Dev Workshop Part 3: 18.13.0 Aftermath & Beginnings.

[MokutoBunshi]

Found a bug btw:

Yeeeeah......

]\'[

[LornMind]

2 minutes ago, Ceryk said:

At no point did I say that that was all there was to it. I am well aware that there's a huge number of things that need to be dealt with in terms of balancing this game. But we're not talking about those issues. 18.13 is about balancing a number of frames that are blatantly over or under powered and the backlash that's being see in regards to certain frames.

Well I'm very glad you're aware of the myriad problems that plague this game, that fills me with hope. But really, there is no better time than now, when exposure is highest, to make your voice heard about what still ails this game. The patch may not be addressing the issues I've presented, but I sure as hell would like an upcoming patch to do so, and the actual changes in this patch are a great springboard for those ideas I'd like to see gain prominence.

And it seems like it has worked, as DE has been made very much aware of what players were saying about scaling.

[MokutoBunshi]

I have one hope for all the opinions and especially the major one being:

 

Press 4 to win needed a nerf

and the enemies were too strong so we needed press 4 to win.

 

That hope is that since in either case many people (whether for or against that much power) saw that button spam as boring, that you guys come out with awesome, cool and engaging ways to be able to sustain in a mission!

That is my hope.

 

]\'[

[LilyLincesa]

37 minutes ago, Wolfnrun said:

A lot of things really aren't going good for it, the rework. More problematic/nerfs then buffs...I'm expecting fixes and stuff next week 

Well, a lot of things are working well, there are just things that aren't. Mag's abilities work for the most part, and Volt's function as advertised for the most part as well, with, as far as I can see, only two things that really need fixing, and both of those are on his ult. So,yes, fixes are very much so needed, but they aren't completely busted to the point of unplayability. 

 

[Husla]

I don't mind change, Terrible terrain doesn't help with LoS. Problem, I have with these updates are they usually end up affecting the frames that challenge high level content. You continue to stop us from achieving these high rounds/mins/waves but you have never changed enemy scaling. Why not say, you don't want us to go that far and cap it then I'd accept more of your updates.

[Rhaenxys]

I will be honest, im a bit disappointed with some changes but thats why i leave my feedback and take my time to do it, because i know for the most part, DE takes their feedback, if they dont change something i take it as a "DE: well it is balanced in our book" and nothing more, perspectives are a thing.

I've been playing other free to play games and the devs just simply dont care for their feedback or only on critical things (things who can make them get money faster) DE is like a shiny unicorn in how they treat their playerbase.

Good to hear about future hotfixes.

[Wynn]

I don't know this feels like the old auras bad were we had to pay for them and not a bonus. They did change them but that was also a time playerbase went into riot mode.

I mean been playing for years and my two fav Frames are Trin and Mag and I was so depressed last night.

[(PSN)Prisma144]

I knew you would not just change warframes and not also (later) weapons and enemy scaling.

I hope this post will help to calm tenno who are upset about the warframe changes and do think our feedback is not important.

 

 

[CY13ERPUNK]

+1 OP

looking forward to even more changes, dont let the haters get ya down Rebs =] 

of course there are some valid points about loki's passive being rather lackluster and oberon's probably needs just a bit more

and apparently volt's ULT is being limited by dmg caps which can effectively also reduce it duration by making it end early =/, this seems counter-productive/intuitive considering ember previously had a similar problem with a WoF rework that was later 'fixed', why re-introduce the same flawed mechanic back into volt with a new rework of an ability? =/ things like this just really make a lot of us scratch our heads sometimes [oh to be a fly on the wall at some of yall's inhouse meetings]

all in all tho, i am excitedly looking forward to more massive in-depth system changes for WF later in 2016 and hopefully even more-so in 2017 ; as cool as this behemoth that you guys have created is, there is no question that it still has a LOT of rough edges, but i think that if you prioritize improving the core 'gameplay' aspects, that WF could really be in a super-great place in a year or two [obviously new content is always nice, but we've had 4 years of consistent new content and here we are still debating some core fundamental problems with the game due to ignoring ongoing issues and rampant power-creep]

would luv to see in the next two years : 

improvements to the functionality of the relay game-space [ie more things to do inside them, more user-friendly features not just 'fluff'] ; each relay should be a unique location, no more carbon copies [atm maroo's bazaar rly feels just like a very alpha/beta attempt at something for example]

bring dojo's and clans back into the fold, currently they serve as trading hubs and places to research the clan-tech weapons [another semi-abandoned system] why spend so many manhours designing these features ingame but yet players have so little incentives to populate these spaces?

the upcoming dmg v3.0 reworks [especially the removal/rework of the core base dmg mods and having weapons gain +5% dmg per rank instead, ie +150% dmg at rank 30

re-work/re-tune the entire concept of enemy scaling, ie give enemies more 'features' at higher ranks, NOT just more armor/hp/dmg, if anything, enemy armor/hp/dmg should have either some form of hard-caps or maybe some form of diminishing returns after a certain point, so they could get stronger with higher lvls, but the gains would not stay consistent as the lvls went higher [having the 'endgame' just be a one-shot or perma-cc lockdown has really made the game incredibly stale over the last several years]

re-design arghwing into something that does not try to steal the show from the frames, ie AW should 'compliment' the frames, not completely replace them ; make ALL frame mods functional/viable in AW-mode, make the AW mods just add small extra benefits on-top of the frame mods ; make the AW's use their own defensive counter-measure abilities in similar ways to how our companions [sents/kubro] do ; give each frame 2 signature abilities that they can use while in AW-mode, then the AW itself can each have 2 signature/defining abilities, thus AW becomes the proper mesh of the two worlds, instead of the current bastard step child that it has been since its inception [also hoping the upcoming new additions/enemies help as well]

excited and looking forward to the new star chart

definitely need to bring back the dark sectors in some srs form

distribute the new sentient enemies throughout the system, having them only on the moon seems silly

still waiting on re-do-able quests and past events, plz do not let all of that content have completely gone to waste over the years =[

design a system for user-generated ingame missions/quest-lines/content/etc, similar to the architect system from the game City of Heroes [could be a simulation/holo-deck type of thing to rule out in-game canon issues]

allow all frames to use the unarmed melee if no melee weapon is equipped ; have the base stats be something like even IPS 1/1/1 so 3 dmg per rank [so 90 total at frame rank 30], then base spd 1, crit chance 10%, crit dmg 2x, but of course no melee mods to affect these stats {one would imagine that the frames would not be helpless in hand-to-hand combat after all} (could even have unique unarmed stats for each unique frame or 'class' of frames ie: heavy/slow/fast/light/medium/etc, but thats more work for a later date, just having the functionality and options ingame at first should be a priority)

and finally, as a personal request : give melee more buttons/options, ie a melee alt-fire equivalent [related somewhat to a rework of melee in general towards a two-button hvy/light combo system instead of the pause/hold system but thats another discussion] ; specifically for the QoL improvement of the melee throwing weapons : the ability to throw from a wall-cling, to throw from mid-air, and to use the melee unarmed animations while the glaive/whatevs is in flight ; also fix the origin launch point to stop from throwing the glaive into the ground or the small ledge or wall in front of you ; also remove the pre-atk/charge atk swing animations and the stutter-step that is taken before each throw, as well as the completely unnecessary screenshake that makes aiming unnecessarily difficult

ok whew... man... brain/data-dump complete =P

[TeaBegging]

DE if you really want to fight cheese.

Make your game modes more entertaining to play many have way to basic goals. Little to less diversity among each other.

AI been just meat spins running to be slaughtered, make them more interesting smarter, have them work together better.

Enemies scaling most debated, usually the reason why cheesing happens the most. Nobody likes to shoot an entire 200 clip soma prime to kill an enemy.

Game rewarding huge problem latetly more junk came to the game.

Enemies spawn mechanics, the longer you progress you more heavy units spawn maybe. Better traps. Environment changes.
 

So many to  address, With these actions to avoid cheesing it will just create other frames to do so. Up to a point that they will be nerfed as well.

Because I could still think of plently ways to cheese even if these changes happen, and not even talking about ash.

[hammerheathen]

To be 100% honest,

It is my experience and observation that if you were to communicate a clear goal and the desire, the community would be a lot more accepting of extreme changes, even if they were painful for a time. It gives us time to reflect on what it means. I've been around since the beginning, and I've also been around for a lot of other things, people generally get this extremely upset when they feel they are blind-sided.

It's easier to chart the course forward, if the players are included in the discussion beforehand, not after. Momentum is only so easy to redirect.

[-TSA-voshond]

I hope reviewing Enemy scaling will give us the opportunity to play endless missions without getting oneshotted after a certain point. I agree that some nerfs were needed to make parts of the Game actually matter instead of just 1 button taken away.

Tho i was a bit disappointed when i saw that these nerfs were not discussed or mentioned at the same time when the reworks came in to prevent this surge at all. Punching someone in the Face and then asking if you want to solve this problem without violence is not the right way. Same goes for changing fundamental ways that worked for years or months and then ask how you can do it better.

tho i am thankful that you are making this post, ready to listen to us.

[(PSN)decogold]

2 hours ago, NovusNova said:

This already exists and has been a thing since U16.

As stated on the U16 patch notes (from: https://forums.warframe.com/topic/420448-warframe-sanctuary/ ): 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

"A note from The Lotus:

Special thanks to the Tenno who aided us in a small experiment with Update 16. After a couple years of talk, we finally were able to set up a Test cluster which could be accessed externally. This Test cluster housed the many iterations of Update 16 content.

For 1 week straight leading up to this update, a group of just under 20 veteran Tenno spent hours and hours each day playing together, giving feedback, finding bugs, and voicing concerns. Each day included tireless attempts at the incredibly difficult Raids, hilarious moments competing in PvP, and general exploration of all things new. This past week has been one for the memory books - about 60+ hours together with veteran Tenno who applied their skill to some of our hardest and most surprising content yet. I loved every minute of it, and I can’t wait to see what we can do for quality with the potential that this Test cluster has opened!

Rebecca"

 

 

That might be for new lore-focused content, but i was referring to on-the-road updates which can have an impact on gameplay. (18.13.0 for example).

[DarkOvion]

4 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

In Warframe's 3 years of being in Open Beta.

I have a question, that I would dearly like an answer too, specifically in regards to this.

Ignoring the nerfs, the changes, the constant increase to grind labeled as reducing the grind.

How is the game still supposedly classed as an 'open beta'.

The definition of Beta is as follows:

Beta Version

noun

 Computing

noun: beta version; plural noun: beta versions

• a version of a piece of software that is made available for testing, typically by a limited number of users outside the company that is developing it, before its general release.

Which, is not Warframe.

Warframe is about to reach Update 19, and it's had dozens of versions so far, it's had 3 anniversaries of its 'release'.

It has a full cash shop, 4 3 tiered Prime Access packages a year (with price from £33 to £92).

Nowhere on the Website, the FAQ, the T&C, Launcher, Build Notes or Game Client does it mention 'beta', it states Version 18.13.0.

Most of the in-game systems are on Version 2 or more.

 

So how does it still get referenced as a Beta?

[Rhundis]

The fact that developers like yourselves take the time to come to us, the players, and explain things in great detail makes me want to stay here even more. You view us as an actual community, not someone who they can get money from. 

I truly believe that this company is the best game developers I have come across and I will be there for every step along the journey.

 

Lead us across the stars DE.

[BuddaOfLife]

4 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

It is with the best intentions that we are committed to reducing cheese.

Seriously if your going to reduce cheese then sort the damn enemies out, why do you think some of us dont play the sorties etc because of the ridiculous scaling.

I dont find it fun at all playing at those levels.

I did the Kela da Thym thing a couple of times and was bored stiff so that was binned

Derelict is nearly completly wasted, about the only that gets used in my guild is the survival for farming which on par tedious as the void. as its 2 man 60 waves of chatting and occasionally pressing a button. i might as well watch tv.

I know loads of players that watch or even play on another screen or phone etc whilst they are farming, shows how interested they are. its become a necessity not an interest.

A game should be engaging and make me want to play, im stuck now after 648 hrs where all i have is finding the missing weapons and a couple of frames and tedious void every night, small wonder im looking for other games to play.

The only time its kinda fun is using my frames to help others finish levels. but theres less of that as my clan seems to be dwindling and most in discord play other stuff now.

It does you no good if you spend all the time making the game and people just drift away.

 

I have no idea what im going to do next as i really cant be bothered to login most days and if i do i barely play as there's nothing to do now other than grind.

Sad really to be my most played game ever in 30+ years of gaming and it dwindles out because its no fun any more.

Edited May 28, 2016 by BuddaOfLife

[(PSN)CrackFoxLegend]

3 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Hello Tenno!

 

Maybe it's time to buff Flame Repellent? This post is going to be a bit longer than usual, but its length is just a reflection of our gratitude and investment in everything that's gone on in Warframe not just over the past 24 hours, but the past 3 years. Your feedback has allowed us to grow together – which I'll show you how shortly – so we must begin by thanking you for sticking around and providing us with the feedback you freely give.

We are less than 24 hours into the release of 18.13.0 at the time of this thread, and we're already breaking forum records:

It seems that every big game these days uses 'passionate' to describe their players when vocalization surges, but I think it slightly glosses over what is actually at play here with Warframe - especially if you consider our history. This surge is rooted in a fervor of perspectives – the quantity of the posts has obviously increased (and so has my vocabulary on learning new profanity), and as a result the top-tier quality we are used to in community discussions has as well. As a group you've highlighted the best of the best, and we've been doing our best to read all of the Hot topics across the forums/Reddit/etc in the short time window following release.

In Warframe's 3 years of being in Open Beta, we've seen the 'surge' - the astute veteran can likely correlate spikes on that graph with balance situations that feel familiar to 18.13.0's release (note the drop on the graph is when we migrated the forums). For a lot of you, this might be your first surge! If so, welcome to Warframe – where we do things to digital EXTREMES!

In direct respect to 18.13.0:

More changes are coming – I wish I could give you a list now of exactly what but the list can only be built over time this weekend the longer we spend playing and extrapolating feedback. It is with the best intentions that we are committed to reducing cheese. At this time – even with these best intentions of more engaging play - the fundamental issue for many of you is: no amount of engagement counters the enemy's cheese. A select few abilities that we touched 'worked' in the eyes of the players because you could fight fire with fire once you entered a specific threshold of content. The tight-rope of frustration is high, and the changing of the meta can be painful. In our eyes some meta elements simply harmed the quality of the gameplay taking place. However, 'finality' is not a word I'd ever associate with our Dev process, and as flawed as that may sound I think it's one of the reasons we're such a tight-knit community is because time and time again we set the course together. As the say, if you want an omelette you have to crack a few eggs (I don't actually know if they say that).  

In direct respect to what is 'familiar' with these surges:

There was a time we changed Stamina, voices surged (so sayeth the graph), and then we completely redid our entire Parkour & Melee System. Every time we shake things up – no matter how lightly - the impact is objectively better. We see more people are interested in the game, and more people realize the impact their collective constructive views have on the game. There are a few counter-narratives that often indicate the end of times, I've seen it a lot over the years, but ultimately things come out better and bigger as a result. I'm not saying it doesn't have growing pains, though!

It bears repeating that more changes are coming soon. We will be hotfixing like mad next week, and getting deeper into difficulty discussions in terms of the enemy. It's been a long time since we have looked at enemy scaling and their spiky damage output, and in that time you've found ways to deal with it.

I honestly can't think of anything I'd like to be doing more than playing Warframe right now, hashing out feedback together, and getting things ready for the next Hotfix. So if you see me in game all weekend, that's what I'm up to!

Please accept our experimentation - the messy and the clean - and be open to iteration – it's been a big part of Warframe's development and community history. Over the course of each release, you'll find so many of the changes, additions, and fixes exist because of these moments.

-[DE]Rebecca

So there is a direct correlation between the numbers of players being drawn to the game and the numbers of players being drawn to the forums? Please help me understand how. Also, if you want to better balance your game to make as many players happy as possible, perhaps you should find a way to get players more involved in the forums. I come here to look for changes coming with updates just to stay up to date for my clan and friends. Every time I do so though, the only constant I see are nerf threads and fewer anti nerf threads. Hardly anything constructive and almost nothing creative.                                                                                  

There are always a few ideas floating around but there is hardly ever anything seriously talked about. That includes when it comes to fixing real game issues like getting stuck in doorways constantly because you're moving too fast, getting stuck in floors for who knows what reason, falling out of the map because you almost got stuck in the doorway but didn't, new clan updates, dojo updates, visual clipping issues that continue to abound on anything you decide to decorate your warframe with, etc. etc. etc. You know, real quality of life issues and fresh ideas instead of just constant nerf/don't nerf threads. It would be really nice to come here before an update or after a devstream and see nothing but threads about "thanks for the great gameplay" vs "thanks for fixing this balance issue" or "thanks for destroying my warframe that I loved to play."

I really don't think the whole trin nerf is as bad as people are making it out to be but I do believe there are bigger issues like the aforementioned. Everything else has already become stale while you fix issues that only are issues in public matches which make up a small percentage of how people play I'm sure. I've been playing for three years and the general community (on ps4 at least and it seems like here) is more toxic and divided in the last year than it ever has been. Every time I'm here, I end up staying just to argue a point to deaf ears even though I've tried to start a couple of threads for ideas that got drowned out by nerf! nerf! nerf!/no! no! no! threads.

What you're addressing are issues for sure but the biggest issues are the ones that drive new  and old players away. Outdated tile mechanics, graphics (which I know you're working on), unimaginative clan structure with hardly any management features (seen a lot of good threads ignored) boring dojo tiles with strict limits that put a huge damper on what you can create (I'm sure the game structure now would allow for much more room and overall dojo capacity), more tile set interaction and more open world please. I'm sure the infrastructure is now capable of supporting these changes and for a fast growing company with a lot of great talent, experience, and new investors, I can't help but think that it couldn't be that difficult if that's what your main focus was.

I guess all I'm really trying to say is, please give us players what we really want as opposed to what we think we want. That would be an update that greatly improves the overall quality of the visual and mechanical content that already exists in the game (even if it was one big update within a years time of the next) but is still functioning like it did on day one.

[Data-Zero]

1 hour ago, Ceryk said:

To use a more human oriented analogy: while it would have been better to not get frostbite in the first place, it's better to snip a few toes off now than let those toes fester and rot and the whole foot needs to come off. Be happy it's just a few toes.

Just a few toes..

FROM A FOOT THAT WAS AMPUTATED?

While the frostbite in the attached leg still exist?

I came for cheese. I enjoyed my cheese with wine. I enjoy grating said Cheese.

If you remove the cheese i might as well get out and find something else to play.

Edited May 28, 2016 by Data-Zero
*some addons*

[Noteybook]

If you can address enemy scaling and reduce enemy cheese, I'll accept your terms. But I'll see what happens until then.

[Kyrak_Drakhar]

Hmm, well ive probably made more posts in the last 24 hours than all year combined. You guys have made some mistakes in the past and you will continue to make mistakes in the future, but your success's far FAR outweigh the mistakes in my eyes. Ive been playing for 3 years now and i will continue to play this game that i have come to love. We may all be frustrated for different reasons, but you have proven to care about your community. So, with that in mind, I will continue to play the game that everyone has made together for the next three.

[Neckronlord]

After the second dream, the game turns into a big pile of s..., thank you, continue in the same direction

[HeelSouls]

Nerf, nerf, nerf, nerf, nerf

Enemy Scaling is absolutely ridiculous and prevents your wide range of weapons and frames from being useful at all. It just leads to tonkor syndrome, there would be more variety in the weapons people used if any were actually viable in end game content.... Mutalist Quanta? Stradavar? Paracyst? Miter? (one of the cooler weapons but is trash) Don't get it confused you can use these weapons for 'fun' but they are by no means competitive with the top tier or viable late game.

Warframes too, why is trinity the only healing frame used? Healing is pointless late game you just get 1 shot either way, trinity is taken for her damage reduction only, this is what needs to be changed. Please use this time you have taken to make sweeping balance changes. Balance can't be ignored like it has been or the player base gets used to 'op' gear and it leads to outrage when its changed 6 months or longer later and rightfully so with all the time they have spent to perfect their gear. 

[Zoracraft]

21 minutes ago, DarkOvion said:

I have a question, that I would dearly like an answer too, specifically in regards to this.

Ignoring the nerfs, the changes, the constant increase to grind labeled as reducing the grind.

How is the game still supposedly classed as an 'open beta'.

The definition of Beta is as follows:

Beta Version

noun

 Computing

noun: beta version; plural noun: beta versions

• a version of a piece of software that is made available for testing, typically by a limited number of users outside the company that is developing it, before its general release.

Which, is not Warframe.

Warframe is about to reach Update 19, and it's had dozens of versions so far, it's had 3 anniversaries of its 'release'.

It has a full cash shop, 4 3 tiered Prime Access packages a year (with price from £33 to £92).

Nowhere on the Website, the FAQ, the T&C, Launcher, Build Notes or Game Client does it mention 'beta', it states Version 18.13.0.

Most of the in-game systems are on Version 2 or more.

 

So how does it still get referenced as a Beta?

I believe it says "Open Beta" next to the version/date on the login screen. 

 

Legally, Warframe is technically an open beta, as DE makes that decision to cover their rear when they blow stuff up (like they did here).

 

In operation, it's not a "true" beta. We have a cash shop, the game has been in open beta for around 3 years. It does not deserve, nor should it be given, the same leeway as "true" betas. Anyone who thinks it does apparently thinks it's not a good idea to hold DE to the same standards as full game developers, which is a mistake that leads to the hubris that produced this update. 

[Rozalinsnow]

Please don't mind the haters DE, I for one am happy to see (some) of these changes. Us vets are well aware that DE is willing to change things with the appropriate feedback.

So while I personally think Polarize could use a buff and Blessing's range could be boosted more too, I'm well aware that you guys listen and have the community's best interest at heart. Keep it up, DE :)

[DarkOvion]

2 minutes ago, Neo_182 said:

Old but relevant.

 

Ok, so, that is one place, in the forums.

One thread, stating it's an open beta, posted in 2012, locked and 4 sub forums in.

The End User License Agreement, Terms of Use and Privacy Policy make no mention of it.

The EULA even states:

Warframe® (the “Game”) is a free-to-play computer game developed and operated by Digital Extremes Ltd.  In this agreement, “Digital Extremes” or “DE” means Digital Extremes Ltd., an Ontario, Canada Corporation; “you” and “your” mean the user of the computer on which the Game will be or has been installed.

Not that it's a Beta, open or otherwise.

The Steam Page doesn't list it as 'Early Access', as Beta, or anything, it lists it as a full, Free to Play, Action, Co-Op, Third Person Shooter, with a release date.

Either Digitial Extremes is delusional, 'forgot' to include it, or is being deliberately misleading so if anything happens, they can absolve themselves of all blame, dredging up an ancient, hidden document touting 'Open Beta'. (which sadly appears to be the case).

As much as I love the game (1,800 hours, spent £120+ recommended to at least 12 friends, and still playing despite burnout / disappointment at the latest wave of horrendous grind)  ... that's bad.

Either be honest and clearly label it as open beta, adding a .ob. to the version to make it clear, or drop the pretense.