The De-personalization of Warframes...

[AEP8FlyBoy]

1 hour ago, magusat999 said:

I was thinking about the recent plot changes - story, lore or whatever you want to call it - and I am not 100% clear on the "Lore" of Warframe in the first place. What I thought I was secure in was that each Warframe had a distinct history, a distinct set of attributes, a mark in certain parts of time and events. I thought each one was made to  address certain events in Warframe history. I thought Warframe had, most of all, individual "personalities" if you will, or at least the mystery inhabitants were each a distinct human (Tenno) with a unique personality.

But then the Second Dream comes out and dashes all that to the wall. The Warframes are just (no longer) inhabited by anyone (I guess Hayden as the first Tenno, who actually did "wear" a Warframe is just for us to forget?) Even thought even before the Operator was cognizant, or even before the point of the Warframe meeting the Operator - I could have sworn the villians and Lotus were speaking to the "Warframe" but I am now confused - the Operator was incoherent until reaching our ships - so who were they talking to??? When lotus says "Tenno" - who was she talking to? Why would she converse with a hulking machine with no brain or spirit? Why ask, beg, plead, implore - as if she is talking to the Tenno - or more accurately, a human being, if the Warframe has no human being inside? Someone clarify this because I don't see the puzzle pieces fitting together here...

I had been for a while dreaming about doing some fan-fic - but that was based on thinking the Warframe each had a story to tell. But if they are just mindless machines I don't see too many story possibilities - at least not from that angle. A fan-fic would now have to center around chair bound kiddies locked in a basement controlling war based machinery. Not that it can't be done but I thought the Warframe as the subject would have led to more interesting paths - and varied. I don't know people... what do you think? maybe someone can clear this up, tie it all together so there are no holes?

Your statements and observations are indeed valid, and as a fellow Tenno (Warframe + Operator, Tenno is the name of the Operator, but a Warframe can be referred to as a Tenno while in Transference.) I can reiterate that fact.

Before the Second Dream and even still to this day, I visualize myself in the body of my Warframe; as I always have. I identified with it and it became my skin basically during my upbringing. 

There are things that aren't quite clear with the Warframe as it is... and we have no idea as to just what the Warframes are capable of, as you saw at the end of the SD, the Warframe moved on its own accord, to save its Operator (or so we think).

The fact that the allies or enemies of the Tenno speak to the Warframes as if they were the Tenno is merely just a means of communication, they had no idea and probably still don't know what the Tenno are... that they are indeed children, out of mind and body, controlling the Warframes subconsciously. Someone doesn't have to talk to a human or what they think as one, for one to hear it.

Up until now, and even in the aftermath of the Second Dream... I am still pleased. I feel as though the one I have imprinted on in the game (my Warframe) is still very much an individual entity. Just take the Acolytes for example... If you recall from Operation: Shadow Debt... Misery, the Shadow Nekros was speaking to us, and it went something like this.

"The Shadow is pure. Undreaming, untainted." says Misery, when he says "Undreaming... or Untainted... he is referring to the fact that they are in control of their forms, and not bonded to a Tenno any longer, this bond became severed and they in turn defiled the ways of the Tenno... This is probably how the Stalker was created. When he first discovered that he was only a child, and not the brutish and dark soul he yearned to be... it torn him apart. He severed the bond with his Operator... assimilated "his" body, and became the Stalker.

"I see you are still their servants." Mania said this, and it either meant the Tenno serving under the Orokin (since it was hinted that Alad V is in-fact Orokin in the Second Dream), or that the Warframes are still serving underneath the Tenno... I suppose it could be taken either way.

We can in fact conclude that whatever is possessing the Acolytes are either the souls or spirits of the Warframes themselves, or vengeful beings of the Old War, wanting nothing but to exact their revenge on the Tenno for destroying the Orokin.

That's the thing though, the Warframes are capable of housing a personality, whether it be one of the Tenno, or their own... and there is nothing saying whether or not that is the case. We can indeed deduce from the many hints thrown at us so far that DE is planning this out for the long run... and we may not know the literal truth for quite sometime.

One thing that is for sure... the Tenno cannot be what they are without their Warframes... and the Warframes would be nothing without their Operators. In the end, they are one and the same... two parts of a whole, two sides of the same coin.

Whatever comes next, I'm sure it will be quite the spectacle. That's all I've wanted to know though, before I knew what the Tenno were, I've always wondered just what makes the Warframes... Warframes. There just has to be more, but it is all speculative at this point so... I'll just stop ranting now... :)

Sorry for the wall of text. I've written about this hundreds of times by now... but it always intrigues me regardless to share my observations with fellow players. ;3

Edited April 5, 2016 by AEP8FlyBoy

[Campaigner]

What the warframe is made out of is still a mystery.

Why the warframe receives transmissions from the operator is part of that mystery.

If the Second Dream reveals don't mesh with your ideas then you have terrible lore detective skills. Anyone who actually payed attention to the game and didn't go off into lala fanfic dreamland after seeing 10% of the lore knows that it makes sense.

Edited April 5, 2016 by Campaigner

[BornWithTeeth]

1 hour ago, Naith said:

Probably in the minority here for that as there's a crowd with pitchforks who still complain about the concept DE went for, but I admire them sticking by it regardless. 

The thing is, that's pretty clearly not the case. The players who don't like the Operators have always been a vocal minority. Several polls back in December showed that.

[TrinityPrime]

Does Hayden even exist in the canonical Warframe universe?  Feels like he's more kin to Schrödinger's cat at this point.

I like to think of the Operators as more of a multi-verse car battery than a driver.

Edited April 5, 2016 by KnotOfMetal

[TARINunit9]

2 minutes ago, Campaigner said:

If the Second Dream reveals doesn't mesh with your ideas then you have terrible lore detective skills. Anyone who actually payed attention to the game and didn't go off into lala fanfic dreamland after seeing 10% of the lore knows that it makes sense.

Yes and no. Everything makes sense except Stalker (who was outright retcon'd) and Mirage. When Mirage was killed by the Senteints, it was permadeath with no chance to rebuild her until the present day. Under the current post-Second-Dream lore, this would never be a concern; Mirage's Zariman child was tucked away safely on the Moon, so a replacement Mirage should have been cooking in the foundry afterwards

Just now, KnotOfMetal said:

Does Hayden even exist in the canonical Warframe universe?  Feels like he's more kin to Schrödinger's cat at this point.

He used to exist. He's dead from old age thousands and thousands of years ago

[AEP8FlyBoy]

6 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

Yes and no. Everything makes sense except Stalker (who was outright retcon'd) and Mirage. When Mirage was killed by the Senteints, it was permadeath with no chance to rebuild her until the present day. Under the current post-Second-Dream lore, this would never be a concern; Mirage's Zariman child was tucked away safely on the Moon, so a replacement Mirage should have been cooking in the foundry afterwards

He used to exist. He's dead from old age thousands and thousands of years ago

Time and time again DE has said there is no correlation between the happenings of Dark Sector and Warframe... Warframe was merely the brainchild of Dark Sector, it received inspiration from it and nothing else.

As you heard during the climax of the Second Dream when the Lotus was speaking to us... she spoke of the Zariman 10 - 0 

10,0 = Tenno... and has nothing to do with Hayden. xD
If anyone else saw that, you are a smartie... and if not... well, that's fine too.

[TARINunit9]

2 minutes ago, AEP8FlyBoy said:

Time and time again DE has said there is no correlation between the happenings of Dark Sector and Warframe... Warframe was merely the brainchild of Dark Sector, it received inspiration from it and nothing else.

They've announced in devstream 52 that darkSector is both technically canon and entirely irrelevant. It happened, but thousands of years ago, so we can forget about it either way

Edited April 5, 2016 by TARINunit9

[AEP8FlyBoy]

Just now, TARINunit9 said:

They've announced in devstream 52 that darkSector is both technically canon and entirely irrelevant. It happened, but thousands of years ago, so we can forget about it either way

Maybe... I always did think it'd be cool if Operators could be inside of their Warframes just like the old times... if Warframe and Dark Sector are indeed canonically identical.

[Campaigner]

2 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

Yes and no. Everything makes sense except Stalker (who was outright retcon'd)

I disagree on that point actually: it is too soon to label it as a retcon.

What exactly the stalker is can still be considered to be a mystery because dialogue in any great story tends to be straightforward yet entirely misleading in order to create twists. I for one highly doubt that the stalker is just like the other tenno. If there is some special distinction, like him being from a different type of military project or possibly even an enlightened warframe that is no longer fully controlled, then the old lore could still fit in with the Second Dream.

[TARINunit9]

5 minutes ago, AEP8FlyBoy said:

Maybe... I always did think it'd be cool if Operators could be inside of their Warframes just like the old times... if Warframe and Dark Sector are indeed canonically identical.

I don't follow you. Hayden didn't have power armor, he was a human with a plague that made metallic plates jut out of his flesh

2 minutes ago, Campaigner said:

I disagree on that point actually: it is too soon to label it as a retcon.

What exactly the stalker is can still be considered to be a mystery because dialogue in any great story tends to be straightforward yet entirely misleading in order to create twists. I for one highly doubt that the stalker is just like the other tenno. If there is some special distinction, like him being from a different type of military project or possibly even an enlightened warframe that is no longer fully controlled, then the old lore could still fit in with the Second Dream.

The fact that you think Stalker is ANY kind of Tenno means you're missing the retcon. Stalker's old lore had Stalker say TO OUR FACES that he was not nor could ever be possibly labeled as a Tenno; he was a non-Tenno human Guardian (possibly an undead one) who wore a stolen Warframe. Then comes Second Dream which implies he's a Tenno

Edited April 5, 2016 by TARINunit9

[Ibro156]

I have to strongly disagree with your statement. I personally think DE had done a great job by allowing the frames not be a suit, but rather a living being thing itself. By going with idea what was originally intended, I wouldn't really be enjoying myself with game's lore as much, as we have a saturated market with body building heros with love for justice. Instead allowing the frames be a living organic being by itself, It gave more depth of character, then the idea of suit - which would make the frames' personality redundant. By making them a living thing it allows the frame to be animalistic from what shown in Rhino Prime Entry and what had been seen in ending of the Second Dream. They had answered the age old question. "what is a Tenno?", but had raised another one. "what is a Warframe?". Right now, I am fully immersed in the Warframe's lore. Giving the idea of the Operators are just kids, giving me a refreshing air from the oversaturated market, that is full of games like COD, Destiny, BOF, XCOM and anything else with protagonist that is a buffy soldier doing goodness just because.

Edited April 5, 2016 by Ibro156

[AuroraSonicBoom]

Yeah, that's the only thing I didn't like about the second dream at first, but DE has hinted multiple times that frames are sentient and therefor could have a personality of their own. I'm absolutely certain the frame/operator relationship will be delved into more deeply in the future. I mean, the climax of the second dream was the frame coming alive against everybody's expectations(including the Tenno's) to break War.

[AEP8FlyBoy]

2 minutes ago, Ibro156 said:

Right now, I am fully immersed in the Warframe's lore. Giving the idea of the Operators are just kids, giving me a refreshing air from the oversaturated market, that is full of games like COD, Destiny, BOF, XCOM and anything else with protagonist is a buffy soldier doing goodness just because.

Agreed... I think it is a refreshing take as well.

[Katinka]

20 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

Yes and no. Everything makes sense except Stalker (who was outright retcon'd) and Mirage. When Mirage was killed by the Senteints, it was permadeath with no chance to rebuild her until the present day. Under the current post-Second-Dream lore, this would never be a concern; Mirage's Zariman child was tucked away safely on the Moon, so a replacement Mirage should have been cooking in the foundry afterwards

He used to exist. He's dead from old age thousands and thousands of years ago

How was Stalker retcon'd?  I didn't think we knew enough about him for him to be retcon'd.  As for Mirage, were teh Tenno on the moon by that point?  The Orbiters already had their chairs, we didn't have to build that room.  Perhaps her operator was on an Orbiter and the Sentients found it.  Try re-reading Lotus's lines from that quest on ht eWiki and while you do, bear in mind that she's hiding the fact that there are two parts to the Tenno she's talking about.  Reading between the lines, some of what she says could be about the Warframe and othe rparts the Operator.  I believe both were killed at that point.  This may be part of why Lotus then organised a retreat to the Moon and then the Void.

[AEP8FlyBoy]

5 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

I don't follow you. Hayden didn't have power armor, he was a human with a plague that made metallic plates jut out of his flesh.

Right... I forgot about that part. It's been a while since I've seen Dark Sector. Forgot that the Technocytes made armor right out of his skin...

[TARINunit9]

Just now, Katinka said:

How was Stalker retcon'd?  I didn't think we knew enough about him for him to be retcon'd

*sigh* Let me gt the copy-paste...

Stalker's old lore had Stalker say TO OUR FACES that he was not nor could ever be possibly labeled as a Tenno; he was a non-Tenno human Guardian (possibly an undead one) who wore a stolen Warframe. Then comes Second Dream which implies he's a Tenno

[BornWithTeeth]

@TARINunit9

 

Across multiple threads, you keep using this word to describe old Stalker. 'Undead'. What is the source for this? 

 

I do recall that we had a discussion of this before, where it seemed that a part of the problem of translation between you and I was that you had translated 'Guardian' as 'mall cop' and then never stopped to consider all of the things which it might or might not actually mean.

 

 

Effectively, what I'm getting at here is that "Stalker is an undead mall cop who swore vengeance" is, um. Not actually proven. Not even by his old Codex entry. Quite literally the only thing which we can take from his old Codex entry is that he was of a different rank to the Tenno, who were being treated as glorious saviours by the Orokin. Anything beyond that is, and always has been, speculation. 

Edited April 5, 2016 by BornWithTeeth

[AEP8FlyBoy]

1 minute ago, BornWithTeeth said:

Effectively, what I'm getting at here is that "Stalker is an undead mall cop who swore vengeance" is, um. Not actually proven. Not even by his old Codex entry. Quite literally the only thing which we can take from his old Codex entry is that he was of a different rank to the Tenno, who were being treated as glorious saviours by the Orokin. Anything beyond that is, and always has been, speculation. 

Anyone else for a Stalker backstory cinematic quest? Raise your hand! No? 

Just me? :(

Edited April 5, 2016 by AEP8FlyBoy

[TARINunit9]

Just now, BornWithTeeth said:

Across multiple threads, you keep using this word to describe old Stalker. 'Undead'. What is the source for this? 

You know the stance mod that Conculysts drop? Vengeful Revenant? Revenants in Celtic/Scottish lore are undead beings. I never said it was canon, I always say "possibly"

But between Stalker A) being identified as a Revenant, and B) Stalker being trapped in a ship with an army of murder-hungry Tenno warriors with orders to kill everything that moves, and C) the fact that this took place in Outer Terminus solar rail station and also destroyed said solar rail, thus almost certainly exposing Stalker's corpse to the Void... I think my logic is sound

2 minutes ago, BornWithTeeth said:

Quite literally the only thing which we can take from his old Codex entry is that he was of a different rank to the Tenno, who were being treated as glorious saviours by the Orokin. Anything beyond that is, and always has been, speculation. 

In his codex lore he VERY deliberately distances himself from the Tenno. "The Tenno were over there being praised as heroes. I was a low Guardian, so I stood over here." Stalker makes it very clear that Tenno and low Guardian are mutually exclusive

The "mall cop" thing is just a random insult

[Pavelord]

37 minutes ago, KYVampire said:

1. You play as a character. Games such as TF2, Borderlands and the upcoming Overwatch give you characters with distinct personalities who you control. In some cases these are fully fleshed out characters who have their own quirks. Alot of JRPGs such as Final Fantasy also use this model. The Warframes are very much like separate characters who we use to play our missions. I like to think they get their little quirks from the original Tenno who piloted the originals during the Old War and those quirks got imprinted into these mass produced models we use now. 

I don't think this is the case, the reason is because it is really perverted. For practical purposes the warframes are suits of armor for the Tenno, so people are saying that when Mirage sends kisses or Nezha strikes a pose, it was not the operator, meaning your wardrobe is coming to life, posing, showing some quirks, then you push that intelligence aside and insert the operators´.

But Mirage still send kisses and Nezha still strike poses, when in mission when supposedly the Tenno is in control, when the whole idea of transference was that the tenno could have a substitute body to live their lives via a virtual brain transplant.

[TARINunit9]

5 minutes ago, AEP8FlyBoy said:

Anyone else for a Stalker backstory cinematic quest? Raise your hand! No? 

Just me? :(

I'd be up for that if it includes a flashback of that fateful day in the Outer Terminus, where we get to shiv him up alongside this oh so precious Orokin Emperors

[Genoscythe]

2 hours ago, Naith said:

Regarding your title and the first half of your OP I personally disagree. I found that I felt that I had a bit more of an identity with the Operator and made it actually feel a little more personal. Probably in the minority here for that as there's a crowd with pitchforks who still complain about the concept DE went for, but I admire them sticking by it regardless. Despite that, Warframe's are still 'inhabited', but just not in the literal sense.

I strongly agree, the fact taht warframes are gender-locked and all are completely different made it hard for me to identify, especially because I play all of them. The operator gives me the possibility to be 'me' in the game, a character I can customize and identify with. Not everyone wants to play as a pre-made character but also just pretend it's them being the one in the game.

[KYVampire]

1 minute ago, Pavelord said:

I don't think this is the case, the reason is because it is really perverted. For practical purposes the warframes are suits of armor for the Tenno, so people are saying that when Mirage sends kisses or Nezha strikes a pose, it was not the operator, meaning your wardrobe is coming to life, posing, showing some quirks, then you push that intelligence aside and insert the operators´.

But Mirage still send kisses and Nezha still strike poses, when in mission when supposedly the Tenno is in control, when the whole idea of transference was that the tenno could have a substitute body to live their lives via a virtual brain transplant.

Sorry perhaps I could have explained my thought process better. 

I am of the opinion that when the Operator takes control of the warframe, their mind takes on some of those quirks that are present in the warframe itself.

Its weird and I have no clue how human conciousness works and even IF there could be "remnants" of such things in an possibly animate but non-sentient object. But the Second Dream quest did have the scene where the warframe broke the War and thus we have this debate of whether the warframes have that spark of life or sentience. 

[Pavelord]

4 minutes ago, KYVampire said:

 

No need to apologise, I´m also genuinely puzzle at this ideas, there still some unknowns that makes the specifics hard to catch, and some of this subtle ideas make or break liking the reveal for a lot of people.

As I wrote that paragraph I tought of the acolytes and the margulis implant that suposedly prevents  other "voices" from taking over (the warframe?, the infested?), and the mysterious transmissions hinting at some sort of hacking attempt.  Things still can go a lot of different ways.

[BornWithTeeth]

24 minutes ago, TARINunit9 said:

You know the stance mod that Conculysts drop? Vengeful Revenant? Revenants in Celtic/Scottish lore are undead beings. I never said it was canon, I always say "possibly"

But between Stalker A) being identified as a Revenant, and B) Stalker being trapped in a ship with an army of murder-hungry Tenno warriors with orders to kill everything that moves, and C) the fact that this took place in Outer Terminus solar rail station and also destroyed said solar rail, thus almost certainly exposing Stalker's corpse to the Void... I think my logic is sound

In his codex lore he VERY deliberately distances himself from the Tenno. "The Tenno were over there being praised as heroes. I was a low Guardian, so I stood over here." Stalker makes it very clear that Tenno and low Guardian are mutually exclusive

The "mall cop" thing is just a random insult

 

Hydroid is on the card for the Swirling Tiger stance, but remains a sea monster, not a cat. Excalibur is on the mod card for Iron Phoenix, not Ember. The fact that Stalker is on the card for Vengeful Revenant is not a direct statement that he is undead.  

 

 

Stalker's Codex entry says absolutely nothing about being on a ship. At all. In any way. It mentions a stadium, but not a ship. 

Stalker makes it clear that the Tenno were being honoured, while the Guardians were watching, yes. He very noticeably does not amend his statement. His Codex entry does not read "I watched from a distance, with the rest of the low Guardians. All of us were physically present, as Guardians are nothing at all like Tenno, and we do not use Transference or tele-operated Warframes. With each beat terror began to crush my throat."

 

So, um. Yeah. "Stalker is an undead soldier who was never, ever anything like the Tenno" remains a statement which cannot actually be extracted from his Codex.