All this hate towards tonkor.....

[-dicht.Amducias-]

People will always find something to complain about.. 

Synoid simulor will be next after tonkor gets nerfed into the ground..

Also this, exactly:

8 minutes ago, T7Alpha said:

People acting like juicy crits from the tonkor are changing everything when 90% of the time it's just overkill and you are running around with a 2 shot clip for no real reason because the mobs could be 1 hit killed by the sonicor.

 

[TheBrsrkr]

If you're going to make a new thread on a topic that has 4 different threads about it, in the correct section, at least bother to read some of them, and at the very least avoid meta complaining. 

[(PSN)IIIDevoidIII]

1 hour ago, -----LegioN----- said:

Thanks for trying to defend tonkor by recognizing it's an unbalanced weapon. 

About drawbacks: 

Small clip? Use a faster reload and you're done

Bouncy nades? They won't even hurt you, how's that such a big drawback?

Imo, tonkor can be fixed on different ways:

A) proper self damage (nade jump tied to alt fire, obsolete thanks to bullet jump, I don't get people trying to get rid of vauban's bounce but defending tonkor which is in a similar spot) in line with other launchers. + increase mr lock

B) keep the reduced self damage but cut its damage instead, making it some kind of training weapon useful only on starchart up to saturn or uranus. Make it ragdoll enemies instead to make it a cc gun with low power.

Or whatever else, but easy baby mode has to stop.

13

Faster reload would mean a reduced damage output. It's a drawback, not one that can't be mitigated, but it's foolish to deny it. If the clip held 20 grenades, you'd see how that'd be an issue.

Bouncy grenades is the largest drawback this weapon has. It practically qualifies the weapon as being most useful against crowds of enemies instead of single target. The weapon is inaccurate, so long range is out in most scenarios, meaning single target kills are mostly run into their face and fire down their throats. If you miss your target, the grenade tends to bounce away. It may snag a couple of guys you didn't intend to hit, but it's nothing like the Penta, or Ogris, or Castanas, in that if you miss your intended target, you cannot rely on explosion damage or a secondary fire to kill. The only way to mitigate this is with Adhesive Blast, which then adds a timer when impacting the enemy instead of an immediate explosion, forcing another drawback.

Yes, the weapon is imbalanced, but the drawbacks shouldn't be trivialized as much as you are making it out to be.

 

Reduce the radius of the blast in which the Tonkor deals full damage, and apply a ragdoll toward the center of the radius. That's how I'd balance it out.

[Ailith]

2 hours ago, WARLOCKE said:

So you admit its op then question why players would have a problem with that? The crutch is real.

It's amazing how some people can skew words, I literally pointed at the game's overall balance as the reason why the Tonkor is so powerful. To quote myself:

2 hours ago, Ailith said:

As someone has said before, "Warframe is either too hard or too easy, there is no inbetween", but let's not ask for proper game balance. Nope. Let's just make things unnecessarily harder and less fun.

Some of the game's content makes most weapons irrelevant. Some weapons make most content a breeze. Fix the content > fix the game. The problem is that our weapons don't scale.

2 hours ago, IceColdHawk said:

I'm well aware of that and unless they fix this, it shouldn't get touched. And it can also get it's own self-damage explosion radius so you got more breathing room.

The problem is it works too good lmao.

Don't mix me in lol. I was just saying the self of lack damage is the only problem the tonkor has and probably the only legitimate reason for it to get "nerfed" aka self-damage. But tbh, i don't care if it's get changed or not. Just wanting to stay honest. I'm always having fun with my good ol' snipetron vandal whether there are tonkor users or not. The argument "i can't get kills cuz my m8s use tonkor" is a blatant fallacy.

I know my comment reads as being just a little heated, but that last part was a general "why bother", it wasn't directed entirely at you. My apologies.

I just don't think that adding self-damage is the right way to go. Like so many other changes, it's just another band-aid fix that doesn't solve the actual problem (the game's horrible enemy balance) and, in this case, adds an extremely anti-fun element to the Tonkor's behavior: the ability to insta-gib or severely damage yourself, most likely by complete accident.

Edited May 15, 2016 by Ailith

[Cyonan]

The problem is that the Tonkor as it is right now simply isn't good for the game in my opinion.

Right now if I want to run a longer Survival, Defense, or Inteception in the void or sorties then I'll rather quickly reach the point where my Tonkor pulls out in effectiveness ahead of almost every other weapon, even ahead of my Sancti Tigris. The problem we end up with in this scenario is that the Tonkor actively discourages using a variety of weapons, because why bring anything else when I can bring my Tonkor can make the mission 5 times easier on myself?

One of Warframe's biggest strengths as a game is the variety in armaments we can use, and the Tonkor is going against that because it's so much stronger than almost any other weapon.

Now people will say "Why can't we just buff everything else up to Tonkor level? You shouldn't nerf things!". The problem with that line of thinking is that it's a huge undertaking to buff virtually everything else in the game which causes power creep, so you now have to buff the enemy to compensate(which is basically just a nerf to the player as a whole). On top of that since you made so many balance changes, no developer however skilled is going to get it 100% balanced. So you've likely got a new gun that's in the situation the Tonkor is now. Repeat ad infinitum.

I also don't think turning it into a mastery fodder weapon is the solution either. I would argue that ideally, no weapon except the Mk1 starter weapons should be mastery fodder. That doesn't mean everything is perfectly balanced, but in general weapons should not feel useless in high level void missions or sorties either.

I don't think it even needs to have that big of a nerf. Mostly just a small reduction in the crit chance/damage, and remove the automatic headshots.

[Radjehuty]

I actually don't use the tonkor because it feels so broken. The whole idea of weapons of this type is to shoot from a safe distance at a pack. You should not be able to go up point blank and blast the crap out of things because it does huge amounts of damage and because it's weird to aim with for someone new to it. The MR requirement for weapons in the game in general should be looked at. Tonkor is a prime example. Sure you can keep it at such huge damage as it is now, but it definitely needs a big requirement and it should involve risk as every other explosive weapon type. There's far less complaints about Synoid Simulor purely because of the MR 12 requirement even though it can do very comparable damage with no risk.

[taiiat]

the bad aim, for anyone that actually knows what they're talking about - is actually a benefit.
literally just shoot randomly in all directions and everything dies(due to normal AoE Range and undeserved Damage). that is the most effective way to use it.

not that it's the only Weapon in that category, but there aren't that many atleast.

Edited May 15, 2016 by taiiat

[YasaiTsume]

What they should do with all explosives is remove body multipliers period.

When someone has been blown to smithereens by a bomb, like hell anyone can claim it was a headshot. 
 

 

[Cat__Nap]

1 hour ago, Zachhh said:

Lack of self damage has nothing to do with why I use the tonkor over any other launcher. Self damage on the tonkor would make absolutely no sense. The grenades are very difficult to control, unlike the penta which detonates whenever you want, or the ogris which fires in a straight line. Oftentimes you'll miss a tonkor shot because of a weird uncontrollable bounce, and it will only explode 10 seconds later because you or an enemy walks over it.

 

Learn to aim better. Not saying that the wonky aim isn't a drawback, because it is, but it's not as huge a deal as you seem to think it is. You can make up for the aim being a bit off by not aiming directly at whatever you're trying to hit, and if it still misses, you have a second shot you can fire right away. If you miss both...well, get better. It's something that does make Tonkor different from some other launchers, but that doesn't make the weapon any less ridiculous than it is. If the biggest argument against balancing a weapon that is one of the most powerful in the game despite being obtainable by newbies because of its incredibly low MR requirement is, "but it's not that easy to aim," well, I think the argument's already lost.

I wouldn't like to see the weapon nerfed into the ground, but what some people have been suggesting for months on tweaks that could be made to this weapon that wouldn't break it, but bring it in line with other launchers and actually make other choices viable along the way. People aren't asking for it to be broken; they're asking for it to have something resembling a semblance of balance.

Go take Penta, Kulstar, Ogris, etc, to a mission and play them just like you do with Tonkor. See how balanced it is in comparison. My Kulstar can come close to my Tonkor's damage, but it can also oneshot me in a heartbeat if even one of the cluster grenades jumps back at me - not even the actual grenade, just the clusters. And if I'm downed because I just oneshot myself, and shoot a second before someone finishes reviving me, I'm instantly oneshot again. I love that weapon, but the ridiculous no cap self-damage makes it hard to use even at the best of times. Meanwhile, you can spam Tonkor point blank all you want and it does nothing.

Personally, all I want is to see self-damage from weapons like these to be capped to a reasonable level so anyone who actually likes the other launchers isn't oneshotting themselves all the time - and add self-damage to Tonkor. It wouldn't make or break the weapon in any way, just make using the others an option and make Tonkor less ezmode.

[IfritKajiTora]

3 hours ago, CMcDrake said:

Seeing this balancing threads of tonkor on forums makes me sad. Dont the non-tonkor player understand that tonkor does have drawbacks.? The small clip size , the bouncy nades , sh1ty aim etc does balance this launcher. While i believe that it is very good at clearing mobs it doesnt mean it should be nerfed or balanced. It is good where it is at. 

MAYBE if we really want a change to the tonkor , Lock it up at a higher MR

Then Tell me, why I use Tonkor and Synoid Simulor all the time?

I use them because they are OP.

I was all the time using OGRIS but Ogris is not that powerfull as Tonkor.

People are using Tonkor and Synoid Simulor because those weapons are OP. That same was with Soma and Boltor Prime when they came to the game.

Its just easy to understand what weapons are OP.

If everything is balanced then you want to use different ways anytime, here is just Tonkor and Synoid Simulor. And that means that those weapons are OP.

 

Many people just tries to make excuses for OP weapons like, you need to aim, this weapon is actually not that powerfull because of small magazine, weak accuracy etc.... just to not see the nerf of their favourite OP weapon.

I don't move to sorties without Tonkor or Synoid Simulor, I tried different weapons....and nope, only Tonkor and Synoid Simulor can easy handle those missions.

Edited May 15, 2016 by IfritKajiTora

[VinDanger]

3 hours ago, CMcDrake said:

Seeing this balancing threads of tonkor on forums makes me sad. Dont the non-tonkor player understand that tonkor does have drawbacks.? The small clip size , the bouncy nades , sh1ty aim etc does balance this launcher. While i believe that it is very good at clearing mobs it doesnt mean it should be nerfed or balanced. It is good where it is at. 

MAYBE if we really want a change to the tonkor , Lock it up at a higher MR

the small magazine doesn't matter when 2 grenades is more than enough to clear a room

the grenades bouncing and the weird accuracy it has at times doesn't matter when you can run right up to an enemy or shoot it at your feet for a guaranteed hit with no risk to the user involved

an arbitrary mastery rank lock wouldn't make any of this okay

[IfritKajiTora]

2 minutes ago, VinDanger said:

the small magazine doesn't matter when 2 grenades is more than enough to clear a room

the grenades bouncing and the weird accuracy it has at times doesn't matter when you can run right up to an enemy or shoot it at your feet for a guaranteed hit with no risk to the user involved

an arbitrary mastery rank lock wouldn't make any of this okay

Yeah thats right. I can just run inside the group of enemies and with one shot I can just blow up the entire army.

[Melos-mevim]

3 hours ago, IceColdHawk said:

The only problem i see is it's lack of self-damage compared to other launchers. That's all. Not the damage itself.

then maybe the issue is too much self damage on the other launchers doesn't it seem silly to any one else that you can one shot yourself in a game where you fight up close and personal with giant swarms of enemies where you constantly eat rockets and grenades from them? but one stray misplaced penta grenade that you were not aware was that close to you and your up in smoke.

[shyguyk]

3 minutes ago, Melos-mevim said:

then maybe the issue is too much self damage on the other launchers doesn't it seem silly to any one else that you can one shot yourself in a game where you fight up close and personal with giant swarms of enemies where you constantly eat rockets and grenades from them? but one stray misplaced penta grenade that you were not aware was that close to you and your up in smoke.

Wouldn't this make single target weapons less useful in comparison when theres 7 weapons that clear the group in less time with less ammo spent? The tonkor would still make them for the most part redundant due to its higher crit stats and radius. Why run a soma  to mow down the heavies one by one when just shooting the ancient in the group kills all of them in an area with no risk to yourself?

Edited May 15, 2016 by shyguyk

[(PSN)H3x3wahn]

3 hours ago, (PS4)WINDMILEYNO said:

Self damage should be capped...:/

The tonkor would be a worse version of the kulstar with self damage.

But that aside, the gun is really easy to use, it's drawbacks aren't noticable compared to the drawbacks the ogris and maybe penta have? And since those guns aren't getting touched, tonkor post show up every where, about it's unfairness

Why not keep it like this and improve other launchers a bit? Tonkor lobs grenades so, unless you aim very high, it doesn't have a huge range, thus the need for low self-damage. Penta could honestly benefit from the same treatment and maybe have the grenades explode on impact no matter the surface. For the Ogris, maybe give it tracking, like Bombards have. TBH, the Tonkor is only usefull when enemies are all clustered together, otherwise, it's a waste of ammo, which is why I barely only use it against infested, either on defense, or using a Loki + Decoy. If anything, the Synoid Simulor is much more OP, but just because it's MR 12, no one talks about it. This isn't serious...

[Melos-mevim]

Just now, shyguyk said:

Wouldn't this make single target weapons less useful in comparison when theres 7 weapons that clear the group in less time with less ammo spent? The tonkor would still make them for the most part redundant due to its higher crit stats and radius. Why run a soma  to mow down the heavies one by one when just shooting the ancient in the group kills all of them?

ammo efficiency is where single target weapons already have an advantage over explosive weapons (which will still do self damage mind you but not enough that one screw up with a talon is enough to kill you) there is also still the matter of personal taste something many people seem to forget is a thing. there has never been a NEED to use tonkor, you can still kill with a dread, or a soma prime, or a sancti or a hek, or a tyrad of other weapons. hell with right modding and know how melee can actually do more damage than a tonkor, grab a frame like excal or inaros, slap on body count and you will eventually reach a point where you are doing more dmg to enemas than tonkor 3 hours in to a T4S.

 

but back on to the subject of tonkor and explosive weapons, the reason a lot of people don't use the other explosive weapons is not because they suck dmg wise (some of them do yes but thats not the main reason) no the main reason is unless you keep a good 50 feet between you and the explosion your going to kill yourself. only way to prevent killing yourself is gimping the damage of your gun but great now it doesn't work vs enemies

[shyguyk]

28 minutes ago, Melos-mevim said:

ammo efficiency is where single target weapons already have an advantage over explosive weapons (which will still do self damage mind you but not enough that one screw up with a talon is enough to kill you) there is also still the matter of personal taste something many people seem to forget is a thing. there has never been a NEED to use tonkor, you can still kill with a dread, or a soma prime, or a sancti or a hek, or a tyrad of other weapons. hell with right modding and know how melee can actually do more damage than a tonkor, grab a frame like excal or inaros, slap on body count and you will eventually reach a point where you are doing more dmg to enemas than tonkor 3 hours in to a T4S.

 

but back on to the subject of tonkor and explosive weapons, the reason a lot of people don't use the other explosive weapons is not because they suck dmg wise (some of them do yes but thats not the main reason) no the main reason is unless you keep a good 50 feet between you and the explosion your going to kill yourself. only way to prevent killing yourself is gimping the damage of your gun but great now it doesn't work vs enemies

Why is it that i only hear stories of ammo mutation on single target weapons then? I never hear it for launchers. Usually one of the 10 enemies you blow up has that 10 ammo refund for you. instead of 20/1500 when using a glaxion.

Yea, some suck damage wise, but giving them no self damage doesn't make them suck less, and giving them more damage AND no self damage just invalidates more (not all) single target weapons unless they want to waste slots for shred and metal augur.

There is no need to use the tonkor. we understand that. but it becomes a situation of "x rewards you 5 times as much for the same effort as y, so why use x." Unless the weapon is silly like the sonicor, people probably will choose x.

Melee... Pre body count you'd say there was issues. Just highlights bodycount as a "mandatory" mod.

 

Edit: I agree on a cap on self damage, just didnt want to put another post to show that.

 

Edited May 15, 2016 by shyguyk

[Melos-mevim]

13 minutes ago, shyguyk said:

Why is it that i only hear stories of ammo mutation on single target weapons then? I never hear it for launchers. Usually one of the 10 enemies you blow up has that 10 ammo refund for you. instead of 20/1500 when using a glaxion.

Yea, some suck damage wise, but giving them no self damage doesn't make them suck less, and giving them more damage AND no self damage just invalidates more (not all) single target weapons unless they want to waste slots for shred and metal augur.

There is no need to use the tonkor. we understand that. but it becomes a situation of "x rewards you 5 times as much for the same effort as y, so why use x." Unless the weapon is silly like the sonicor, people probably will choose x.

Melee... Pre body count you'd say there was issues. Just highlights bodycount as a "mandatory" mod.

 

said it once will say it again I never said NO self damage on explosive weapons, I however have said the self damage they do have is to bloody high, they are way to punishing for this kind of game there needs to be reduced self damage on them, enough to make you not shoot a rocket at your feet, but not so much that if you explode your penta grenades and one had happened to find its way behind you after bouncing off a wall and you didn't notice because the the over load of special effects those corpus spam (another issue for another topic) that you don't kill yourself on the spot.

 

as for body count I agree its a stupid band aid and DE needs to take a good hard look at how useless the combo system is right now but again another topic for another day

Edited May 15, 2016 by Melos-mevim

[(PSN)WINDMILEYNO]

12 minutes ago, shyguyk said:

Yea, some suck damage wise, but giving them no self damage doesn't make them suck less, and giving them more damage AND no self damage just invalidates more (not all) single target weapons unless they want to waste slots for shred and metal augur.

The guy you are talking to is right, self damage on other launchers needs a cap, if the tonkor is going to pretty much do none at all. No they don't all need to be judged damage wise.

[ArchangelusAlpharius]

Guys, don't forget the tonkor becomes basically NULLIFIED the second it runs into a mob of Sortie tier or higher enemies hiding under a nullifier bubble...hell, even arctic bubbles cause problems.

We are also forgetting something else. Instead of the "easy" route, nerfing the tonkor and drawing rage...Why not take the "hard" route and buffing everything that players view as subpar?

TLDR: Tonkor has drawbacks, buff everything else

Edited May 15, 2016 by ArchangelusAlpharius

[Robm]

1 hour ago, (PS4)IIIDevoidIII said:

Yes, the weapon is imbalanced, but the drawbacks shouldn't be trivialized as much as you are making it out to be.

Reduce the radius of the blast in which the Tonkor deals full damage, and apply a ragdoll toward the center of the radius. That's how I'd balance it out.

I am inclined to agree this would be the best solution. However, I would just like to add that all explosive weapons should have some form of self-damage. Say you have Excalibur with 740 shields and health and you hit yourself (because physics). I would propose that you loose half of what you in shields and health is combined. So in Excalibur's case, he would only have his health left. I think it should ignore Iron skin, and warding halo (we could debate that). So, this way all explosive weapons would have form of punishment for using them but still have a opportunity to recover without going down.

So the math equation to figure out for any frame would be Health + Shields / 2 = remaining health/shields on a warframe. We could include armor, but meh, that require math.

[bejuizb]

A way to fix all launcher type weapons is to provide them self damage properties, but capping it to a point. That way, you won't fear your life toting an Ogris than you would seeing a lvl 100 Napalm hiding under a Nullifier's shield. 

Once we set that baseline, we can tweak the weapons to have specific traits.

Ogris: Accuracy and range.

Penta: Headshots and trickshots.

Kulstar: AoE splash damage

Tonkor: Extremely high damage, low ammo economy

Torid: DoT damage, and sustained DPS. Zone control.

Now players get a choice of launcher based on how they wish to play the game. Launchers maintain low ammo, very high damage, and self harm risks across the board, the difference being playstyles and stats. 

[(PSN)Quil_Nye]

4 hours ago, CMcDrake said:

Seeing this balancing threads of tonkor on forums makes me sad. Dont the non-tonkor player understand that tonkor does have drawbacks.? The small clip size , the bouncy nades , sh1ty aim etc does balance this launcher. While i believe that it is very good at clearing mobs it doesnt mean it should be nerfed or balanced. It is good where it is at. 

MAYBE if we really want a change to the tonkor , Lock it up at a higher MR

no do not lock it at a higher MR its the only decent weapon for lowbies lol.  I think you already made your point it is fine where it is because of the sucky aiming and low clip its actually not a very good weapon.  I never use it anymore but when I run with lowbies I ask them to bring it if they have it if they don't I suggest they build it.  it is The best STARTER weapon for lowbies if this gets taken away or nerffed I don't know how much I will want to run with lowbies or how fun it will be for them to run with me anyways.  How would you feel just watching someone else do all the killing etc...   you would probably feel useless.  Anyways my vote is to keep it how it is its by far not the best weapon.

[ShadowFel]

1 hour ago, CoRRh said:

...Either way, if someone wants to play a certain why that doesn't harm DE or other players, why try to stop them?

The problem is, the Tonkor (and the Synoid) DO harm other players.  They harm the enjoyment of any other player in the squad, because they make that player feel redundant.  I enjoy most of the game modes in Warframe (except sometimes Defense, but hey, everybody has something), but that enjoyment vanishes if I'm on a team with someone using one of those 2 weapons.  I've used both, but out of consideration for other players, I tend to avoid using them because, like a Bladestorm Ash or an EB Excalibur, it ruins the game for everyone else in the squad (I'd also appreciate the grating sounds of Exalted Blade being changed, but you can't have everything you want).  Sure, the person using them often is having some fun, but the 3 other people are either thinking "I feel inferior, I need to get one of those" or "wake me up when the mission's over, because I'm obviously not needed".  

The problem with these 2 weapons is that they have the ability to apply damage as high as heavyweights like the Sancti Tigris, or Hek, or Soma Prime, or Boltor Prime, or Opticor, but unlike those they barely need to be aimed (I've used the Tonkor enough to say that its accuracy is not near as much of a problem as people claim it is), and can apply that damage over a large area.  And they have essentially no downside.  

Yes, the real problem in this game is that enemies tend to scale out of control, which makes a lot of weapons less effective when levels get high, and that for many people the actual gameplay has become lackluster and they prefer to speed run through it, but the Tonkor and Synoid Simulor are band-aids to those problems, and until the band-aids are removed, the problems can be ignored by saying "just use a better weapon like the Tonkor".  I'd much rather see the Tonkor and the Synoid get nerfed into the ground, and scaling fixed so that all weapons are more usable, than the current state of affairs continuing to exist because people don't want to see their favorite weapon get taken down.  And the Tonkor and Synoid getting nerfed might be the wake-up call some people need to realize that they aren't enjoying the game anymore, and need to move on.

I love using the Synoid, but I hate the effect it has on every other weapon.  I feel inconsiderate every time I bring it into a mission.  I don't enjoy using the Tonkor because it's so good it's boring.  It makes the more interesting weapons feel pointless, because why work for those headshots with a bow or a sniper when you can just blast their entire body into oblivion?  Why go stealthy when you can just fire Grenades around the room and wipe everyone out before they can think "alarm"?  The fact that people make Zephyr builds AROUND the Tonkor, and Mirage builds AROUND the Synoid are signs that these weapons are causing a problem.  The warframe should always be the most valuable part of the build, but in the case of these weapons, the warframe is just a tool to make the weapon better.

[Hayabusa97]

2 hours ago, -dicht.Amducias- said:

People will always find something to complain about.. 

Synoid simulor will be next after tonkor gets nerfed into the ground..

Also this, exactly:

 

Except the Synoid Simulor is already gated behind two things

1. A Mastery Rank requirement of 12

2. Max Standing with Cephalon Suda. Assuming you have no negative affinity, you will need to spend the following: 940,000 credits, 500 circuits, 1 Forma, 1 Orokin Catalyst, 1 Lex Prime Reciever, 1 Nova Prime helmet, and a lot of time getting everything I just said (and no amount of Draco cheesing will help with raising standing, it is either Syndicate missions or bust)

 

I doubt anyone would be happy working through all that only to get a crappy weapon.