 

[KenseiOmega]

2 minutes ago, crazyN00b said:

I wouldn't say that toxicity that's talked about is becouse of the looting abilities. It's more of a problem with META players. They will scream at you for not using looting abilities, but will also do the same if you have trinity and don't spam EV, or have ash and don't spam bladestorm, or have mirage and don't spam prism, etc.

Pretty much this ^ but that said even this is a rarity in my experience. In a pre made group it's one thing but most of us understand that randoms are a free-for-all.

 

[Lijka]

The problem with loot frames is not "toxicity" but the fact that these frames are being categorised as loot only frames way too oftten.

In my oppinion it is not about loot tables, not in case of those frames, but about Nekros/Hydro not being taken seriously. Like with Oberon, there are very few dedicated players that simply love the frame and main it for the fun of it rather than using it as a looter.

Yes, looting skills have place in Warframe but in this case they simply influence people's view of two really fun frames.

[MrJxt]

12 minutes ago, SquireAngel said:

I don't think so. I think Scott was right on the money. We had it with greedy pull, we had it with Saryn's original Miasma, we had it with Mesa's original Peacemakers, we have it with Nekros, we have it with Ivara, we have it with Hydroid, we have it with EV trin, we have it with RJ Excal, we have it with Speed Nova, we have it with Ash's Bladestorm, we have it with Ember's World on Fire. I could go on and on. People will demand other people to play a specific frame with a specific build to tailor to THEIR playstyle. It's not about the skill, it's about the player. Toxic players will be toxic, and loot just happens to be one of the more major factors in WF, meaning that many salty players are attracted to the topic. Take away all the loot skills, and they'll find something else to be salty over.

Pretty much this. There will always be toxic players regardless of xyz.

[Ryouhi]

I've seen that happen... what? once?
Where someone was flamed for not taking a desecrate build on nekros.

 

I don't think those farming skills create toxicity, but rather create VERY boring gameplay.
1) Play defense
2a) Play Hydroid
3a) Do nothing but spam Pilfering Swarm

2b) Play Nekros
3b) Do nothing but press 3 for 40 minutes
4) get loot (and probably carpal tunnel)

 

I'd rather loot skills would get scrapped and certain droprates were increased across the board to compensate so we wouldnt need these skills in the first place
Or as Scott shortly mentioned - at leats make desecrate an aura so you don't just stand around desecrating all game

 

 

[Machayna]

9 minutes ago, McDuffMan said:

it's not loot based skills cause toxicity it's more like "why the hell aren't you using this build!?" toxicity.

Agreed.  I was running a link build trin in a pub and one of my teammates kept saying I was playing her wrong because I wasn't built for EV.  Kept saying we were going to fail the mission as the result of my lack of EV build.  

I don't think the skill causes toxicity.  

[-JT-_-R3W1ND]

I can't see a point.

How it can be? Somebody ask for loot in random party? Sounds pretty weird.

For survival maybe. But not random i think. If somebody pick a group he can ask anything, and i guess it better know before "+ inv" nobody will ask Hydro, or Necro into patry exept for looting.

But this is now loot-skills problem at all. No skills=no LF Necro messages, that is all.

So eah, i have no idea what are we talking about.

 

 

[Renathy]

The only issue I have ever experienced regarding this specific problem is when a player demands a loot-based Warframe although, as I see it at that moment, I deem it unnecessary whether they insist on it. When it's my squad and if I don't conform to their requests, they have two options: do as I say or leave. Simple as that. There's no other options. When I'm in someone else's squad, then I will gladly oblige or give my opinion on the matter. I don't feel as if there is any toxicity about it. It's just a personal preference and an utility.

[Hemmo67]

each time to have used nekros in pubs i have went in with shadow build and genuinly gotten very nice responses and not use desecrate at all

but bad apes exist .-.