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[DE]Rebecca

Dev Workshop Part 3: 18.13.0 Aftermath & Beginnings.

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12 minutes ago, EvilChaosKnight said:

Idk, it still feels to me that the benefits outweight the cons here. I run low-duration ("disruptor") Nyx Pr, and she's my #1 frame ever since she came out. Was maining normal Nyx before that.

Chaos IMO still as good if not better because if you might've noticed melee units actually hit harder than ranged AND they never miss their shots. They also bunch up together more so my punchthrough or AOE weapons would have easier time removing them. I also got an actual reason to use Psychic Bolts! Since they seem to disarm more often.

The only thing I'd change myself is to exclude MC from the passive's list of things to disarm. The rest actually work pretty nicely.

And if you just want to press a button and see mid-low lvl enemies die at fast rate, I suggest Ember (Pr). Does exactly that XD

Alright, that's your opinion, like I said before Psychic Bolts and Absorb do benefit from it, but again it lowers the synergy between abilities because I can cast Absorb, but what if it were to disarm the enemy that I wanted to Mind Control? Nyx is my favorite frame and I have over 70% playtime on her. Chaos is the exact same as Irridiating Disarm, which doesn't make sense and only hurts her, why have two Warframes with the exact same ability? Although Nyx's is only a chance, it still happens enough to where it gets annoying. And even if we were to exclude MC from the passive's list of things to disarm, what if I wanted to MC an enemy that just got hit by Psychic Bolts? Or Chaos? Or Absorb? And I don't want to see enemies die at a fast rate, you're missing my point. Below are quotes from two Reddit threads I found with people complaining about the new passive. Chaos was great because it ALLOWED enemies to kill each other quickly, which was fun and enjoyable! And melee units don't hit harder in all cases, a Bombard who just got disarmed while in Chaos is a lot less useful than a Bombard who has his weapon with Chaos. I don't just press a button to watch enemies die at a fast rate, you're missing my point in the benefit that Chaos had over Irridiating Disarm in the sense that it ALLOWED enemies to kill each other or weaken each other. I rarely ever saw a Disarmed enemy kill another enemy, and if it did it's because the Tenno just weakened or tried to kill that enemy and another enemy killed it before the Tenno could. Besides, why should there be any cons with a passive!? Please explain why any ability should be nerfed by a passive? A passive which now almost makes MC useless in many situations? Why should a passive even require ability casting, it's not a passive then. You're trying to look at the benefits and maybe that's because you run low-duration, but I see no synergy between the abilities now, I see Chaos' firepower being weakened by that. Plus, like you said, if you want to press a button and see enemies get disarmed, I suggest Loki. 

" Yeah same, I play Nyx because I want to sit back and laugh at enemies killing each other" 

" Nyx: Ok Nyx has been getting the short stick a lot in warframe and this passive is just another nerf. When I confuse enemies my goal is to have them kill each other, not start slap fights because half of them dropped their weapons. This should have been like frosts passive, where enemies who melee nyx have a chance of becoming confused. This passive would be usefull, on theme, and help squishy nyx survive a little longer rather than annoying her players. (pls fix nyx DE)"

 

Edited by TheMortemShadow
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Solving this "little" issue with the enemy cheese would make a LOT of players happy and the adjustments to our own cheese more acceptable.

Keep going, DE!

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1 hour ago, DeltaPhantom said:

Call me cynical, Rebecca, but a lot of this post feels like damage control to me. As in someone realized the forums were on fire, and asked you to step in and put a positive spin on things.

yeah is damage control what i fear is that hey give a slight nerf to enemies and say its done leaving all this nerf just that nerfs.

what need to be done with a nerf is to to give something back, example: valkir histeria nerf, ok but hey! we buff her other lack luster powers (rip line, her 3 having no range and being easy to fail if a enemy is doing a animation) 

I realy hope they keep their word with this~ 

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we have bursa nullifier Scrambus. return old blessing when we can get 99% DR. yes it cheap. but enemys more cheaper

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We'll see what happends from here. However as of right now I'll be sitting in a dead end room with 4 friends shooting tonkor shots off the entrance to the outside hitting badly scaled enemies. Glad the cheese is gone.

 

I'll give love and compliments when its deserved.

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3 hours ago, Megakruemel said:

It should be possible if enemies stop one-hit-K.O-ing frames. I think this needs work, not only at the player side but also at the AI side.

So much this.

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1 minute ago, TheMortemShadow said:

Alright, that's your opinion, like I said before Psychic Bolts and Absorb do benefit from it, but again it lowers the synergy between abilities because I can cast Absorb, but what if it were to disarm the enemy that I wanted to Mind Control? Nyx is my favorite frame and I have over 70% playtime on her. Chaos is the exact same as Irridiating Disarm, which doesn't make sense and only hurts her, why have two Warframes with the exact same ability? Although Nyx's is only a chance, it still happens enough to where it gets annoying. And even if we were to exclude MC from the passive's list of things to disarm, what if I wanted to MC an enemy that just got hit by Psychic Bolts? Or Chaos? Or Absorb? And I don't want to see enemies die at a fast rate, you're missing my point. Below is a quote from a Reddit thread I found with people complaining about the new passive. Chaos was great because it ALLOWED enemies to kill each other quickly, which was fun and enjoyable! And melee units don't hit harder in all cases, a Bombard who just got disarmed while in Chaos is a lot less useful than a Bombard who has his weapon with Chaos. I don't just press a button to watch enemies die at a fast rate, you're missing my point in the benefit that Chaos had over Irridiating Disarm in the sense that it ALLOWED enemies to kill each other or weaken each other. I rarely ever saw a Disarmed enemy kill another enemy, and if it did it's because the Tenno just weakened or tried to kill that enemy and another enemy killed it before the Tenno could. Besides, why should there be any cons with a passive!? Please explain why any ability should be nerfed by a passive? A passive which now almost makes MC useless in many situations? Why should a passive even require ability casting, it's not a passive then. You're trying to look at the benefits and maybe that's because you run low-duration, but I see no synergy between the abilities now, I see Chaos' firepower being weakened by that. Plus, like you said, if you want to press a button and see enemies get disarmed, I suggest Loki. 

" Yeah same, I play Nyx because I want to sit back and laugh at enemies killing each other" 

Tisk tisk tisk. So many words which say such a short thing. "To hell with potential end-game benefits, I can no long watch Saturn mobs kill each other as fast as they used to."

1st of all. A concept you seem to have failed to grasp even with 70% play time on Nyx. Chaos'ed enemies ARE NOT YOUR FRIENDS. In fact they still often prefer the objective to killing each other which is increasingly obvious during Excavs, Defs and Interceptions. So calling chaos'ed Bombard "useful" is... debateable. Extremely so. Chaos'ed Scorch or Napalm actually is anything BUT useful to you since huge AOE has no friends either. Thanks to this passive, I might actually remove some of them preventing my spontaneous combustion.

Now onto the MC issue. So now you have to find your target first and then Chaos the rest, not the other way around. Well, fine by me personally. In fact, most of my MC targets are the ones which will help me like Healers or Arctic eximi. 2nd most used MC is to make a specific enemy stop harming me or my ally if Chaos failed me here. And only on the last place is to use the MC as a DMG boost. Why? Because enemy damage to health pool ratio is... silly. AFAIK they are worse than Lato of the same lvl.

So in the end, all I see is overreacting over... actually nothing. Fix the MC disarming people, and we are good to go.

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15 minutes ago, TheMortemShadow said:

Alright, that's your opinion, like I said before Psychic Bolts and Absorb do benefit from it, but again it lowers the synergy between abilities because I can cast Absorb, but what if it were to disarm the enemy that I wanted to Mind Control? Nyx is my favorite frame and I have over 70% playtime on her. Chaos is the exact same as Irridiating Disarm, which doesn't make sense and only hurts her, why have two Warframes with the exact same ability? Although Nyx's is only a chance, it still happens enough to where it gets annoying. And even if we were to exclude MC from the passive's list of things to disarm, what if I wanted to MC an enemy that just got hit by Psychic Bolts? Or Chaos? Or Absorb? And I don't want to see enemies die at a fast rate, you're missing my point. Below are quotes from two Reddit threads I found with people complaining about the new passive. Chaos was great because it ALLOWED enemies to kill each other quickly, which was fun and enjoyable! And melee units don't hit harder in all cases, a Bombard who just got disarmed while in Chaos is a lot less useful than a Bombard who has his weapon with Chaos. I don't just press a button to watch enemies die at a fast rate, you're missing my point in the benefit that Chaos had over Irridiating Disarm in the sense that it ALLOWED enemies to kill each other or weaken each other. I rarely ever saw a Disarmed enemy kill another enemy, and if it did it's because the Tenno just weakened or tried to kill that enemy and another enemy killed it before the Tenno could. Besides, why should there be any cons with a passive!? Please explain why any ability should be nerfed by a passive? A passive which now almost makes MC useless in many situations? Why should a passive even require ability casting, it's not a passive then. You're trying to look at the benefits and maybe that's because you run low-duration, but I see no synergy between the abilities now, I see Chaos' firepower being weakened by that. Plus, like you said, if you want to press a button and see enemies get disarmed, I suggest Loki.

" Yeah same, I play Nyx because I want to sit back and laugh at enemies killing each other" 

" Nyx: Ok Nyx has been getting the short stick a lot in warframe and this passive is just another nerf. When I confuse enemies my goal is to have them kill each other, not start slap fights because half of them dropped their weapons. This should have been like frosts passive, where enemies who melee nyx have a chance of becoming confused. This passive would be usefull, on theme, and help squishy nyx survive a little longer rather than annoying her players. (pls fix nyx DE)"

 

Im waiting for them to change Nyx's 2 to invisibility...then her transition to the loki master race will be complete....

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29 minutes ago, Wolfnrun said:

I think it's intended? or else it would take longer to reach max range 

Well, looking at numbers, the range before is the same as the range now. Before, least with my build, I could coat most of Draco with Overload. Now, Discharge says that the range is the same, but it barely covers half the same range. So, unless the numbers are displaying incorrectly, I think the range is bugging. That or it's not physically spreading as it should and the damage numbers and tesla effect aren't showing up. 

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I'm in full support of the devs actually balancing the game and enforcing a mentality of actually playing. Let's be honest, most of the posts are likely about screaming "Nerfs! You killed X! The game is dead now!". Part of the problem is, players are small minded and selfish. They aren't looking at the overall health of the game. They have gotten accustomed to not playing the game the way it's intended to be played and are going to fight it.

But not all of the blame can be played on petty human behavior of players. I wish it could, but some of the blame does fall on the devs.

Some problems were just left too long and should have been dealt with earlier, like Trinity, who I argue is the most game breaking frame there is. While it's great that they've brought her healing ability more into line with other frames with healing abilities, they need to have the courage to deal with the ability that's the most damage to the overall balance and health of the game, and that's Energy Vampire. The band-aids they've put on that power by blocking it from working on frames who have energy drain toggles turned on is simply not going to cut it. Infinite energy at no cost is the biggest cheese tactic in the game. The game isn't even engaging at that point.

Then there are issues that should simply never have happened. Excalibur should have never been released in the state he was in. I said it from day one after experiencing it. "This is not a swordsman, this is a walking fluctus." Simple fact of the matter is that Excalibur is really not designed to encourage melee combat and EB made it worse. He should never have gone out the door with energy waves that did full damage. The waves should be there to soften enemies up while closing it to melee range.

To use a more human oriented analogy: while it would have been better to not get frostbite in the first place, it's better to snip a few toes off now than let those toes fester and rot and the whole foot needs to come off. Be happy it's just a few toes.

Edited by Ceryk
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Just now, LilyLincesa said:

Well, looking at numbers, the range before is the same as the range now. Before, least with my build, I could coat most of Draco with Overload. Now, Discharge says that the range is the same, but it barely covers half the same range. So, unless the numbers are displaying incorrectly, I think the range is bugging. That or it's not physically spreading as it should and the damage numbers and tesla effect aren't showing up. 

A lot of things really aren't going good for it, the rework. More problematic/nerfs then buffs...I'm expecting fixes and stuff next week 

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18 minutes ago, TheMortemShadow said:

" Nyx: Ok Nyx has been getting the short stick a lot in warframe and this passive is just another nerf. When I confuse enemies my goal is to have them kill each other, not start slap fights because half of them dropped their weapons. This should have been like frosts passive, where enemies who melee nyx have a chance of becoming confused. This passive would be usefull, on theme, and help squishy nyx survive a little longer rather than annoying her players. (pls fix nyx DE)"

 

And if you are getting hit by melee mobs as Nyx you are doing something terribly wrong.

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3 hours ago, giantconch said:

........

 

........

 

........

 

DE makes Ash an even more P42W frame, while taking away squishy frames survivability powers...

 

Waiting to see what you "fix" next...

 

Hopefully frosts globe, walls, roofs, floors can at some point in the future stop explosions and flames from magically passing through their surface...

 

***everything below was adding after much thought vvvv

 

Nullifier bubbles. Why do my punch through mods mean nothing against them?

 

Why do enemies who scale up endlessly, get increased health increased damage output AND increased damage reduction? Any two would make them OP as it is, all three makes it broken. Amor limit, HP limit, or removing their ability to 1hk entire squads would keep them challenging. As it stands, every. single. endurance run requires something in your squad to negate damage (which you have now ruined) something to buff your damage, then running the ridiculously OP tonkor squad.

 

You guys pretend that you want to fix warframe powers trivializing content but do nothing about the content trivializing players abilities. You are pretending there is balance, or balancing in place, but there isnt. You guys have tipped the scales away from the players having abilities that let them counter the enemy cheese and left the enemy cheese in. You basically gave in to the nerfherd who want this game to be like "oh you didnt bullet jump midair roll parkour extreme while unloading your entire ammo capacity into one enemy YOU LOSE"

 

I didnt give you money for the Vauban prime access because of how you are requiring constantly more and more resources to build weapons, frames, instead of consumables to deal with oversupplies and I am damn glad I didnt. Seeing how you have nerfed the frames who gave buffs to survivability and CC powers makes me doubly glad I did not.

 

Someone in the latter part of where the thread is as I'm editing this pointed out "You are taking away the crutch before fixing the broken leg" and that is probably the single most accurate way of looking at this situation I have seen yet.

Bump

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<feedback>

Something that DE should consider is there are ways of maintaining difficulty and adding to challenge without everything turning off our powers via null auras and one-shotting us via enemy scaling. Not every single sortie every single day needs to be "Eximus Stronghold (The Grind 2: Electric Boogaloo)"

Things that could be explored by DE instead of scaling infinitely are new types of AI enemies that try advanced tactics as you get higher and higher in enemy levels....

What if we had Infested that dropped from the ceiling on us, or perhaps crawled up from underneath the floor grates inside of our defensive line/bubble? Grineer that charged us with a body tackle or knock us into the air using large hammers? Corpus that attempt to blind players with oil, or slick the ground so we cant stop sliding past them?

What if a few bosses gained some Warframe like powers instead of just guns/missiles all the time that they could use to try and CC us, pull us in from range, go stealth, or maybe teleport, ect?

How about enemy formations, where they hide behind your team from every angle and jump out simultaneously in a pincer attacks, or perhaps enemies that deploy new kinds of traps on the floor like spike pits that change the terrain layout with pitfalls.

And for the player side, maybe give us a way to get alternative powers for our frames to encourage new playstyles and builds. Perhaps we could infect a frame with corruption to gain an altered versions of what we have access too, like a gas damage based ember for example, a hydroid that turns into a walking tentacle beast, or perhaps a mesa who is a master with sniper rifles or shotguns instead of pistols? Could fit in nicely with the corruption thing happening to our ships lore wise... These are just examples of things that could give the players a lot more variety to work with. Variety like that will cause us to think of new tactics to fight back, which encourages new builds and ultimately improves the game overall for us.

Just saying that the enemy doesn't have to always be bulletspongey oneshotting grunts hiding in immunity to Warframe power bubbles all the time to give us a challenge. </feedback>

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42 minutes ago, SiriusStarr said:

And if that's DE's attitude towards their devoted players, then they won't have a devoted playerbase for very long.

It's their attitude towards salty players, sure. Personally, I've been really enjoying Mag since the rework. I took top DPS in sortie 2 and 3 today. Maybe I'm just not devoted enough to see how bad she really is?

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Glad to be a part of Warframe, and I looove the changes. Even the nerfs aren't bad, they just require smarter play, new action. Keep up the good work.

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2 hours ago, SiriusStarr said:

Wat.  That's literally the exact opposite.  The broken thing is mob scaling.  The thing we've used to fix it is learning to play some niche builds that still scale into late game.

Eitrher can be seen as legs/crutches. Both need to be fixed. They chose frames first. Deal with it have some patience. Or dont and leave. All the same.

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4 minutes ago, Ceryk said:

I'm in full support of the devs actually balancing the game and enforcing a mentality of actually playing. The problem is, players are small minded and selfish. They aren't looking at the overall health of the game. They have gotten accustomed to not playing the game the way it's intended to be played and are going to fight it.

But not all of the blame can be played on petty human behavior of players. I wish it could, but some of the blame does fall on the devs.

Some problems were just left too long and should have been dealt with earlier, like Trinity, who I argue is the most game breaking frame there is. While it's great that they've brought her healing ability more into line with other frames with healing abilities, they need to have the courage to deal with the ability that's the most damage to the overall balance and health of the game, and that's Energy Vampire. The band-aids they've put on that power by blocking it from working on frames who have energy drain toggles turned on is simply not going to cut it. Infinite energy at no cost is the biggest cheese in the game.

Then there are issues that should simply never have happened. Excalibur should have never been released in the state he was in. I said it from day one after experiencing it. "This is not a swordsman, this is a walking fluctus." Simple fact of the matter is that Excalibur is really not designed to encourage melee combat and EB made it worse. He should never have gone out the door with energy waves that did full damage. The waves should be there to soften enemies up while closing it to melee range.

To use a more human oriented analogy: while it would have been better to not get frostbite in the first place, it's better to snip a few toes off now than let those toes fester and rot and the whole foot needs to come off. Be happy it's just a few toes.

None of this speaks to fixing enemy scaling. Some players are small-minded and selfish, and some are lazy, but some are tired. They don't want to deal with things "the right way" because it is frustrating and far beyond something that is enjoyably difficult that provides meaningful rewards; it is instead something that is a tremendous source of frustration that could, potentially, provide a meaningful reward. Why would you throw yourself into a unfun, needlessly difficult content while holding yourself to the concept of "fairness" and "balance" when you aren't even sure you're going to get what you want? When you'll more than likely get something you don't want or need? Why wouldn't you just say, "I'm going to do this in a way that lets me put in the minimum amount of effort because what I want demands I strap in for the long haul."

Moving on, incredibly strong abilities aren't brought along to be abused in low-level content, or even mid/high-level content, though you certainly can and get the same results as you would where you really wanted to bring strong frames and abilities: end-game. Right now, the way enemies scales produces end-game content that demands you squeeze every last drop you can from a frame and the weapon it carries, and players did just that - and because players are humans they found out that they don't have to squeeze nearly as hard if they use combination A over combination B.

You aren't wrong, some blame falls on the devs, but it is their exceptionally long-running blind eye to enemy scaling that is to blame; fortunately, they are going to be fixing that, or so they say, and I really hope they do. How they do so, what changes they implement, who knows, but I'll be much happier about seeing changes to Warframes and weapons after enemies no longer demand that you, the player, engage in practices that are effective and passive because they work much better than practices that are ineffective and active.

I want you, as a player, to listen to yourself and ask if it is really okay for you to see a set of nerfs and say, "But you didn't nerf ____ which is the real problem," but seemingly gloss over problems endemic to the game's structure itself.

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3 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Hello Tenno!

 

Maybe it's time to buff Flame Repellent? This post is going to be a bit longer than usual, but its length is just a reflection of our gratitude and investment in everything that's gone on in Warframe not just over the past 24 hours, but the past 3 years. Your feedback has allowed us to grow together – which I'll show you how shortly – so we must begin by thanking you for sticking around and providing us with the feedback you freely give.

We are less than 24 hours into the release of 18.13.0 at the time of this thread, and we're already breaking forum records:

GzYQTxm.png

It seems that every big game these days uses 'passionate' to describe their players when vocalization surges, but I think it slightly glosses over what is actually at play here with Warframe - especially if you consider our history. This surge is rooted in a fervor of perspectives – the quantity of the posts has obviously increased (and so has my vocabulary on learning new profanity), and as a result the top-tier quality we are used to in community discussions has as well. As a group you've highlighted the best of the best, and we've been doing our best to read all of the Hot topics across the forums/Reddit/etc in the short time window following release.

In Warframe's 3 years of being in Open Beta, we've seen the 'surge' - the astute veteran can likely correlate spikes on that graph with balance situations that feel familiar to 18.13.0's release (note the drop on the graph is when we migrated the forums). For a lot of you, this might be your first surge! If so, welcome to Warframe – where we do things to digital EXTREMES!

In direct respect to 18.13.0:

More changes are coming – I wish I could give you a list now of exactly what but the list can only be built over time this weekend the longer we spend playing and extrapolating feedback. It is with the best intentions that we are committed to reducing cheese. At this time – even with these best intentions of more engaging play - the fundamental issue for many of you is: no amount of engagement counters the enemy's cheese. A select few abilities that we touched 'worked' in the eyes of the players because you could fight fire with fire once you entered a specific threshold of content. The tight-rope of frustration is high, and the changing of the meta can be painful. In our eyes some meta elements simply harmed the quality of the gameplay taking place. However, 'finality' is not a word I'd ever associate with our Dev process, and as flawed as that may sound I think it's one of the reasons we're such a tight-knit community is because time and time again we set the course together. As the say, if you want an omelette you have to crack a few eggs (I don't actually know if they say that).  

In direct respect to what is 'familiar' with these surges:

There was a time we changed Stamina, voices surged (so sayeth the graph), and then we completely redid our entire Parkour & Melee System. Every time we shake things up – no matter how lightly - the impact is objectively better. We see more people are interested in the game, and more people realize the impact their collective constructive views have on the game. There are a few counter-narratives that often indicate the end of times, I've seen it a lot over the years, but ultimately things come out better and bigger as a result. I'm not saying it doesn't have growing pains, though!

It bears repeating that more changes are coming soon. We will be hotfixing like mad next week, and getting deeper into difficulty discussions in terms of the enemy. It's been a long time since we have looked at enemy scaling and their spiky damage output, and in that time you've found ways to deal with it.

I honestly can't think of anything I'd like to be doing more than playing Warframe right now, hashing out feedback together, and getting things ready for the next Hotfix. So if you see me in game all weekend, that's what I'm up to!

Please accept our experimentation - the messy and the clean - and be open to iteration – it's been a big part of Warframe's development and community history. Over the course of each release, you'll find so many of the changes, additions, and fixes exist because of these moments.

-[DE]Rebecca

thanks for all your hard work, keep it up. volt rework is great BTW but requires strenuous modding for, leaving in a place where his abilities cannot effectively synergise forcing you to sacrifice one or more of them. in my opinion a great way to fix this would to readjust the scaling of the abilities (so it doesn't require +200% power strength etc. because starter frames like volt shouldn't require as much modding as it does now (learn from an average excal build that anyone can pull off)) and/or redesign volt to encourage players to use a negative efficiency build (due to low energy costs and slightly under scaling capabilities) without the need of an EV trin or zenurik regen (a first which should of happened with the saryn rework).

Edited by Aquasurge
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3 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

The tight-rope of frustration is high, and the changing of the meta can be painful. In our eyes some meta elements simply harmed the quality of the gameplay taking place.

 

Well you can't take the powers of the Meta lightly. It's a dangerous and unpredictable force as ancient and mysterious as the Universe it permeates.

More on-point, though, I've tried out most of the frames that got major changes and/or re-works, and so far I'm not bothered by them at all. Mag still feels pretty good, Volt was a little tricky for the first couple of minutes, but overall it seems a decent improvement as well, Limbo...was a straight buff, so no complaints there. I only typically use Trin for EV anyway, so the Blessing "nerf" doesn't really affect me personally (I hope we can find a balance there at some point that makes everyone happy, though, even if it requires a focused reworking).

I've said it before and I suppose it bears repetition: I've been pleased by DE's progress and hard work as a company to this point, and I don't expect they'll disappoint me in the future. Warframe's my #1 fallback game since it came out--that is to say that whenever I'm done 100%'ing other major new releases that catch my interest, I return to Warframe (next up, No Man's Sky if it isn't a stinker). DE's earned my trust, and the DEvs have earned my respect, and it's hard to break that with me...takes something insidious like outright malicious lies or some sort of visceral betrayal, and I don't think it's in DE's character as a company to go down that road.

As such, I'm good with the changes. Nothing struck me as over-the-top insane and beyond redemption. They've stated multiple, numerous times that they're going to be tweaking a lot of the changes they've made until everything feels proper, so hopefully people will stop their self-mutilation and practice some patience and level-headedness a bit.

I'm just waitin' for my Lucky Kavat, Fortuna, to grace my Orbiter with its presence. ;)

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16 minutes ago, EvilChaosKnight said:

Tisk tisk tisk. So many words which say such a short thing. "To hell with potential end-game benefits, I can no long watch Saturn mobs kill each other as fast as they used to."

1st of all. A concept you seem to have failed to grasp even with 70% play time on Nyx. Chaos'ed enemies ARE NOT YOUR FRIENDS. In fact they still often prefer the objective to killing each other which is increasingly obvious during Excavs, Defs and Interceptions. So calling chaos'ed Bombard "useful" is... debateable. Extremely so. Chaos'ed Scorch or Napalm actually is anything BUT useful to you since huge AOE has no friends either. Thanks to this passive, I might actually remove some of them preventing my spontaneous combustion.

Now onto the MC issue. So now you have to find your target first and then Chaos the rest, not the other way around. Well, fine by me personally. In fact, most of my MC targets are the ones which will help me like Healers or Arctic eximi. 2nd most used MC is to make a specific enemy stop harming me or my ally if Chaos failed me here. And only on the last place is to use the MC as a DMG boost. Why? Because enemy damage to health pool ratio is... silly. AFAIK they are worse than Lato of the same lvl.

So in the end, all I see is overreacting over... actually nothing. Fix the MC disarming people, and we are good to go.

Please explain the end-game benefits as being the same as Loki, if I wanted to disarm I'd play Loki! Plus, I know enemies under the effect of Chaos "aren't my friends" which is why I keep a distance from them with a bow and watch as they kill each other while still killing them. Plus, even in end-game content Chaos enemies are still able to kill each other, something I don't think you realize. Below is another quote I found, it seems like you are the only one who is benefitting from this as a Nyx player in which case if you like disarm so much, there's this other great Warframe called Loki! Keep the two separate, again Chaos has exactly become Irridiating Disarm, there needs to be some difference and there was before this passive! And yet you still didn't address all the issues:

What if Absorb, Chaos, or Psychic Bolts just disarmed the enemy I intented to MC (which happens frequently, and no don't just say, "Oh, guess you have to MC them before." That's irrelevant, this passive shouldn't hurt her in any playstyle you wish to play her)? Why should two abilities be the exact same (yes, Nyx's is only a chance, but it still happens enough to where she is another Loki. I think you have "failed to grasp the concept" that Warframes need to have separate abilities)? Why should a passive require ability casting because then it isn't a passive anymore? So no, we are not "good to go" you are failing to realize the tremendous amount of cons to this passive that has hurt Nyx, a passive shouldn't hurt a Warframe whatsoever! Yes, we can still MC an enemy that is disarmed, but the benefits of MCing that enemy while it still has a weapon is better, is it not? Why should we have to accept that? So instead of saying, "Oh you failed to grasp this concept" realize the issues I'm addressing instead of completely ignoring them in your rebuttal and only wanting to see your side of the story. And if you like disarming so much, I really suggest Loki or even a Chesa Kubrow. 

After a good bit of testing in the Simulacrum with Chaos and Psychic Bolts, it seems like Nyx's disarm chance is pretty close to 1/6. I was consistently getting 3-4 disarms per 20-mob Chaos and averaging 1 per Psychic Bolts. Power strength did not change this. Slash ticks from Bolts never proc'd the disarm.

So yeah, around 17%, not enough to be relied upon (from a "make Psychic Bolts great again" standpoint) and just enough to piss off people trying to keep one particular enemy under Mind Control.

RIP holding onto Bombards to draw aggro for you and kill weaker enemies. RIP holding onto Corrupted Gunners to help strip Nullifier bubbles. You get a few uses and then you're off to find another enemy.

Personally, I'm going to file Nyx's passive under "passives which are arguably worse for the frame than not having one at all" alongside Nezha, Mirage, and Zephyr (for people who find their unique parkour annoying). It should have been <10% (like having no passive at all) or >30% (so you could build around it). It exists in the twilight of "on rare occasions it works and sometimes it completely ruins whatever you were doing."

As someone who really likes Nyx and has seen Loki pull her job out from under her, this is really disappointing. Something like "controlled/confused targets have a 10% chance to disarm allies on bullet/melee hit" would have been FAR better.

I'm not salty, though I'm probably coming across that way--really, just a touch disappointed. I'm just tired so I can't words right.

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12 minutes ago, LornMind said:

None of this speaks to fixing enemy scaling. Some players are small-minded and selfish, and some are lazy, but some are tired. They don't want to deal with things "the right way" because it is frustrating and far beyond something that is enjoyably difficult that provides meaningful rewards; it is instead something that is a tremendous source of frustration that could, potentially, provide a meaningful reward. Why would you throw yourself into a unfun, needlessly difficult content while holding yourself to the concept of "fairness" and "balance" when you aren't even sure you're going to get what you want? When you'll more than likely get something you don't want or need? Why wouldn't you just say, "I'm going to do this in a way that lets me put in the minimum amount of effort because what I want demands I strap in for the long haul."

Moving on, incredibly strong abilities aren't brought along to be abused in low-level content, or even mid/high-level content, though you certainly can and get the same results as you would where you really wanted to bring strong frames and abilities: end-game. Right now, the way enemies scales produces end-game content that demands you squeeze every last drop you can from a frame and the weapon it carries, and players did just that - and because players are humans they found out that they don't have to squeeze nearly as hard if they use combination A over combination B.

You aren't wrong, some blame falls on the devs, but it is their exceptionally long-running blind eye to enemy scaling that is to blame; fortunately, they are going to be fixing that, or so they say, and I really hope they do. How they do so, what changes they implement, who knows, but I'll be much happier about seeing changes to Warframes and weapons after enemies no longer demand that you, the player, engage in practices that are effective and passive because they work much better than practices that are ineffective and active.

I want you, as a player, to listen to yourself and ask if it is really okay for you to see a set of nerfs and say, "But you didn't nerf ____ which is the real problem," but seemingly gloss over problems endemic to the game's structure itself.

At no point did I say that that was all there was to it. I am well aware that there's a huge number of things that need to be dealt with in terms of balancing this game. But we're not talking about those issues here. We're talking about 18.13, which is about balancing a number of frames that are blatantly over or under powered.

Edited by Ceryk
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30 minutes ago, Joel_The_Jackle said:

Im waiting for them to change Nyx's 2 to invisibility...then her transition to the loki master race will be complete....

Yep, at this point I'm just waiting for them to say, "Nyx is now just a redesigned skin of Loki! Fooled you guys, thinking you guys can have a separate Warframe with slightly different abilities, hahaha." 

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I've accepted that a large part of Warframe, both in-game and with the changes that come to it, involves patience and accepting/adapting to change. That, and whenever nerfs or buffs come along, the PC players are basically the guinea pigs in a live testing environment.

Good luck in the future! I'll still be here watching/playing until I can't :D

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