Trinity Revisions Feedback [Post Update 18.13]

[Archwizard]

3 minutes ago, shootaman777 said:

A blatant nerf.

That would be the point, yes.

The intention of the original mitigation formula was to reward you for using the ability reactively, so you wouldn't just pre-cast it in every situation to give yourself godmode.
All it changed was that people would near-suicide, then pre-cast it in every situation to give themselves godmode.

The emergent playstyle went against the intended design of the frame, so it was changed.

[-InV-igo95862]

48 minutes ago, Fast_98 said:

I have noticed now trin just go away from the team and and use blessing to get 99% reduction.

Or play solo.

[kubbi]

First I'd like to mention that I've never used the 99% invuln trick. In my opinion she is overnerfed. She has received 2 nerfs which are:

1. Fixed 50 meters healing range.
2. Invunerability percent is now dependant on average health of the team instead of the lowest health.

I'd say one of them would've been sufficient. Both these nerfs are overkill. Her ultimate is really lackluster at the moment. I don't think nerfing or buffing blessing will satisfy enough of the playerbase. What I think she needs is a new ultimate. One that is different from blessing but still healing related. One thats not so overpowered where people think its gamebreaking and not as lackluster to disappoint. That could be DE's chance to think carefully and create a fitting ability.

Edited May 29, 2016 by kubbi
Grammar

[shootaman777]

46 minutes ago, Archwizard said:

That would be the point, yes.

The intention of the original mitigation formula was to reward you for using the ability reactively, so you wouldn't just pre-cast it in every situation to give yourself godmode.
All it changed was that people would near-suicide, then pre-cast it in every situation to give themselves godmode.

The emergent playstyle went against the intended design of the frame, so it was changed.

Godmode as it may be, with OP enemies, a 99% DR is almost necessary, not something that is abused the hell out of.  I don't see many Blessing Trinities outside of endgame content, as they are unneccessary unless the going gets so tough that a Blessing Trinity is warranted.  In my opinion, this is an increase in the difficulty of already endgame content, not just a Trinity nerf.  This is what I deem to not be an acceptable change- it is not a Godmode nerf, as most players do not use Godmode unless it is necessary- since everything had a potential to be trivialized by this, but few things were, since there was no need for a Blessing Trinity in the majority of content, I don't see this 'major abuse of Godmode' issue that apparently warranted this nerf bomb.  That's why I am calling for a reversion of this nerf, or at least the DR part of it.  

[Archwizard]

25 minutes ago, kubbi said:

I don't think nerfing or buffing blessing will satisfy enough of the playerbase. What I think she needs is a new ultimate. One that is different from blessing but still healing related. One thats not so overpowered where people think its gamebreaking and not as lackluster to disappoint. That could be DE's chance to think carefully and create a fitting ability.

My vote's on something that extends the party's bleedout timers.

Even with an infinite range it can't be easily abused for godmode, and plays well into her new passive. More emphasis on Well of Life as a core healing mechanic. Would need a secondary effect to be useful in solo, of course.

15 minutes ago, shootaman777 said:

Godmode as it may be, with OP enemies, a 99% DR is almost necessary, not something that is abused the hell out of. 

Which is a meta that DE intends to rectify.

Yes, it's disappointing that they removed the crutch before they fixed the broken leg, but the point is that you won't need the crutch eventually. If that means a few weeks of some missions being uncheesable, versus a few weeks of every mission being trivial? Well... games lean towards challenge, after all.

Edited May 29, 2016 by Archwizard

[Hellmaker2004]

15 minutes ago, Archwizard said:

My vote's on something that extends the party's bleedout timers.

Even with an infinite range it can't be easily abused for godmode, and plays well into her new passive. More emphasis on Well of Life as a core healing mechanic. Would need a secondary effect to be useful in solo, of course.

Her passive is worthless, not on the same level as Oberon, Ember and Frosts current passives are. But a 0.5 - 1 meter extra range and ~ 1 second faster revive is not even noticeable. If that would be required to save the team something else is wrong in the team composition.

 

I think Blessing would be fine in it's current state if our health would not drop so fast. So if our maximum health was changed or our foes damage was lowered and more reaction based on the hard hitting things it would be fine.

[Archwizard]

14 minutes ago, Hellmaker2004 said:

Her passive is worthless, not on the same level as Oberon, Ember and Frosts current passives are. But a 0.5 - 1 meter extra range and ~ 1 second faster revive is not even noticeable. If that would be required to save the team something else is wrong in the team composition.

Hmm. Would be more useful if it was something like "Trinity revives allies at the speed of two Tenno."

[-JT-_-R3W1ND]

14 hours ago, Arandabido said:

DE always goes for the "not supporting 1 key warframes" and with Saryn that worked like wonder (Even if people didn't got it at first). Trinity needed some kind of treatment to get her out of that zone, but with the nerf alone? it just made life too complicated for everybody.

You must be joking.

To be clear, there is 2 frames with kinda sinergy what actually didn't work. Mag and Saryn. As for Saryn, she doesn't work. I mean she is now Draco/defence killer. And obliviosly didn't got is at first time couse DE buff her wery well. Actually this "When cast on Molt, Spores energy cost is reduced by 50%" only make her good. Any other things doesn't work very well. Do you really see now any 3-1-4? This super toxin equal Nova M.Prime. And Spore can do job only if they spamed. What exacty return us to Draco or something. This is extremly hard to use something as spam and be mobile. 

And let me clear your mind. Frames needs mods. Every ability have best combination of them. They are never (almost) the same for any frame. DE is always design warframes to have needs in all mods. This is obliviosly make "1 key warframes" couse it is better to have one good ability instead of 4 average. Maybe it not so oblivios to DE and they think about balance or whatever, but it never will work.

They do this so hard... Mag is another frame with this desaster.

But lets go back to Trinity. First of all, you can get a point, as usual we have 2 opposite builds for her.

Next time DE kill her 1-2 combo for no reason. I mean in this game it is not a big deal kill a single mob since bosses are imun to this trick. But he dead. Now Well of Life is a joke. I mean we already have heal. Actually i always think combo is the only reason of existing this ability. This is not even look's like a control... 10x health make it just weird.

As for rework... Let's dream together.

1. EV+Well of Life with no x10 health is good idea.

2. Link must be team based. I mean it always should be so. "Link to enemy's" even sound weird. So, Trinity just take all team damage to herself. In a good range. And yeah, i know it benefit for a surv run, but who really care? We have so much warframes and Trinity have her 4, and damage returning not a best idea with no Banshee of Nova, or even with em

3. Blessing DR is allways self buff. It can be combined with link.

4. Actually i prefer just returning of 1-2 combo. This was a really good example of how synergy must look like, and not to make every single skill weak by themself. 

4.1. But we can think about is.

• Another (like it is now) Link to enemies.
• Damage buff (no reason to buff HP or shilds)
• Something cool as stop the world (let's say base 50m for 5 second every 50 seconds no affected by mods). I love concept of punic button.
• Something cool as Rage. Speed boost, casting boost, damage boost for a short time. I feel like she need to be a bit more agressive. It can work like she lose all health and energy, restoring it only by killing enemies in great amount. So she need to kill somebody to use her 4 (obliviosly imun while Rage). But this will work great only after removing self-damage.

Dunno, this is not my best. I came here only to remind you how it actually goes in Warframe. Never think before how to do Triny good for comunity and DE same time.

[BloodForTheBloodGods]

2 hours ago, -InV-igo95862 said:

Or play solo.

See, this is the problem I have with this change. Trinity is a support frame, that is her theme, really. This change makes Bless way better for solo play, yet very lackluster in teams. And it's not like getting the 99% DR was easy. It isn't like Valkyr's channeled god mode, that's just the click of a button, still. Anyway, perhaps if they change it so it could scale with pwr str, so you could make it better, but still barely reach 99% would make it better. Something like

>Damage Resistance % = 1 - ((Average Tenno Health %)²)/power strength

That way it still relies on the entire teams health, but you can also build to improve it. for example let's say, you're still self damaging as trin, so the squad has 75% health and you have 150% power strength.

>Damage Resistance % = 1 - (( 75 %)²)/1.5 = 1 - 0.375 = 62.5% DR

200% power strength

>Damage Resistance % = 1 - (( 75 %)2)/2 = 1 - 0.28125 = 71.87% DR

Still not OP by any means, but a lot better than bless and getting a measly 43.75%.

Edited May 29, 2016 by BloodForTheBloodGods

[adiamorph]

I think the Blessing change was too big of a nerf, not in a "oh no you can't be invincible anymore" way, but now it just doesn't do enough as an ultimate.

Now it's just a combination of... spending too much energy for too little benefit for too short a duration. The 10 second default duration was fair when Blessing could easily grant the whole squad godmode. The 100 energy cost was also fair when, again, Blessing could easily grant the whole squad godmode. But now it doesn't do that: it's much harder to get good damage reduction from Blessing, which is good because I don't think it should be that easy to become invincible either, but now it doesn't feel like it's doing very much at all due to its other many drawbacks.

I think the damage reduction should be based on something more useful and a little less situational, something other than the squad's current health. It was already pretty difficult to use Blessing without damaging yourself when your squad members' health was always either at 100% or 0%. I don't have some sort of flawless suggestion to replace the way it works now, but that's my problem with Blessing.

I play Trinity quite a bit with various builds (I don't do self-damage either). Because of Blessing being based on current health (before and after 18.3), the only support I could typically give my squad was keeping my own self alive really well with Link in order to revive everyone else. Blessing never really did anything except help me survive a little better if I needed to revive someone and Link didn't quite mitigate enough damage. The whole problem with playing Trinity as a support frame is "I wanna help out my squad but everyone's health is either at 100% or changing really fast! Casting it will just give us 0% damage reduction because that person over there that's about to run into danger will either take only shield damage or have all their health depleted in 0.2 seconds and die anyway." 

So yeah... anything but current health. In Warframe, people rarely sit around at 10% health long enough for you to cast Blessing. They're either using a frame with max health+armor and some sort of life steal, or they're using any other frame that will either be at 100% health or instantly dead. Because, you know, enemy damage scaling.

Edited May 29, 2016 by adiamorph

[(PSN)WINDMILEYNO]

18 hours ago, Flackenstien said:

While the exact way and numbers of the nerf are generally debatable, the actual nerf is extremely justified.  
I love Trin, but she trivializes the game far too much, and her ultimate makes all her other abilities, barring Energy Vampire (also OP), useless.  
Trinity would be much funner if:  

● Her main heal was Well of Life, with some changes ofcourse.  
-Trinity's damage to target also heals allies by a reduced %.  
-Enemies near Well of Life could potentially receive a sort of debuff.  
-Pool of Life could instead turn enemies near the initial target into additional Wells of Life upon cast, increasing CC and effective healing.   

● Her main damage reduction was Link.  
-Allow it be to link to nearby allies before continuing onto enemies, granting your nearby allies damage reflection.   

● Blessing was more of a panic button with utility, instead of a god mode.   
-Heals chunks over time rather than instant, damage resistance starts big and lowers with each heal.  
-Reduction scales separately per Tenno health on first heal, if it even still scales. (Maybe X% base reduction + additional reduction % based on how much damage, like it is currently, but toned down.)  
-Can now revive downed allies in range, with revive speed inversely scaling with range. (Maybe with diminishing returns.)      
-Grants knockdown resistance that scales with the same formula as the damage reduction.  

● Energy Vampire could use a few more rules and conditions.    
-Lower Energy returns from rushing it by killing the enemy.  
-Lower the base regen, but increase Energy returns the longer the Ability is up.  
-Energy received by players inversely scales with how much Energy they currently have.   

I feel that Trinity would be a much more active and interesting Warframe with tweaks like these.  
She'd still be highly desired, but not 100% above other medic-abled frames, like Inaros, Oberon, Hydroid, Nezha, ect.  

This is pretty cool

[polarbear911]

I think the trinity nerf is understandable to somewhat extent, because let's face it, why would you explore and use many other mods created for the warframe? or maybe other augments mods are bad ideas in the first place? who knows really. Striking a balance is difficult and to think that 'Bless' trinity is dead, I guess that's a yes and no situation. In team play situations, it's pretty much forces players to get good at using no.4 instead of just spamming it blindfolded. Does this encourage new players to go in-depth and try to learn get better at playing trinity? who knows, everyone's different. Really comes back to is playing warframe enjoyable? Some may say games are meant to be fun, and not overwhelmingly hard that it becomes your 2nd profession because you need to be resourceful and knowledgeable to be able to enjoy it. Bottom line, if you like playing warframe because of whatever reason, don't play the game, or don't play trinity at all. If you want to play the game, just makes sure that you come to accept the change and be ready to be banned (IP banned) if DE hates finds your negativity to be factual appropriate, period.

 

 

[Velarriba]

On 27.05.2016 at 11:36 PM, Magneu said:

It's kind of funny how in other games with hard-hitting enemies, 50% mitigation is an amazingly powerful ability, while in Warframe, if people can't have 99% mitigation for half a minute at a time, they claim the game is unplayable at high level (you know, cause 80 minutes T4 is "balanced").

We got mobility. Chroma can double people's armor and give bullet reflect/slow. Equinox can slow enemies in a huge radius by almost 80% with ease, while healing (although Mend needs help), some frames can lock down entire maps with ease...maybe, now that permanent 99% mitigation is gone, DE can begin the great re-balancing that Warframe needs.

That, or tank frames can become important again. If my Chroma can survive level 150 enemies, maybe you shouldn't bullet-jump ahead of me into the crowd?

Well, if you say your Chroma can handle ***ton of enemies, then all tanky frames have to have some sort of a taunt, otherwise your handling is useless in a team play. In other games, I may assume, where a 50% mitigation is great, a player has over 9000 HP, literally, like it is capped in thousands, and mob's damage is around 500-1000 at worst. In that case yes, that damage reduction may have sense. In here most mobs(I say only about raids and sometimes sorties, but mostly raids) can shred you in seconds, unless you have over 600% armour, and that's basicly Chroma and Valkyr. I don't count Wukong, as he doesn't need armour and is from another league. And even they can be nocked down. And you may need time to ress your team of 8 then, not to mention time to stand up yourself(yes, it's seconds, but here seconds are important).

The idea of made nerf to blessings is not that bad, however it is to complex now and mostly useless, as it's pretty difficult to make all 8 people to lower their HP at the same time and not to die. Too many conditions were added.

[Oishii]

Well she needed a nerf, but the way her blessing works is way too clunky if you want to use it as a way to keep allies alive. I always said link should affect allies as its a less obtuse way to buff allies. My original suggestion months ago that just caused a forum fight over whether Trinity is OP or not is to tie her defensive buff to link or at least make link another supplemental defensive ability for allies on top of blessing's buff. One idea is to make it so it just affects allies outside and it the same exact ability or allies take 0 damage when in range of a linked trinity and the damage they would take is redirected at Trinity at 95% damage reduction and deal damage to the enemy (attacks aimed at you have 75% damage reduction or whatever). It seems fitting for a selfless healer. BTW trinity is still god mode while soloing.

Edited May 30, 2016 by Oishii

[PsychoGugus]

14 hours ago, Bibliothekar said:

Sure, they'll have a graph of their active player-base (as does Steam, btw. - third-party link, because I can't find it on Steam's page), but that's influenced by a number of reasons, like Overwatch at the moment.

How to lose 20k players in less than a week.

[73lac7c]

I just ran the numbers on trinitys new blessing formula changes the only way you can get 99% now is if trinity does her self damage so she is @ 2 health and the entire team is at 12% health remaining. If trinity uses blessing while @2 health and two allies are either bleeding out or dead and lets say someone like loki is hiding with 90% health bless still wont hit the 99%. In a 8 man raid with Trinity @2 health if everyone on the team isn't bleeding out or dead bless still wont hit the 99% (one person left w trinity @80% health)

Edited May 30, 2016 by 73lac7c

[BloodForTheBloodGods]

7 hours ago, BloodForTheBloodGods said:

-snip-

I'd also like to add that they really f***ed up 8player missions with this change. So, another idea on how they could amend this change, to make bless a little more forgiving, and less S#&$.

Damage Resistance % = 1 - (( Average Tenno Health % - (25% * pwr str))²)
 

_{bonus points when on the off chance everyone has 2 health and you get more than 100% DR and enemies heal you with their attacks.}

 

Edited May 30, 2016 by BloodForTheBloodGods

[NeomanSeraph]

Yes I have to also gripe about Trin in 8 man content. Is it possible to make it scale with the number of players in the group? Because Bless is really hampered in RAID CONTENT as it is.

[Sir.X]

I wish her other abilities were more useful. Wol is useless compared to the health gained by blessing. Ev spamming is always requested. The damage reduction from Link should not be limited. Blessing should become more useful by not being spam-able.

1.Well of life should just always leak health in a set range, and would give larger amounts when damaged by the player.

2. Energy Vampire should give less energy per tick with -duration, and more energy per tick with +duration

3. Link should just link to all enemies in a set range. 20 enemies in a 30 range? You get linked to 20 enemies with a set damage reduction.

4. Blessing would be interesting if it functioned like Reraise from Final fantasy. You cast it once and it gives like half shields+health when you get downed, along with some damage reduction. 

Since Blessing is limited to 50m, it would make sense that Trinity could revive in that range and revive twice as fast in that range too.

[KhanGourou]

I don't know if someone already mentionned it, but the range limitation means that now, there is no way for Trinity to help player in archwing for the Jordas Verdict.

And given the difficulty of the trial, it just means that it will become a plate fest to survive it since there is no other way to be healed. So a difficult and long trial, which is good, now becomes unfair in my opinion by not letting people cooperate, which was the point of the trial.

Frankly speaking, I did not check in game, but it would surprise me otherwise.

The nerf hammer is also a mision killer hammer here.

[Circle_of_Psi]

19 pages and DE still have NOT said anything?.

So, what, is this forum just for the laughs?

[(PSN)xKAIOWAx]

When this game becomes a rhino world some guys finally have some satisfy 

[FaintestAura]

Its upsetting considering that the main problem was a 99% damage reduction. This could have simply been lowered to a more reasonable number. I would even accept a range cap if need be. There does not need to be an elaborate calculation to mitigate damage. 

[Generalsherman]

This has really killed any desire to play WF for a while. I honestly thought Trinity was done being nerfed and was in a good spot. It was hard enough playing a Trin that wasn't a EV spammer and this will only get rid of any non-EV builds. 

[lathera]

as I said In another thread the new UI elements do not help trinity players that much since we do not know if the people we are supposed to be helping are in range of blessing or not.. damn the dmg mitigation ... just straight up heal should be caped out side of the affinity sharing to half or something ... not straight out elimination of it... the newer maps are a lot bigger and will affect the effectiveness of a lot of squads out there

UI needs a proper indicator of who is in range or not

Healing effect should reduced affected by the range outside the affinity sharing sphere not eliminated entirely