Vauban's building requirements are too high [Reply from DE]

[kszaso]

a smart person would of been doing nitain alerts anyways for clan projects

 

[KillingDyl]

Remember the rule about the vocal minority on the internet. The most vocal part of any forum regarding any issues are the ones that don't agree with the topic at hand. Anyone who is okay with the crafting cost are generally silent because it doesn't concern them to input their opinion into the rage-fest.

[(XBOX)Rey Za BurreI]

3 minutes ago, Reitrahc said:

Then stop complaining that you have to actually do something to get what you want. If it's not worth the money and it's not worth your time just don't get it. If it's worth your time spend your time getting it. If it's worth your money spend your money getting it. It's that simple.

Not the point. Pretty sure I was talking about Nitain. Try again. 

Edited May 19, 2016 by (XB1)Rey Za BurreI

[Tesseract7777]

I completely agree. To be quite honest the crafting components are no big deal if you are a veteran or non-casual. And if you are a whale you can just buy. The truth is the only people who get "screwed" are the really casual players. But Warframe has never made it easy for casual players to get rare gear. Because for an f2p model to work, it has to be difficult enough for stuff to get that bypassing it with money feels like a worthwhile expenditure to the whales, or the games won't survive. The vast majority of games income comes from whales (rich players who spend a lot of money). 

 

The people complaining usual are more casual and are saying "if i can only play an hour or so a day, how am I suppose to get it anytime soon???!!!!". And the answer is, you are NOT supposed to get the latest super rare prime thing that has Prime Access package for it without some actual grinding or the whales wouldn't support the game. I intend to buy PA this time, but without buying PA once before and almost never buying platinum, I have been able to get anything I really want if I work for it  and put in the time. And the same thing is with Vauban Prime -- if I wasn't going to buy him this time I COULD get him eventually withotu spending anything. 

 

That is perfectly fair to me. For F2P model to work most fairly is how it works now. It's so funny for people to complain so much about one of the fairest models -- you can get anything you want without money, but it takes a lot of grinding. You bypass wait/grind walls with money. This is about as fair as F2P game can get. I really don't see the problem. Seems like most of the complaining is just casual players who think they should basically be able to get the latest prime stuff for almost no effort at all... ridiculous. 

Edited May 19, 2016 by Tesseract7777

[Get_Singed]

4 minutes ago, (XB1)Rey Za BurreI said:

Not the point. Try again. 

That is the point. You're salty that you can't have what you want right now. Instead of complaining about Nitain mission frequencies, you COULD have simply done Nitain missions when you didn't need Nitain and you wouldn't have anything to complain about. Now you don't have Nitain, don't want to spend the time to get Nitain, and don't want to spend the money on the frame, but still expect to be able to get it.

And you edited in the Nitain line after I said that, so don't try to act like you were talking about Nitain when you were mentioning how much $$$ you spend on games.

Edited May 19, 2016 by Reitrahc

[Mak_Gohae]

You are getting stuff for free, man.

[Cloverdew]

Most of players waste their time on Ceres and Void, thats why they are complain about resources not dropping from mobs there.

[(XBOX)Rey Za BurreI]

6 minutes ago, Reitrahc said:

That is the point. You're salty that you can't have what you want right now. Instead of complaining about Nitain mission frequencies, you COULD have simply done Nitain missions when you didn't need Nitain and you wouldn't have anything to complain about. Now you don't have Nitain, don't want to spend the time to get Nitain, and don't want to spend the money on the frame, but still expect to be able to get it.

Youre the one that brought up purchasing prime access. My problem is with the Nitian alert drops. Not whether or not I want to buy an item or farm an item. The nitain alert drops 4 times a day which should be higher, since everyone is not able to access Warframe during certain parts of the day. If I'm not able to play the game during certain parts of the day, htf am I going to be able to do Nitain missions? How am I going to be mad I didn't do the missions if I was never able to? Idiot.

Edited May 19, 2016 by (XB1)Rey Za BurreI

[Liminal]

Just now, TheBrsrkr said:

The power farmers came first with corrupted mods. That the players asked for. They grinded and grinded and grinded, and there was nothing to do with their loot. So the standard of grinding is raised to suit the grinding they have done. You do not balance for the middle of a spectrum,  you balance for the top. And make no mistake, less aggravating grind will only lead to less power farmers because it will be even easier for the power farmers to get ridiculous amounts of loot, which doesn't solve anything. Players asked for more powerful weapons and frames, they got more powerful weapons and frames. Players asked for easier grind, they got it. But now the pendulum swings back, and DE needs to do something about all the grind they have grinded, and suddenly it's a problem? No. Too late. 

Did people come to these very forums to talk about the future of the game as this trend continued? Yes! Yes they did. What were they met with? Complaints. Whine. Vitriol. Nothing but piles and piles of people incessantly screaming that things were just fine the way they were, just as they do now. When Mesa was lootbotting the entire level, everything was fine. When Viver and EGate farming was rampant in the game, everything was fine. When Saryn could speed run through a level hitting nothing but 4 and coptering through maps, everything was fine. When Hydroid and Nekros were the only ones able to participate in farming matches, everything was fine. Well, now that the game has moved up to the spot where you're expected to do all of the things you ended up doing over and over and over before, everything should be fine. This is what the playerbase did. This is what the playerbase asked for. Let it not be said that DE does not listen to what its player base wants. 

You do realize that having nothing to do but get more stuff that lets you grind more for more stuff that (etc etc) is a design issue, right? That's the developers' fault. There will always be farmers, you either design around it or "balance from the top" and lose or at least piss off all the casual players (which is kind of what's going on here). Again, the developer is the only one who can make a game not-grindy, no the players.

You gave in to the demands of some players? That's on you too. As a developer you need to understand your players, not just do what they post on the forums. The playerbase is not a hive mind, they don't all ask for a thing, they don't all welcome or hate something as a group. Understanding the customer isn't always doing what they (or more appropriately "some of them") say, but what you know is best for both them and for your business. For both, not for one or the other.

If there's a problem with your product, you only have yourself to blame. If you cannot properly process and filter the feedback you are given, it's your fault too. If your game lacks a clear direction, don't blame the customer.

The players are not one mind, the forums are not all of the players, and if League of Legends stats apply, the forums are just a 10% of the playerbase, with the active users being a lot less than that and the most vocal ones being even less. But in the hypothetical scenario that 100% of the players agree on something, they still cannot do change anything, so the devs better get their hands on it.

I hate analogies but this is a simple one: if half the class is telling their teacher to jump out of the window while the other half says not to, and the teacher decides to jump out, the resulting broken leg is the teacher's fault for not knowing better.

9 minutes ago, TheBrsrkr said:

Players asked for more powerful weapons and frames, they got more powerful weapons and frames.

Did people come to these very forums to talk about the future of the game as this trend continued? Yes! Yes they did. What were they met with? Complaints. Whine. Vitriol. Nothing but piles and piles of people incessantly screaming that things were just fine the way they were, just as they do now.

The playerbase are not the Zerg. There was no unanimous demand for more power, there were no unanimous complaints or whining.

11 minutes ago, TheBrsrkr said:

 When Mesa was lootbotting the entire level, everything was fine. When Viver and EGate farming was rampant in the game, everything was fine. When Saryn could speed run through a level hitting nothing but 4 and coptering through maps, everything was fine. When Hydroid and Nekros were the only ones able to participate in farming matches, everything was fine.

False, a lot of people complained about all those things.

11 minutes ago, TheBrsrkr said:

Players asked for easier grind, they got it.

And that's debatable. Some things got better (Hydroid or Inaros for example) others didn't (arbitrary gating like Argon or Nitain, guns that required guns to craft).

[Get_Singed]

3 minutes ago, (XB1)Rey Za BurreI said:

Youre the one that brought up purchasing prime access. My problem is with the Nitian alert drops. Not whether or not I want to buy an item or farm an item. The nitain alert drops 4 times a day which should be higher, since everyone is not able to access Warframe during certain parts of the day. If I'm not able to play the game during certain parts of the day, htf am I going to be able to do Nitain missions? Explain to me.

I don't have to. Your statement is false. Or are you REALLY going to try to tell me that in all the time you've spent playing Warframe, you haven't seen 20 Nitain missions go by that you didn't complete? That's your fault. If you did those missions, you wouldn't have to grind for Nitain. Because you ignored those missions, you now have to grind for Nitain, and you're salty over that like most of the community is. Stop feeling so entitled. It's not like owning Vauban Prime is your god given right.

[Liminal]

27 minutes ago, torint_man said:

But you don't need Vauban right this second. You want Vauban right this second. (...)

tl;dr while the crafting component situation sucks, it's nothing that can't be overcome by putting some time into getting the parts. There has to be something to incentivise buying Prime Access or nobody would if it was so easy to acquire without it

No, I'd like to have it before the next prime access comes out, but unlike the previous 3 years, that would require me to change my game experience and actively farm, which is not what I signed up for. If I don't it'll simply take forever, and whatever is released in the meantime will be added up to the stuff I have to farm for.

And I've bought may Prime Access packs (Nyx, Nova, Volt, and Saryn), but I do not reward DE with money when they do something I think is wrong (this, Sibear, overpriced Knux research), so at least for some people, increasing the resource cost is actually counterproductive.

[The_One_True_Morty]

can we all just keep in mind some people go months with only getting one piece of vauban so his primed version isn't to difficult in comparison.

[-DragonOfTheWest-]

See's Vauban Prime is here Sweet!            Falls asleep 13 hours later mid way through a T3 Sab whilst in a Skype call

 

#BoobenLife

Edited May 19, 2016 by williamsos10
Is this real life?

[Kevyne_Kicklighter]

45 minutes ago, Tesseract7777 said:

I completely agree. To be quite honest the crafting components are no big deal if you are a veteran or non-casual. And if you are a whale you can just buy. The truth is the only people who get "screwed" are the really casual players.

But they know they're casual, and play accordingly.

It's this "I want everything he got" without spending the time to get it, that is the problem.

It's simply play more = get more goods.

[TheBrsrkr]

Just now, The_Doc said:

You do realize that having nothing to do but get more stuff that lets you grind more for more stuff that (etc etc) is a design issue, right? That's the developers' fault. 

It's the developer's fault that they gave you what you asked for. Right. 

 

1 minute ago, The_Doc said:

. There will always be farmers, you either design around it or "balance from the top" and lose or at least piss off all the casual players (which is kind of what's going on here). Again, the developer is the only one who can make a game not-grindy, no the players.

If you provide for the casual players, the hardcore players will get the content at a much, much faster rate. This leaves little incentive NOT to be a hardcore farmer since it provides additional benefits for zero risk. And the content gets burned through in a matter of days, until there is none left. 

The developers provide for what the players ask for. Trying to blame the whole thing on them when the playerbase at large is who asked for it in the first place is nothing short of dishonesty. The content was made to order. 

6 minutes ago, The_Doc said:

.You gave in to the demands of some players? That's on you too. As a developer you need to understand your players, not just do what they post on the forums. The playerbase is not a hive mind, they don't all ask for a thing, they don't all welcome or hate something as a group. Understanding the customer isn't always doing what they (or more appropriately "some of them") say, but what you know is best for both them and for your business. For both, not for one or the other.

 

You heard it here first, folks. When you're designing a game, don't give the people what they want, give them what you think they want. And the player base does not all ask for one thing, but you can see certain trends from teh kind of feedback you get. And what did the player base say? Everything is fine. Don't nerf anything. Don't change the systems because they are fine as is. We want to grind more, so we need more powerful frames.  This is not to be ignored. DE is not full of mind readers and fortune tellers. It's full of people. People that have to make tough calls all the time. People who don't know what their playerbase will want in the next year. People who have to spin 30 plates at once while the players keep adding more. What seems like a good decision cam have drastic effects no one can predict more than a year down the line. Hindsight is perfect. 

 

19 minutes ago, The_Doc said:

.If there's a problem with your product, you only have yourself to blame. If you cannot properly process and filter the feedback you are given, it's your fault too. If your game lacks a clear direction, don't blame the customer.

This removes all agency from the players. It's easy to point fingers when you're the player. Sure, you didn't tell them to make the crafting requirements that high. However, everything else you asked for led to this result. "They should have seen that coming" is easy to say after it happens, but I doubt many people here thought it would happen  before it did. 

 

23 minutes ago, The_Doc said:

.The players are not one mind, the forums are not all of the players, and if League of Legends stats apply, the forums are just a 10% of the playerbase, with the active users being a lot less than that and the most vocal ones being even less. 

Does this make their feedback less valid? Does it give DE a better idea of what anyone wants? 10% of the forums being active simply means that 90% of the players don't care enough to bother giving their opinion. 

 

26 minutes ago, The_Doc said:

one: if half the class is telling their teacher to jump out of the window while the other half says not to, and the teacher decides to jump out, the resulting broken leg is the teacher's fault for not knowing better.

Horrible comparison. At the end of the day, whether the student learns anything or not, a teacher gets paid by the board, not the students. This would result in nothing but a lot of suspensions.  A developer, however, HAS to take the player base into account, because it's the players that pay you for giving them what they want. 

 

32 minutes ago, The_Doc said:

The playerbase are not the Zerg. There was no unanimous demand for more power, there were no unanimous complaints or whining.

Why does it have to be unanimous? Look now to the feedback section and take a look at any of the threads there. Tell me which of them want to address the issue of meta farming. Which address the rampant power creep. Which address the always on and overbearing nature of abilities and the energy system. Now in those threads, I'd like you to count how many different posters have a post that amounts to "it's fine as it is" or "don't like it don't use it" or something along those lines. I can guarantee you'll see a lot more of those comments than those about fixing the actual problems. 

 

38 minutes ago, The_Doc said:

.And that's debatable. Some things got better (Hydroid or Inaros for example) others didn't (arbitrary gating like Argon or Nitain, guns that required guns to craft).

 Those are reactions to the underlying problems caused by the past and present farming methods. 

[(PSN)Quil_Nye]

On ‎5‎/‎17‎/‎2016 at 1:37 PM, (PS4)Arkel-99 said:

I just got the blueprint which costs 5 Nitain Extract

I can kinda understand the 5 Nitain for the blueprint. 

The chassis of Vauban Prime however is just ridiculous. A friend of mine sent me a picture of it, the costs are the following:

14.000 Oxium

13.000 Alloy Plate

2 Argon Crystal

5 Nitain Extract

What was DE even thinking..?

Edit: Vauban Prime will also cost 20 Nitain Extract in total so have fun looking 24/7 at your screen waiting for an Nitain alert to pop up :)

 

DE Reply: 

 

People have been able to stockpile Nitain Extract for months prior to release of the warframe.   How is it De's fault that they don't stockpile?  I stock pile all resources because I know eventually I will need them for something.  Every Nitain alert I see I go do.  I have so much Nitain its not even funny.   I will admit the Oxium is a bit high but even that I was prepaired for.   This welfare state of mind is insane I tell you.

[Zaods]

48 minutes ago, illnevermax said:

can we all just keep in mind some people go months with only getting one piece of vauban so his primed version isn't to difficult in comparison.

normal vauban is not hard nor difficult it just takes time and that's very different it took me a couple of month to get vauban and of course it takes more than that to some people but what people saying "is harder the get normal vauban still" are not understanding is that in those 2 months i took to get vauban all i had to do was keep an eye on the alerts i could do whatever i wanted i could farm whatever i wanted i could spend hours in my liset teabagging my kubrow if i wanted to and the alerts are easy and take 5 mins to do is not hard.

Vauban prime on the other hand, not even talking about the oxium which some old playes have stockpiled i myself almost have enough and i don't really do oxium missions often and nitain which people have stockpiled cause everything needs it at this point, is just long tedious farm. With the ridiculos drop rates it has and being placed in t4d rot c and t3s rot c depending on my luck it might take weeks just to get those drops and my point is normal vauban took me months but months of doing what i wanted and have fun vauban prime will take weeks in tedious missions that will absorb all my time on warframe. You cannot compare the two things.

Edited May 19, 2016 by Zaods

[Liminal]

31 minutes ago, TheBrsrkr said:

It's the developer's fault that they gave you what you asked for. Right. 

If you provide for the casual players, the hardcore players will get the content at a much, much faster rate. This leaves little incentive NOT to be a hardcore farmer since it provides additional benefits for zero risk. And the content gets burned through in a matter of days, until there is none left. 

The developers provide for what the players ask for. Trying to blame the whole thing on them when the playerbase at large is who asked for it in the first place is nothing short of dishonesty. The content was made to order. 

You heard it here first, folks. When you're designing a game, don't give the people what they want, give them what you think they want. And the player base does not all ask for one thing, but you can see certain trends from teh kind of feedback you get. And what did the player base say? Everything is fine. Don't nerf anything. Don't change the systems because they are fine as is. We want to grind more, so we need more powerful frames.  This is not to be ignored. DE is not full of mind readers and fortune tellers. It's full of people. People that have to make tough calls all the time. People who don't know what their playerbase will want in the next year. People who have to spin 30 plates at once while the players keep adding more. What seems like a good decision cam have drastic effects no one can predict more than a year down the line. Hindsight is perfect. 

This removes all agency from the players. It's easy to point fingers when you're the player. Sure, you didn't tell them to make the crafting requirements that high. However, everything else you asked for led to this result. "They should have seen that coming" is easy to say after it happens, but I doubt many people here thought it would happen  before it did. 

Does this make their feedback less valid? Does it give DE a better idea of what anyone wants? 10% of the forums being active simply means that 90% of the players don't care enough to bother giving their opinion. 

Horrible comparison. At the end of the day, whether the student learns anything or not, a teacher gets paid by the board, not the students. This would result in nothing but a lot of suspensions.  A developer, however, HAS to take the player base into account, because it's the players that pay you for giving them what they want. 

Why does it have to be unanimous? Look now to the feedback section and take a look at any of the threads there. Tell me which of them want to address the issue of meta farming. Which address the rampant power creep. Which address the always on and overbearing nature of abilities and the energy system. Now in those threads, I'd like you to count how many different posters have a post that amounts to "it's fine as it is" or "don't like it don't use it" or something along those lines. I can guarantee you'll see a lot more of those comments than those about fixing the actual problems. 

 Those are reactions to the underlying problems caused by the past and present farming methods. 

A less grindy game doesn't need to be a game in which you get everything quickly, just look at all those incredibly popular games with barely any progression. I won't say what WF would exactly need, I'm not perfect and it's the subject for another thread, but having an objective other than "grind for stuff to grind better" would help. They dug themselves into this hole.

The analogy was not about getting paid, it was about listening to opinions but knowing what what's best: the final action is always the teacher's responsibility and nobody else's. Just like picking what feedback is healthy for the game.

You talk about removing agency from the players when there is actually none. It's not a game designed by the players. Players can have their voices heard, but at the end of the day then ones implementing good or bad design choices in their game are the developers, and if they pick the bad ones, it's their fault, nobody forced them to do that. If they couldn't tell that something players asked for was a bad idea, it's on them as well. Nobody has a gun to their heads. That we know of.

And no, I don't agree that "it's fine as it is" wins, because I often post the opposite and I've gotten a fair share of upvotes, as have many well known posters.

31 minutes ago, TheBrsrkr said:

 "They should have seen that coming" is easy to say after it happens, but I doubt many people here thought it would happen  before it did.

But they should have. It's their job, not ours.

I never claimed game design was easy (or I'd be signing up for it).

[(PSN)Stealth_Cobra]

Still way too expensive even with the adjustment to the oxium costs... Fix this DE, please ! Make us happy and stop overinflating prices.

[BuddaOfLife]

Personally i dont like the high oxium but this frame shouldn't be easy to get.

However the ridiculous shoving stuff back in rotation C is just idiotic for anyone thats done lots in this game your stuck doing the same old S#&$ over and over again.

Give us different places to go for the parts, what about derelict and all those key types that never get used. what about anything that doesn't involve sitting mindlessly in rotation C cycles again and again and again....

 

No wonder people are leaving

[DoomFruit]

4 hours ago, KillingDyl said:

Remember the rule about the vocal minority on the internet. The most vocal part of any forum regarding any issues are the ones that don't agree with the topic at hand. Anyone who is okay with the crafting cost are generally silent because it doesn't concern them to input their opinion into the rage-fest.

The other silent players are the ones who go "F*** it, I don't care about this any more" and leave or just ignore it. That's the perspective I take towards anything that uses alertium - they $&*^ over the players by adding something that disconnects effort from reward, I'm going to draco it to 30 while using it as little as possible and throw it away immediately afterwards. And before anyone goes "oh, but the original Vauban did this too", I don't like that either.

 

And yes, I'm firmly in the "this is far too expensive" camp. Enjoy your trip down the knux and sibear slippery slope.

Edited May 19, 2016 by DoomFruit

[Reifnir]

I'm starting to see a pattern here.

They're trolling quite hard, I think. 

You need very large quantities of NEETain, a resource that practically is "got to be a NEET to obTAIN".

And you need an absurd (yes, DE, 7k is still absurd!) amount of OXium. Which is, in essence, OXen sh1t, or in short, bullsh1t. And that cryotic is just some icing on the cake. 

I bet whoever came up with the idea of Vauban resource requirements  is laughing very, very hard now. 

 

 

 

Edited May 19, 2016 by Reifnir

[Circle_of_Psi]

Wow..

[Sennera]

The oxium requirement is obnoxious and uncalled for, even after the reduction. We went from 1-2 oxium per drop to feed recipes needing around 500 oxium each to 10ish oxium per drop to feed recipes needing around 500 oxium each, to reduce the grind needed for oxium.

Now, we're apparently multiplying oxium requirements for recipes by 10 to undo that? Not that it really matters because it took me only 2 hours of effort to grind 7,000 oxium (spent all mine on other stuff last week, not expecting absurd amounts to be needed) last night but if Vauban Prime has that much Oxium in him he better be floating in 1 atmosphere because he's lighter than Zephyr apparently.

 

The Nitain is even worse. The week before Vauban's announcement I used my stock (20ish on hand or so) on a bunch of BPs I hadn't gotten around to building yet, so I only had 7 on-hand when I finished gathering all of Vauban Prime's stuff. The Nitain is ironically rarer than ANY prime seeing as how you can farm all the Xiphos parts (over a 2-week+ period) and not get a single Nitain from sabotage 2.0 according to the people who have farmed the Xiphos.

Seeing as how sabotage 2.0 has such low Nitain drops we're relying entirely on alerts. Seeing as how me playing the game has no affect on how fast Nitain shows up on alerts, I'm finding myself drawn away from the game to other games while I wait for said alerts. Hell, through some good luck Dungeon Defenders 2 decided to release their newest hero just 2 days after Vauban Prime so I guess I'll go there where I can put grind in, get results, and not rely on a timed mechanic.

I seriously feel bad for the people who have a life though. If you can only realistically get 1 Nitain a day and you had none on hand before this, it would take just under a month to gather 20 Nitain IF you're lucky to get the alerts when you have the time.

 

Edit: All that said, I suppose we can be thankful they made Vauban Prime a thousand times easier to get than Vauban.

Edited May 19, 2016 by Sennera

[OzoneSlayer]

18 minutes ago, Sennera said:

.

 

Edit: All that said, I suppose we can be thankful they made Vauban Prime a thousand times easier to get than Vauban.

At least regular Vauban is a guaranteed drop from the mission and takes nowhere near as much resources to grind