All this hate towards tonkor.....

[-dicht.Amducias-]

7 minutes ago, Hayabusa97 said:

Except the Synoid Simulor is already gated behind two things

1. A Mastery Rank requirement of 12

2. Max Standing with Cephalon Suda. Assuming you have no negative affinity, you will need to spend the following: 940,000 credits, 500 circuits, 1 Forma, 1 Orokin Catalyst, 1 Lex Prime Reciever, 1 Nova Prime helmet, and a lot of time getting everything I just said (and no amount of Draco cheesing will help with raising standing, it is either Syndicate missions or bust)

 

I doubt anyone would be happy working through all that only to get a crappy weapon.

Still doesnt make the synoid simulor worse and people will cry about it after the tonkor nerf, believe me

[-dicht.Amducias-]

2 hours ago, YasaiTsume said:

What they should do with all explosives is remove body multipliers period.

When someone has been blown to smithereens by a bomb, like hell anyone can claim it was a headshot. 
 

 

Yes because the shockwave is magically missing his head and only targeting his torso.. alright.. sounds legit

[Stormdragon]

2 hours ago, (PS4)IIIDevoidIII said:

Faster reload would mean a reduced damage output. It's a drawback, not one that can't be mitigated, but it's foolish to deny it. If the clip held 20 grenades, you'd see how that'd be an issue.

Yeah, anyways tonkor's damage output is amazing even if we equip fast hands instead of any dual stat mod. Anyways borken armor enemy scaling is what makes most players build towards higher damage instead of going towards making the weapon perform better.

 

2 hours ago, (PS4)IIIDevoidIII said:

Bouncy grenades is the largest drawback this weapon has. It practically qualifies the weapon as being most useful against crowds of enemies instead of single target. 

Isn't exactly that the reason to take aoe weapons over a semi-auto or a sniper? I mean, these weapons have a low amo pool to disencourage mindless spamming,unless the player decides to increase the ammo availability by using ammo drum or ammo mutation, leading to a slight sacrifice in the damage output (see above)

 

2 hours ago, (PS4)IIIDevoidIII said:

The weapon is inaccurate, so long range is out in most scenarios, meaning single target kills are mostly run into their face and fire down their throats. If you miss your target, the grenade tends to bounce away. It may snag a couple of guys you didn't intend to hit, but it's nothing like the Penta, or Ogris, or Castanas, in that if you miss your intended target, you cannot rely on explosion damage or a secondary fire to kill. The only way to mitigate this is with Adhesive Blast, which then adds a timer when impacting the enemy instead of an immediate explosion, forcing another drawback.

I can't see greande launchers inaccuracy on long range as a drawback, I see it more like a small snippet of balance in it (see above), otherwise there should be no reason to take anything but aoe weapons nor change to a good secondary in order to kill single targets or enemies far away, so those drawbacks aren't as big as manyplayers might be trying to paint'em.

 

2 hours ago, (PS4)IIIDevoidIII said:

Reduce the radius of the blast in which the Tonkor deals full damage, and apply a ragdoll toward the center of the radius. That's how I'd balance it out.

I like the idea, an "implosion gun" sounds neat. but I still thinking that tonkor should at least some more self damage than it currently is, being able to blow away heavy enemies without a scratch doesn't make sense, imho.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree with this.

[shyguyk]

1 minute ago, -dicht.Amducias- said:

Yes because the shockwave is magically missing his head and only targeting his torso.. alright.. sounds legit

Why should it magically target his head instead? Rest of the body is a much larger target, and the grineer heads in particular are for the most part only accessable from the front.

[-dicht.Amducias-]

2 minutes ago, shyguyk said:

Why should it magically target his head instead? Rest of the body is a much larger target, and the grineer heads in particular are for the most part only accessable from the front.

A shockwave hits the whole body it crushes the legs, the torso and the head,  theoretically a launcher should get every @(*()$ body part multiplier possible in that game.. 

 

Edited May 15, 2016 by -dicht.Amducias-

[YasaiTsume]

3 minutes ago, -dicht.Amducias- said:

Yes because the shockwave is magically missing his head and only targeting his torso.. alright.. sounds legit

My point is, if an explosive is working as it should and does collateral damage, Body multipliers wouldn't even make sense as it just hits the entire body.

I can claim it was a headshot, torso shot, leg shot, crotch shot, anything I want, because said target is already a pile of meat on the floor. 

They can give Explosives say, + 20% additional damage for each body part caught in the blast radius (up to a 100% bonus damage),

but giving an explosive weapon headshot mechanics? It's a little too much. 

[shyguyk]

5 minutes ago, -dicht.Amducias- said:

A shockwave hits the whole body it crushes the legs, the torso and the head,  theoretically a launcher should get every @(*()$ body part multiplier possible in that game.. 

 

Yea, and they should be averaged, not additive.

[Icebreccer]

6 hours ago, CMcDrake said:

 The small clip size , the bouncy nades , sh1ty aim etc does balance this launcher.

You must be really terrible in this game if you think those balance the weapon. My god just no.

Yes I like the Tonkor, I think it's a fun weapon to use and I've spent lots of Forma on mine. But the thing is that it blows every other gun in the game out of the water. It's mindless and simply the easiest gun to use. It's also easy and cheap to acquire. It definitely needs a rebalance where it still keeps its fun factor, but should also be made to require a certain degree of skill to use effectively. So yeah a "nerf" in this case would be most welcome.

Edited May 15, 2016 by Judqment8

[CaliburxZero]

My two cents is that i find it depressing on the idea that people are this gung-ho to nerf anything in general (and for the record I do agree that the tonkor needs a MR increase and perhaps a smaller nerf) but alot of mods and weapons that are really cool and deserve to be buffed... DO NOT get the same level of zeal and attention by the community to bring them in line.

Ladies and Gentlemen, I understand the concern but at the end of the day... whether or not we use any of the items in question, buff or nerf... just remember that we are talking about the "fun factor" of ourselves and everyone else who plays the game.  I feel as a community, YES, nerfing is sometimes necessary and definitely important however...  Given how UNGODLY SLOW this game/DE is with buffing very obviously cool but weak abilities, weapons, and arguably some frames... we should be more concerned with increasing said fun factor for those less fortunate items.

At the end of the day, and of course this is up for debate, I think more people would be happy for buffing items that are clearly pathetically weak for what they are and should be (Machetes, utility mods such as thunderbolt, the Stradavar to name a few) then nerfing other things.  In a way, its disappointing to see what i feel should be inverted levels of interest but like i said, just my two cents/opinion.

[EvilChaosKnight]

I'd honestly love to use Penta or Ogris but they are a lot better at killing me than at killing enemies on high levels. I mean sortie 1 (lvl 60) guys can often take 1 or 2 blasts and survive (not talking about heavies). How many explosions can my frames survive? Well, with fully modded Ogris so far - 0.

[DeadlyPeanutt]

tonkor is fine. 

the 'nerf brigade' will always be with us. they always have a frame/weapon/node or mission they hate. some people HAVE to hate something. some people feel they have to tell others that what they're enjoying is bad for them.  ignore them.  

if one weapon/frame/node is nerfed, they move on to the next on their list.  it's endless. 

again, tonkor is fine: a fun weapon that many players enjoy. 

Edited May 16, 2016 by DeadlyPeanutt

[shyguyk]

41 minutes ago, DeadlyPeanutt said:

tonkor is fine. 

the 'nerf brigade' will always be with us. they always have a frame/weapon/node or mission they hate. some people HAVE to hate something. some people feel they have to tell others that what they're enjoying is bad for them.  ignore them.  

if one weapon/frame/node is nerfed, they move on to the next on their list.  it's endless. 

again, tonkor is fine: a fun weapon that many players enjoy. 

We saw that meta complaint thread get locked. Don't bring it in here.

Edit: can a mod look at this guy? He keeps going on about a "nerf brigade" in multiple different threads while refusing to add to the discussion.

Edited May 16, 2016 by shyguyk

[marshmellory]

the problem is not with the tonkor, but rather with most other weapons. either buff other weapons so they stand a chance in the "endgame" or fix the ridiculous enemy scaling so everything has a chance.

[DeadlyBard676]

i once made a suggestion for the tonkor that instead of reducing it's damage or blast radius, make it so while you still only take 50 damage the max damage it is capable of is translated into concussive force to launch you and/or teammates, meaning if you have it modded for 100 billion damage you(and/or teammates) get sent flying by that amount of force. The weapons player affecting radius would also be amped up as well. 

[Currilicious]

6 hours ago, CaliburxZero said:

My two cents is that i find it depressing on the idea that people are this gung-ho to nerf anything in general (and for the record I do agree that the tonkor needs a MR increase and perhaps a smaller nerf) but alot of mods and weapons that are really cool and deserve to be buffed... DO NOT get the same level of zeal and attention by the community to bring them in line.

Ladies and Gentlemen, I understand the concern but at the end of the day... whether or not we use any of the items in question, buff or nerf... just remember that we are talking about the "fun factor" of ourselves and everyone else who plays the game.  I feel as a community, YES, nerfing is sometimes necessary and definitely important however...  Given how UNGODLY SLOW this game/DE is with buffing very obviously cool but weak abilities, weapons, and arguably some frames... we should be more concerned with increasing said fun factor for those less fortunate items.

At the end of the day, and of course this is up for debate, I think more people would be happy for buffing items that are clearly pathetically weak for what they are and should be (Machetes, utility mods such as thunderbolt, the Stradavar to name a few) then nerfing other things.  In a way, its disappointing to see what i feel should be inverted levels of interest but like i said, just my two cents/opinion.

I know right.

I have a theory on this. Some people aren't actually playing the game anymore but just hang around forums role-playing game developers. Now, that sounds harmless enough but for the awful stench these zombies are making, when they regurgitate drivel derived from facts they have no clue about. Lets not even go into the self-entitled and self-righteous chest thumping often performed from a pedestal built with foul excrement, and other unholy material.

It's annoyingly obnoxious, it's aggravatingly obtuse, and most unfortunate of all, it stinks.

Edited May 16, 2016 by Currilicious

[Goodwill]

I hope they don't nerf the Tonkor. Mate of mine convinced me to craft it, telling me how OP it was and how easy is is to buy the BP from the market and craft it. If they nerf it, then I won't have my easy farming weapon. Keep the Tonkor the way it is so I have an easier time with the game please.

[ComfyOlivia]

9 hours ago, ShadowFel said:

The problem is, the Tonkor (and the Synoid) DO harm other players.  They harm the enjoyment of any other player in the squad, because they make that player feel redundant.  I enjoy most of the game modes in Warframe (except sometimes Defense, but hey, everybody has something), but that enjoyment vanishes if I'm on a team with someone using one of those 2 weapons.  I've used both, but out of consideration for other players, I tend to avoid using them because, like a Bladestorm Ash or an EB Excalibur, it ruins the game for everyone else in the squad (I'd also appreciate the grating sounds of Exalted Blade being changed, but you can't have everything you want).  Sure, the person using them often is having some fun, but the 3 other people are either thinking "I feel inferior, I need to get one of those" or "wake me up when the mission's over, because I'm obviously not needed".  

The problem with these 2 weapons is that they have the ability to apply damage as high as heavyweights like the Sancti Tigris, or Hek, or Soma Prime, or Boltor Prime, or Opticor, but unlike those they barely need to be aimed (I've used the Tonkor enough to say that its accuracy is not near as much of a problem as people claim it is), and can apply that damage over a large area.  And they have essentially no downside.  

Yes, the real problem in this game is that enemies tend to scale out of control, which makes a lot of weapons less effective when levels get high, and that for many people the actual gameplay has become lackluster and they prefer to speed run through it, but the Tonkor and Synoid Simulor are band-aids to those problems, and until the band-aids are removed, the problems can be ignored by saying "just use a better weapon like the Tonkor".  I'd much rather see the Tonkor and the Synoid get nerfed into the ground, and scaling fixed so that all weapons are more usable, than the current state of affairs continuing to exist because people don't want to see their favorite weapon get taken down.  And the Tonkor and Synoid getting nerfed might be the wake-up call some people need to realize that they aren't enjoying the game anymore, and need to move on.

I love using the Synoid, but I hate the effect it has on every other weapon.  I feel inconsiderate every time I bring it into a mission.  I don't enjoy using the Tonkor because it's so good it's boring.  It makes the more interesting weapons feel pointless, because why work for those headshots with a bow or a sniper when you can just blast their entire body into oblivion?  Why go stealthy when you can just fire Grenades around the room and wipe everyone out before they can think "alarm"?  The fact that people make Zephyr builds AROUND the Tonkor, and Mirage builds AROUND the Synoid are signs that these weapons are causing a problem.  The warframe should always be the most valuable part of the build, but in the case of these weapons, the warframe is just a tool to make the weapon better.

"The problem is, the Tonkor (and the Synoid) DO harm other players.  They harm the enjoyment of any other player in the squad, because they make that player feel redundant.  I enjoy most of the game modes in Warframe (except sometimes Defense, but hey, everybody has something), but that enjoyment vanishes if I'm on a team with someone using one of those 2 weapons.  I've used both, but out of consideration for other players, I tend to avoid using them because, like a Bladestorm Ash or an EB Excalibur, it ruins the game for everyone else in the squad (I'd also appreciate the grating sounds of Exalted Blade being changed, but you can't have everything you want).  Sure, the person using them often is having some fun, but the 3 other people are either thinking "I feel inferior, I need to get one of those" or "wake me up when the mission's over, because I'm obviously not needed"."

But how often do you actually run into people using these weapons? Let me say before I go any further, I'm not trying to discount yours or anyone else's experiences.

I have played Warframe for about 49 hours in the last 2 weeks. Nearly 3 and a half hours a day. I have noticed exactly 2 people using Tonkors and 0 using the Synoid Simulor in the last two weeks. Now, I am a bit higher in MR myself, and I don't mean to brag, but I can generally compete with the average player wielding a tonkor with any general loadout I bring. Thus, someone using a strong weapon doesn't normally catch my attention, so I may have missed some people. Nevertheless, even quadrupling the number I saw makes for about 8 total people in 49 hours of missions (average missions would last for about 10 minutes, some closer to an hour, some closer to 5 minutes).

So, yes, for the average player, ending up in a party with a person using one of these weapons can make the particular mission boring. However, running into these players isn't incredibly frequent, and most randomly matched missions will not last past 10 minutes. Similar story with people who show up with their crazy frame builds.

In the end, with enough time and experience in the game, running into these people will turn out to not be such a big deal. However, sorry to say, but falling to the "Well I'm Not Needed" category is more of an attitude problem. Assuming you'd be able to fight the enemies normally, you can be useful in really any mission that takes more than a couple of minutes to complete. These players are not omniscient or god or something. They can't be everywhere at once. Warframe is a game of roles. Just because you didn't get the most damage or most kills doesn't mean you weren't useful. When I play as Trin, I almost never have the most kills or damage, but without my help, the missions would have ended a whole lot quicker. If you don't like that sort of role, get a DPS frame and out-DPS everyone else.

Essentially, don't think of things as "This person has X Weapon/Frame, I'm useless". Think in the style of "This person has X Weapon/Frame, I'm going to kick their asses at their own game while still performing my role"

 

"The problem with these 2 weapons is that they have the ability to apply damage as high as heavyweights like the Sancti Tigris, or Hek, or Soma Prime, or Boltor Prime, or Opticor, but unlike those they barely need to be aimed (I've used the Tonkor enough to say that its accuracy is not near as much of a problem as people claim it is), and can apply that damage over a large area.  And they have essentially no downside."

I think Devoid's post on the downsides describe the way I feel on the Tonkor:

10 hours ago, (PS4)IIIDevoidIII said:

Faster reload would mean a reduced damage output. It's a drawback, not one that can't be mitigated, but it's foolish to deny it. If the clip held 20 grenades, you'd see how that'd be an issue.

Bouncy grenades is the largest drawback this weapon has. It practically qualifies the weapon as being most useful against crowds of enemies instead of single target. The weapon is inaccurate, so long range is out in most scenarios, meaning single target kills are mostly run into their face and fire down their throats. If you miss your target, the grenade tends to bounce away. It may snag a couple of guys you didn't intend to hit, but it's nothing like the Penta, or Ogris, or Castanas, in that if you miss your intended target, you cannot rely on explosion damage or a secondary fire to kill. The only way to mitigate this is with Adhesive Blast, which then adds a timer when impacting the enemy instead of an immediate explosion, forcing another drawback.

Yes, the weapon is imbalanced, but the drawbacks shouldn't be trivialized as much as you are making it out to be.

 

Reduce the radius of the blast in which the Tonkor deals full damage, and apply a ragdoll toward the center of the radius. That's how I'd balance it out.

The Simulor is pretty silly. I'll give you that. Biggest downside is how much of a borefest it is for most players.

 

"Yes, the real problem in this game is that enemies tend to scale out of control, which makes a lot of weapons less effective when levels get high, and that for many people the actual gameplay has become lackluster and they prefer to speed run through it, but the Tonkor and Synoid Simulor are band-aids to those problems, and until the band-aids are removed, the problems can be ignored by saying "just use a better weapon like the Tonkor".  I'd much rather see the Tonkor and the Synoid get nerfed into the ground, and scaling fixed so that all weapons are more usable, than the current state of affairs continuing to exist because people don't want to see their favorite weapon get taken down.  And the Tonkor and Synoid getting nerfed might be the wake-up call some people need to realize that they aren't enjoying the game anymore, and need to move on."

You're making the situation out to be that the only real solution is to nerf both weapons to THEN balance the rest of the weapons.

 

"the Tonkor and Synoid Simulor are band-aids to those problems, and until the band-aids are removed, the problems can be ignored by saying "just use a better weapon like the Tonkor".'

Sorry, but this is both ignorant and a really bad attempt at a metaphor. A better way of saying it would be that they are like a bundle of sticks keeping a broken neck in place until people can actually go in with a plan and fix the problem. The issue is that if they don't have some sort of plan and something they can put in place once the sticks are gone, the person has about a 90% chance of either dying or being paralyzed for the rest of their life. Same applies here. As has been made obvious in the past, when DE just starts handing out nerfs without implementing a more permanent solution to the larger issue, they've made a huge mistake (Trinity L.O.S. changes that were reverted in the very next patch after implementation). Fixing this particular issue is going to take MONTHS of reworking and balancing weapons, and maybe even making changes to the way enemies work. Those fixes, reworks, and balances need to happen before we can just start throwing stat reductions around. If not, there's going to be a disconnect, and lots of people are going to get incredibly pissed off with DE, as they have every single time in the past.

 

"The fact that people make Zephyr builds AROUND the Tonkor, and Mirage builds AROUND the Synoid are signs that these weapons are causing a problem.  The warframe should always be the most valuable part of the build, but in the case of these weapons, the warframe is just a tool to make the weapon better."

 

Why? Why does the Warframe have to be the centerpiece of the build? Why can't people have the freedom to make their builds about their weapons? I don't understand when there are entire abilities and even mutliple frames dedicated to making it easier to kill enemies with your weapons? Zephyr's augment that people are building for the Tonkor it literally about being able to shoot things more quickly. Mirage's Hall of Mirrors is literally exclusive to making your weapons more effective. Hell, they took away the old mechanic of multiple Prisms being thrown out with Hall of Mirrors within a week of the frame's release. The ability was obviously not supposed to be about making abilities more effective. Why is it that your view is the fact here? DE designed this game with the community's creativity and ability to adapt in mind. Making builds exclusively about the Warframe itself counter-acts that. 

[HAYABU5A]

tonkor = 'noob tube'

but hey , every game has a noobtube right

we just have to accept there will always a training wheels warframe and weapon (lol remember dmg 1.0 acrid)

admittedly no self dmg to one weapon of an entire class of aoe weapons is a new low

[notlamprey]

I don't think Tonkor needs to be changed at all.

Hek, I don't even use it. There are strictly better weapons out there that are easier to use, particularly in conjunction with certain frames and builds. The bottom line for me is that Tonkor is objectively inferior to a fair number of weapons out there, and the "jet stream tonkor" falls into exactly the same place against other loadouts.

It's certainly easy to criticize, but I think it's just fine the way it is. Tonkor is a first-order-optimal, but Warframe offers plenty of higher-power options that are just as easy to build and use.

[Riot_Inducer]

Ok, the no self-damage of the Tonkor is certainly part of it's popularity but lets not pretend that alone is what makes it OP. I guarantee you if every other AoE weapon was changed to have the low/negligable self-damage of the Tonkor, that people would still choose the Tonkor 9 times out of 10 over other weapons. And that is because the Tonkor regardless of anything else is still one of, if not the, most powerful AoE weapons in the game by a fair margin.

The Tonkor only deals about 8% less base damage than the Penta yet it has beastly critical stats and can further multiply that by taking advantage of the fact that AoE attacks count as headshots for some reason. I mean seriously were this any other weapon category would this even be a question? If the Soma Prime had come out and had 50 base damage in addition to its signature crit stats would people be there defending it saying it's balanced because it has a wind up or a long reload time? 

[Magneu]

1 hour ago, Currilicious said:

I know right.

I have a theory on this. Some people aren't actually playing the game anymore but just hang around forums role-playing game developers. Now, that sounds harmless enough but for the awful stench these zombies are making, when they regurgitate drivel derived from facts they have no clue about. Lets not even go into the self-entitled and self-righteous chest thumping often performed from a pedestal built with foul excrement, and other unholy material.

It's annoyingly obnoxious, it's aggravatingly obtuse, and most unfortunate of all, it stinks.

Alright, let's calm down with the insults, k? Maybe some people are thinking outside of the box with long-term game balance/health and implications, instead of simply rolling through yet another top-tier mission with nary a care in the world?

My personal game-time per week is still substantial, even on a short, location induced hiatus. Does my opinion suddenly become invalid if I don't play "x" hours per week? To say nothing of my even more substantial total hours logged...

Your post contributed exactly nothing to this discussion but personal attacks. How very constructive.

Edited May 16, 2016 by Magneu

[Rankii]

18 hours ago, Djenai said:

Sounds like somebody is afraid of losing his easy-mode crutch...

Excal? I thought this was a tonkor thread...

[ReshyShira]

20 hours ago, IceColdHawk said:

The only problem i see is it's lack of self-damage compared to other launchers. That's all. Not the damage itself.

Except with self-damage the small bouncy grenades will end up killing you all the time.  Seriously, count how many times you step on your own grenades when you're not completely stationary and you realize how it would make the weapon impossible to use.

 

It's also DE, if they touch a weapon to try and nerf it they'll destroy it and then the Tonkor will be bad for everyone.  Maybe that's the intent of the people on this forum is not to make a balanced weapon, but to make sure the Tonkor is never used.  Because from what I have seen the self-damage suggestions will only make an incredibly fickle and inaccurate weapon an even larger hazard to use.

Edited May 16, 2016 by ReshyShira

[CaliburxZero]

10 hours ago, Currilicious said:

I know right.

I have a theory on this. Some people aren't actually playing the game anymore but just hang around forums role-playing game developers. Now, that sounds harmless enough but for the awful stench these zombies are making, when they regurgitate drivel derived from facts they have no clue about. Lets not even go into the self-entitled and self-righteous chest thumping often performed from a pedestal built with foul excrement, and other unholy material.

It's annoyingly obnoxious, it's aggravatingly obtuse, and most unfortunate of all, it stinks.

While I can agree to an extent, the problem is trying to devalue someone's opinion on this idea is very... hard.  You can't prove they aren't really playing the game.  And while its very annoying for whatever reason they say it, they do deserve to have a say.  

We are more or less equals here.  Trying to generalize can turn toxic very fast, so even if we feel that way... its just best to keep it to ourselves and tune them out as best as possible while pushing for what we feel is right.

[Chipputer]

9 hours ago, CoRRh said:

But how often do you actually run into people using these weapons?

All. The. Time.

It's more common for me to run into a party of 3 others using a combination of SySim and Tonkor than it is for me to run into anything else. If I do, they're low MR or they're leveling weapons, or a weapon just got released (Stradavar).

I sometimes feel like the only MR21 who religiously uses bows.