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[DE]Rebecca

Dev Workshop Part 3: 18.13.0 Aftermath & Beginnings.

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18 minutes ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

You're feedback has allowed us to grow together

Rebecca pls...

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12 minutes ago, (XB1)NecroEric420 said:

I never got to experience a dagger to the heart like my old buddy used to talk about until now because, im newer... trinity was perfect in every way and didnt need to be touched... i can deal with any other change.... :(

 

You guys do great work but this one really hurt me.

Also just a side note but an aura range and xp share isnt very fun... i think it should just be universal and infinite range. especially in archwing.

 

cheers. thanks for breaking my heart. im sure you will many times again because you cant leave anything alone even when its perfect.

 

I felt the same way to frost changes back in feb 2014. The xp range has literally always been there, its nothing new. Whats new is that now we can see if we are in range of each other.

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Alright, now I have alot more respect to DE now, thank you for this Reb, but can I ask you a question, cuz this worries me, what of the changes of Bladestrom & Limbo?, will we see more updates on the changes soon?, I ask this so urngrly cuz I am unable to play my main Ash Prime and at all play Warframe, due to the risk of this upcoming change

 

Thank you  

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Just now, Zhoyzu said:

I felt the same way to frost changes back in feb 2014. The xp range has literally always been there, its nothing new. Whats new is that now we can see if we are in range of each other.

oddly enough those frost changes were exactly what my friend was talking about and were the main reason he has stopped playing. DE tries to do the best they can but can never leave anything alone even when its perfect and balanced. but thats what Open Beta is. lol

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Looking forward for an enemy scaling and AI pass, time to do something for the ROOT problem for once!

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I feel almost guilty reading this despite me not contributing to anything that would create the feeling of guilt...Did something really bad happen??? 

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Just now, (XB1)NecroEric420 said:

oddly enough those frost changes were exactly what my friend was talking about and were the main reason he has stopped playing. DE tries to do the best they can but can never leave anything alone even when its perfect and balanced. but thats what Open Beta is. lol

i went back and looked at the graph DERebecca posted. You can see the spike when those frost changes hit

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DE, some times leaving things as is is a bad idea, like coptor, it was cool but you knew it will be bad because it were limiting our melee choices, the same can be said here, some changes were long overdue yet were ignored :/

Anyway, if all this changes in effort to reduce cheese then start with enemies, maybe its time to work on Damage 3.0 or Enemy 2.0/ 3.0?

The current enemy scaling and the way we have to deal with them (elements) were the start of this cheese, if reducing or reworking the math for damage then we may not have to worry about the cheesing IMO.

Anyway please start with enemies then see how frames / weapons / elements should scale / deal with them!  

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If there's one thing I really appreciate about Warframe, it's the progressive development. I mean, I think I could say the game I played when I first joined is not the game I'm playing now, and yet here I still am, watching the game unfold and blossom. It's a nice, likely unintentional, peek into how a game idea can evolve over time, and sort of how game-design can be carried out.

I don't mind us being buffed/nerfed or enemies being buffed/nerfed as long as it creates a more fulfilling experience. I mean, yeah, it can be fun to trivialize game content, but it's a short-lived novelty. It's the same kind of trivializing cheese that comes with cheat codes in games; it's entertaining, but it dies quickly, especially once you experience everything. 

Hopefully, through this progressive development, we can find the epicenter of balance between what the player is able to do and what they're put up against to create as fulfilling an experience as possible. Might take awhile, but I'm guessing Warframe has that kind of longevity.

All I can say is 'Good Luck', and we'll see if there's a method to reach that apex balance.

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Alright, so here are my only concerns that I have seen. I would like to preface this with the fact that I am a ranged offensive player who does not ever play support or melee tank, so I never/rarely play Trinity or Valkyr, since I can't build Trinity to murder things, and Valkyr because not my style.

 

Now, I do have some comments on Volt and on Mag

 

Volt:

Noticed little difference in Shock, which there is little difference so that is to be expected

I haven't seen the drops appear when I use speed,  though I'm not sure if Volt CAN see his drops for Speed.

Shield seems really cool  for those who want to go all riot officer and wield a giant shield.

The only complaint comes with Discharge. The new Tesla Coil is a cool mechanic for Volt's ult, and it works well. However, taking away his air casting for his ultimate is more nerfing than the Coils buff. One of the best strategies I've seen used not just by me but many others is to use Discharge in Midair to ensure that you get as much coverage as possible, especially in multi-level stages, examples being the circular Void Tree rooms in Void/Derelict, the two level Grineeer Defence tile, and others like those where enemies are storming towards you to tear your face off from various levels of the area. So to lose that capability takes away a big chunk of Volt's use for not only offence but defence in slowing down enemies that aren't on your level yet. 

 

His passive, I like it because I'm always a sl*t for damage bonuses (Glass cannon's for the win) but I do think it's funny since it's basically "He scoots his feet along the ground and generates static electricity that deals more damage on next damage you deal." I love it. "Alright, guys, give me a sec, I need to run around to boost my damage."  "How are you going to generate more static? This is ICE!" "ALRIGHT GUYS, GIVE ME A SEC, I NEED TO RUN AROUND TO BOOST MY DAMAGE"

 

Mag:

Pull-Nice seems to work well with new way her abilities work

Magnetize: Seems to be a bit inconsistent in that sometimes if you cast it and shoot into it and kill the enemy, sometimes the sphere will vanish, sometimes it will stay there. I also don't seem to be damaging enemies with it, and it sounded like it was supposed to deal DoT to enemies in the sphere. 

Shield Polarize: It's been said before, but it doesn't explode on ending. I've seen some people say you have to have 100%+ duration for it to detonate at the ending, which for power builds is a bit aggravating. 

Crush: I like the new animations. Maybe it's just that I never noticed, but the enemies feel floatier and they look like they are actually folding in on themselves. Before, they always just hung in the air for me. 

her passive is pretty nice. I always have a carrier, so it's a bit moot, but cool.

 

 

One issue with both is that I'm not sure if they're damage will really hold up later game, but THAT SAID, we have been told that they are planning to rebalance ALL Frame abilities that deal damage so that they scale like they should to be usable in end game content. So, once THAT happens, then this may go away.  

 

 

In response to "Maybe replacing Limbo's Third" PLEASE do. Maybe just incorporate the bonus damage into the base mechanics of the Rift plane, so that Limbo always deals extra damage to enemies in the Rift. But as it is, the third really isn't that useful. That said, some alternates for it could be: 

Rift Door: Similar to Nova's Wormhole, except for that you can go back and forth from either point, and can see through the rift door. though enemies can also see and shoot through you, and you can shoot through it as well. "Limbo rips open a tunnel through the Rift Plane, allowing for passage between the two points simultaneously." 

Rift Fissue: Similar to Vaubahn's triplines, these will buff allies speed and damage resistance when they cross this threshold, but slow down and trip enemies that cross over it. Running-ragdolled Walking-staggered

 

Rift Blast/Wave: "Limbo uses his influence over the Rift to cause the plane to collapse in an area, dealing AoE damage to all within the radius./Limbo sends a surge of Rift Energy hurtling towards his foes, damaging them and briefly banishing them to the Rift."

Edited by LilyLincesa
Forgot to mention Limbo. For some reason called Discharge, Overload.
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3 minutes ago, LegionCynex said:

Alright, now I have alot more respect to DE now, thank you for this Reb, but can I ask you a question, cuz this worries me, what of the changes of Bladestrom & Limbo?, will we see more updates on the changes soon?, I ask this so urngrly cuz I am unable to play my main Ash Prime and at all play Warframe, due to the risk of this upcoming change

 

Thank you  

IMO anything that happens to limbo is an improvement. He has no team synergy and barely synergizes with himself.  I am a little surprised that they said they were gonna touch on ash though. It took them so long to get bladestorm working without bugging out hard. Seems odd that they're gonna go back and fiddle with it some more.

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My concerns is mainly the reworks,

Shock : Nothing changed and it is not based of damage or stun... Increase chain links damage and stun and I think that's it's 

Speed : Needs to be a bit faster and a slightly faster reload speed with a longer duration and some synergies

ES : Just to many drawbacks and a short duration with limited shields, I think the shield should already be electrified and a little taller/round

I like discharge, just needs more range, I don't mean to come off as complaining but some things are worth taking a look at... 

 

Edited by Wolfnrun

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36 minutes ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

More changes are coming – I wish I could give you a list now of exactly what but the list can only be built over time this weekend the longer we spend playing and extrapolating feedback. It is with the best intentions that we are committed to reducing cheese. At this time – even with these best intentions of more engaging play - the fundamental issue for many of you is: no amount of engagement counters the enemy's cheese.

I welcome more changes and think you guys are taking the first of important steps.

For the highlighted, it's usually the case of being faced with hordes dealing very high amounts of damage or flat out one-hit killing players. Some of these attacks should be telegraphed with a warning message - some examples of those attacks:

- Bombard rockets.

- Napalm projectiles.

- Sniper lock-ons (Nullifiers, Ballista, and ETC)

- Bursa rockets and etc.

 

I also think the devs should consider implementing a Shield Gate with the removal of player cheese, if they haven't thought about it already. Here is a very detailed thread about shield gating for Warframes:

 

Edited by EmptyDevil
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You know, DE, if you want to convert many (if not most) of those screams of rage and frustration into cheers, you should start by telling us when and how (in some detail!) do you plan to tackle the "other side" of cheese. I mean, nerfing cheesy warframe abilities is one thing, but without addressing the extremely cheesy enemy scaling first you're essentially breaking things more than you're fixing them. 

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Can't +1 enough.

I'm very very happy and proud of you, Digital Extremes, for finally putting your foot down, saying "what is happening is bad for our game and we need to stop it before it's too late"; for openly stating your commitment to dealing with obvious balance issues that have needed attention for a long time and removing the cheesy, broken meta that has begun to plague both the game and community over the recent few months.

You're saving this game from what I've seen as a big downward spiral, and I really just cannot state how comforting this is to see and how elated it makes me. I wish you guys the best, keep doing what you do and making this game and community the best there is! And of course- thank you, for all the hard work you put in every day and every year to do so.

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OK fair, i know you will work for the best but pliz do not take to long heh.

i all ready put this in the valkir tread but here i go again

1. Make sip line to drag more than 1 enemy maybe something like 5-8

2. Keep and aura around of valkir for half of the initial cast that slow down enemies, the more they get close the more they are slow down like the initial cast.

3 Give it more range, like more range!, and make it so it can`t be interrupted with enemy animations.

4. Reduce the side of  the Aura of suicide bubble, and make it so if you jump in a nullfiller bubble you take half of the damage and not blow up in cosmic dust.  

In a side note "some of the worst things have been done with the best intentions"~ 

Edited by kajiss1
Side note
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Sorry, but no. I can not accept this.

"Rework" supposes that you will make frame weaker in one thing and better in another or change their gameplay mechanics for better experience, but these "reworks" didn't really improve these frames gameplay experience. Not to mention broken enemy scales and super-cheesy enemy abilities like eximus energy leech who drains energy behind walls from 30m radius.

Sorry, but I can't accept these nerfes while we have broken enemy scales with no cap.

Sorry, but I can't accept these nerfes while Bombards AOE damage goes through Frost's snowglobe, but our AOE damage doesn't penetrate Eximus's mobile snowglobe.

I want, but but I can not accept your explanations from 1st post of this thread. When things will actually change for the better, then I can trust you again. But for now, I will take a break from Warframe.

Edited by SonicSonedit
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I don't know where to put my feedback for the passives, so I'm going to put them here. Will there be changes to the newly added passives (or some old ones like Chroma's) based on player feedback? Some are more lacking than others and require very specific situations such as co-op, ability casting, or specific tilesets which then it isn't a passive anymore. My favorite Warframe, Nyx, was hurt by her new passive as it hurts two of her abilities, Mind Control and Chaos. It helps Absorb and Psychic Bolts, but then it lowers the synergy between the abilities, like what if I just Absorbed and an enemy is disarmed that I wanted to Mind Control? Absorb can be used to knock down enemies, allowing for easier Mind Control, but now with the new passive it lowers that synergy. And with Chaos, Chaos has become Irridiating Disarm, which makes 0 sense to me. Why have two Warframes with the same abilities? Although Nyx's is only a chance, it still happens enough where it gets frustrating and it feels like I'm playing Loki. Chaos was great in the sense that enemies were able to kill each other easily, but now it is exactly like Irridiating Disarm. Her new passive has hurt Nyx, please change it according to feedback. I know some players say her new passive is great, but they have yet to play her or don't play her nearly enough to understand her abilities and how they synergize together somewhat, but the passive has ruined that even with the small chance. There shouldn't be a chance for that, I'd rather have no passive with her than this passive. It especially hurts when you guys even said, "Oh, don't worry, Mind Control will only disarm them after the ability ends.", did you not think of the numerous amount of times Nyx players tend to Mind Control an enemy they've already Mind Controlled? Like please listen to the feedback on these passives, I can't play with Nyx anymore because the passive just frustrates me while playing her. I really respect that you guys put this post, but I really hope to see changes soon. 

Thank you. 

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"It is with the best intentions that we are committed to reducing cheese." I'm gonna quote Alan Grant here & say "Some of the worst things imaginable have been done with the best intentions." It's clearly so. I just don't understand WHY you would nerf so hard many of the top tier frames like this BEFORE fixing the ridiculous enemy scaling. The logic really should have been scaling first then "reworks". Not looking forward to this update on console at all & for the first time since it came out on console, I think I'll be taking a break.

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Then please change enemy scaling or give us a realistic way to catch up a bit? Nerfing frames so the even narrower window of broken has to match up to the rest of the broken isn't going to help in the long run...

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I hope quite a few of you realize that these changes are hinting towards them changing the scaling on enemies. It may not come until U19, but these changes do point towards it.

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" no amount of engagement counters the enemy's cheese. "

"... and getting deeper into difficulty discussions in terms of the enemy. It's been a long time since we have looked at enemy scaling and their spiky damage output, and in that time you've found ways to deal with it. "

Great to see that the devs acknowledges and understands our plight after all. Thanks for this post Rebecca, this kind of feedback from the dev team is exactly what we needed, especially in times of drastic changes like these.

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2 minutes ago, TheEternalJester said:

I hope quite a few of you realize that these changes are hinting towards them changing the scaling on enemies. It may not come until U19, but these changes do point towards it.

Backwards thinking at its finest.

Btw, thx for the effort and updates but this time it is taken too far.

"... and getting deeper into difficulty discussions in terms of the enemy. It's been a long time since we have looked at enemy scaling and their spiky damage output, and in that time you've found ways to deal with it. "

And now you take those means away from us.

Edited by DemonUnicornLV
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