Dev Workshop Part 3: 18.13.0 Aftermath & Beginnings.

[SiriusStarr]

20 minutes ago, motorfirebox said:

Crutches are for problems that will resolve themselves in time. In games, the first consideration has to be the player experience. You have to get that right, then build challenges appropriate to that experience.

Nerfing the only frames that can handle high-level content in a fun fashion HARMS player experience...

[UFOLoche]

1 minute ago, TheMortemShadow said:

THANK YOU! Someone understands that us Nyx players are furious at this point because we saw this coming when they announced the passive! Yes, they become disarmed after Mind Control ends, but what if I wanted to Mind Control that enemy again? Chaos has become Irridiating Disarm which lowers the effectiveness of Chaos as it helped kill off enemies quickly as they killed each other with their weapons. I'm so frustrated with this passive and I thank you for understanding that! 

As a person who played Nyx in T3-T4D/S for the longest time, and still uses her occasionally(I have too many frames, I swear..it's hard to use them all), I was confused when they mentioned that passive.  Honestly, if it affected her 2/3/4, I would've been...alright with it, I guess?  As a majority of the enemies would still have their weapons with Chaos.  But the fact that it affects Mind Control boggles my mind, and makes me wonder what they were thinking.

[Kettunen]

This is what I love about WF: it may be cheesy and grindy as hell but its delicious brokenness just begs you to stay and see it getting fixed. Forums are the true endgame.

[TheMortemShadow]

6 minutes ago, UFOLoche said:

As a person who played Nyx in T3-T4D/S for the longest time, and still uses her occasionally(I have too many frames, I swear..it's hard to use them all), I was confused when they mentioned that passive.  Honestly, if it affected her 2/3/4, I would've been...alright with it, I guess?  As a majority of the enemies would still have their weapons with Chaos.  But the fact that it affects Mind Control boggles my mind, and makes me wonder what they were thinking.

Exactly, Nyx is my main Warframe and I have over 70% of my playtime with her. Her Mind Control is now useless sometimes because the passive has destroyed some synergy between the abilities. For example, I sometimes knock down enemies with Absorb to Mind Control them, but now sometimes Absorb will disarm them. Or with Chaos, I saw that it will disarm some enemies and not all, it still hurts Chaos because Chaos was great in the sense that it allowed all enemies to kill each other quickly compared to Irridiating Disarm. Plus, I sometimes have to Chaos the room and then Mind Control, but again that passive will disarm them sometimes and I sit there not knowing what to do now. 

Edited May 28, 2016 by TheMortemShadow

[Zarlockk]

All changes made have valid reason behind them but problem is way deeper than just nerf x and buff y.

Mirage nerf was expected but just look how long it took for community to start abusing blind prism and take into consideration why community started to abuse it. The reason why this abuse started is why many nerf/buff threads appear. Dont want to delve into this in this post.

I like most of the 18.13 but some nerfs were overkill and pointless.

 

[ZhurZhur]

Not every one is going to like every thing you do. You can listen to them but as long as your trying that is all that really should matter. (Unless trying results in more mag nerfs please shes been through enough).

[Cray]

Call me cynical, Rebecca, but a lot of this post feels like damage control to me. As in someone realized the forums were on fire, and asked you to step in and put a positive spin on things.

 

1 minute ago, TheMortemShadow said:

Exactly, Nyx is my main Warframe and I have over 70% of my playtime with her. Her Mind Control is now useless sometimes because the passive has destroyed some synergy between the abilities. For example, I sometimes knock down enemies with Absorb to Mind Control them, but now sometime Absorb will disarm them. Or with Chaos, I saw that it will disarm some enemies and not all, it still hurts Chaos because Chaos was great in the sense that it allowed enemies to kill each other quickly compared to Irridiating Disarm. Plus, I sometimes have to Chaos the room and then Mind Control, but again that passive will disarm them sometimes and I sit there not knowing what to do now. 

An expansion to Mind Control is needed: On cast, enemy will recover their weapon if they previously lost it.

[motorfirebox]

4 minutes ago, SiriusStarr said:

Nerfing the only frames that can handle high-level content in a fun fashion HARMS player experience...

That depends entirely on what "fun" means. Personally, I had a lot of fun slaughtering perma-blinded enemies the first time I went on a run with a Mirage. The second time, I was bored.

And frankly, none of these nerfs have destroyed any of the frames' ability to handle high-level content. Excal is still a destructo-turret, he just has to get a little closer. Trinity is still a mass-healing damage-reducer, only you can't be on the other end of the map and the damage reduction doesn't automatically trivialize incoming damage. Mag doesn't completely trivialize Corpus anymore, but in exchange she's quite powerful against all factions.

[IceColdHawk]

41 minutes ago, Lijka said:

Some would tell you that you're loosing "thousands of veteran players because the game is too easy" and I am finding it hard to phatom whether they seriously believe it or are so desperate in their claims, since follwoing their logic and demands, they would create a game where there are only veteran players, since vast majority of the new players would be discouraged by the difficulty, people in question would crank up to ridiculous levels.

People leave when they have everything and there are no challenges ahead of them, that much is a fact in every online game. However you do not create those challenges by making the existing content difficult for everyone (those who play for a long time and are "hardcore" players who have top gear (mods in this case) and the skill to beat every difficulty be it by experience or by natural twitch-reflexes, that really not all of us have, as wel las new and casual players, but by adding new content, new raids, new game modes, new nightmare conditions and so on.

Look into adding options, not taking them away. Give every node two modes: normal and nightmare, add much more nm conditions like: "Crowd control abilities disabled", "Exalted weapons disabled" and so on. Add a proper group finding tool which will allow players to choose what frames they wish to see in their teams and which they don't. Look for solutions like that and work towards them, since the goal should be to cater to many types of players not only one. It would undoubtedly be a long process but wouldn't it be worth it?

By nerfing you take away the choice and you satisfy only part of the community. There is a reason that so many people use so called "cheese". Two major ones: they find at least part of the content too challenging and want to make it easier and/or they simply like and want to be op. Can you honestly say, hand on heart, that their preferences are worse or wrong? There is a reason for this uproar, don't you think?

If you, despite all, decide to go with the nerfs then why not start with the one that seems to be the biggest issue: enemy scaling (excavators not scaling) and then make adjustments. Create enviroment where cheese is not needed, then take away the cheese if you really have to. Also, why are the much needed buffs not a priorty over the nerfs? You seem content to do reworks and buffs slowly and hastily apply really pointless passives (some of them) while applying nerfs like this seemingly out of nowhere.

Lastly, I am sure your marketing people are aware of it, but it's the people who think the game is too hard or the way it should be are the people that are much more likely to buy platinum to compenaste for lack of time/skill/whatever, than those who find it too easy, because they've achieved everything and have everything. Again, there is a reason for that.

I am glad you like "extremes" but most people don't, so please, look for middle ground, which again, is adding choice for both groups, rather than responding to wishes of one.

Sincerely,

Lijka

Edit: I've forgotten to write a very important thing: many people play Warframe because it isn't another generic shooter but because you play characters that have awesome, ***-kicking, unique powers. Please, remember that we want to be able to rely on our powers or we would have played something else. It's not about dakka-dakka-dakka, it's about swish-swish-swish ;)

Quoted for Truth. Very nicely written. And i, as a long-term player can only agree with this.

[SiriusStarr]

1 minute ago, motorfirebox said:

That depends entirely on what "fun" means. Personally, I had a lot of fun slaughtering perma-blinded enemies the first time I went on a run with a Mirage. The second time, I was bored.

And frankly, none of these nerfs have destroyed any of the frames' ability to handle high-level content. Excal is still a destructo-turret, he just has to get a little closer. Trinity is still a mass-healing damage-reducer, only you can't be on the other end of the map and the damage reduction doesn't automatically trivialize incoming damage. Mag doesn't completely trivialize Corpus anymore, but in exchange she's quite powerful against all factions.

Excalibur is not a high-tier frame, unless you're cowering in a corner with a frost bubble.  Trinity's damage reduction has been halved or more, harming her personal tank and basically removing her ability to help her allies survive.  Mag is utterly useless at high tier, since she has fixed damages.  Yes, magnetize scales some with weapon damage, but it takes more time than just shooting the enemy in question.  Valkyr has been destroyed at high tier, since her energy drain is now exceedingly high (3/s or more) and she needs 20 meters of open space to come out of 4, which you will never find in a high-tier survival (not to mention her annoying visual line spam now).  Mirage's prism is pretty much useless now as its damage doesn't scale, and the blind is super finicky, making her just a weapon-damage buffing frame with too little survivability.

I'm not talking about midgame (T3/T4).  Midgame is fine.  Whatever.  You can run 1 rotation of T4 with a fricking unmodded Zephyr if you dodge well enough.  I'm talking about raids and sorties (mostly sortie 2/3 on survival).

Regardless, I'm not going to argue with you.  If you want to believe they haven't been gutted, you are welcome to live in whatever world you choose.  Meanwhile, I'll be playing a game that isn't frustrating and boring.

[EvilChaosKnight]

17 minutes ago, TheMortemShadow said:

THANK YOU! Someone understands that us Nyx players are furious at this point because we saw this coming when they announced the passive! Yes, they become disarmed after Mind Control ends, but what if I wanted to Mind Control that enemy again? Chaos has become Irridiating Disarm which lowers the effectiveness of Chaos as it helped kill off enemies quickly as they killed each other with their weapons. I'm so frustrated with this passive and I thank you for understanding that! 

I don't wanna be THAT guy but at what levels can enemies actually KILL themselves faster with Chaos? Since even on T3 and T4 leave alone sorties all I am seeing is mutual tickling. You might call her passive an inderect nerf, but MC aside, all her other abilities benefit from it pretty damn a lot on mid-high levels.

[motorfirebox]

Just now, SiriusStarr said:

Excalibur is not a high-tier frame, unless you're cowering in a corner with a frost bubble.  Trinity's damage reduction has been halved or more, harming her personal tank and basically removing her ability to help her allies survive.  Mag is utterly useless at high tier, since she has fixed damages.  Yes, magnetize scales some with weapon damage, but it takes more time than just shooting the enemy in question.  Valkyr has been destroyed at high tier, since her energy drain is now exceedingly high (3/s or more) and she needs 20 meters of open space to come out of 4, which you will never find in a high-tier survival (not to mention her annoying visual line spam now).  Mirage's prism is pretty much useless now as its damage doesn't scale, and the blind is super finicky, making her just a weapon-damage buffing frame with too little survivability.

I'm not talking about midgame (T3/T4).  Midgame is fine.  Whatever.  You can run 1 rotation of T4 with a fricking unmodded Zephyr if you dodge well enough.  I'm talking about raids and sorties (mostly sortie 2/3 on survival).

Regardless, I'm not going to argue with you.  If you want to believe they haven't been gutted, you are welcome to live in whatever world you choose.  Meanwhile, I'll be playing a game that isn't frustrating and boring.

*shrug* Don't let the door hit you.

[Chroia]

2 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

the fundamental issue for many of you is: no amount of engagement counters the enemy's cheese.

This may be the best tl;dr of the issue I've seen expressed.

I have no problem with your removing cheese (more than that, even: I actively dislike cheese. It spoils the game.) as long as you stop simultaneously requiring it.

 

Edit:

Seeing you say that this will actually, concertedly, be looked at is heartening.

Maybe I'm just too optimistic.

Still, *fingers crossed*.

Edited May 28, 2016 by Chroia

[LZWilde]

2 hours ago, [DE]Rebecca said:

Words and sentences.

Remember that road to hell is paved with good intentions. All these reworks were premature, you can't just rework (nerf) frames, but leave enemy scaling as it is and call it a day.

Frustration piles up and people starts leaving.

[(PSN)WiiConquered]

This was my biggest fear, and it's good to hear you guys are taking steps to deal with it.

Please note that console players won't want a month or more where enemies are broken compared to players. Please hold off updating us until the enemies are fixed.

This could be a huge step forward for Warframe. Done right, and I might even be able to get my friends IRL back into it (7 quit over the past couple years) and I'm sure many others could say the same. Between this, the ongoing mission reworks, new tilesets to reduce staleness, the Archwing rework, the new damage and mod changes, and the new Starchart, there's a lot of potential.

However, you have to go through with it, and you have to keep the communication up. Otherwise many of the players who went from optimistic to bitter and cynical will go even further down that path, perhaps past the point of no return.

Edited May 28, 2016 by (PS4)WiiConquered

[LilyLincesa]

54 minutes ago, Wolfnrun said:

Effect duration? OH THAT! Sooo the ability finishes being used after 4 seconds and then the duration begins, it takes 4 seconds to reach max range before being able to recast...I want bonus damage on enemies affected by electric procs 

I tested this, it is not duration based. At least, not the range of the Electric wave. I just took Volt P out for a spin, once with Stretch and Duration mods on, and once with just Stretch, and the range was just the same. So I 'm pretty sure at this stage, it's a bug his Range isn't being affected. Or at least, the range of Discharge.

[TheMortemShadow]

17 minutes ago, EvilChaosKnight said:

I don't wanna be THAT guy but at what levels can enemies actually KILL themselves faster with Chaos? Since even on T3 and T4 leave alone sorties all I am seeing is mutual tickling. You might call her passive an inderect nerf, but MC aside, all her other abilities benefit from it pretty damn a lot on mid-high levels.

It's faster than Disarm, is it not? You're right that it isn't fast and in fact let me rephrase: It ALLOWS them to kill each other faster THAN Irridiating Disarm. Does Chaos always get enemies to kill each other? Of course not, enemies hide behind stuff, enemies hit other heavy enemies, etc. But it still allows them to kill faster than if they were disarmed, I still see in Draco (yes, shame me for playing Draco) enemies killing each other with Chaos, but now I don't see it happen as quickly because of them being disarmed or they won't and my high-duration ends. Plus, I don't see how it benefits from it, the only abilities I see benefit from this passive are Absorb and Psychic Bolts, but again it lowers the synergy between the abilities, such as if I wanted to hit an enemy with Absorb and then Mind Control it, but now Absorb just disarmed that enemy. Mind Control is the most obvious ability that got nerfed and in some ways it can help Chaos, but please realize that high level content is not the only content out there and Chaos was great since it allowed enemies to kill each other off quickly with their weapons, of course not in Sorties (although in the lower level Sorties I still saw heavy units were able to kill off other units), but now it's just another Irridiating Disarm and therefore it takes longer for them to kill enemies. If I wanted to Disarm enemies, I would play Loki, I enjoyed Nyx because I could sit there and still see enough devastation for enemies killing each other or weakening each other to the point where it was easy to kill them. Although the passive is only a chance, it's happened enough where it's frustrating. I agree, again, with you that Psychic Bolts and Absorb benefit from it, but it still lowers the synergy later on if I were to want to Mind Control the enemy or with Chaos because Chaos still ALLOWS enemies to kill each other quickly (especially with heavy units attacking smaller units) or to weakening them to the point where one hit from the Tenno can kill them, while with Disarm it doesn't. 

Edited May 28, 2016 by TheMortemShadow

[Wolfnrun]

1 minute ago, LilyLincesa said:

I tested this, it is not duration based. At least, not the range of the Electric wave. I just took Volt P out for a spin, once with Stretch and Duration mods on, and once with just Stretch, and the range was just the same. So I 'm pretty sure at this stage, it's a bug his Range isn't being affected. Or at least, the range of Discharge.

I think it's intended? or else it would take longer to reach max range 

[Zoracraft]

I will simply say this.

 

Nerfing war frames that "cheese" the game without nerfing the enemies that incentivize said cheesing is like if you had two children, and only ever punished one of them.The punished one gets demoralized, while the unpunished one feels like they are superior to the punished one, even if the punished child is a better person.

 

In this case, DE has felt the need to step on a good number of the "cheese" warframes without even acknowledging the difficulty spikes that incentivized them. Trials are going to be locked off except to the most expert players now, and don't even get me started on some sortie conditions. It's going to take some effort to win back the crowd after this one, DE, so don't half bake your enemy balance changes like what it looked like you did for the warframe changes. Take ALL community feedback into mind, and try to predict what the results will be.

 

This update has done critical damage to many players' trust in you, DE, but you still have a chance to turn this around while still balancing the game. Don't let them down.

Zoracraft

Edited May 28, 2016 by Zoracraft
Slightly less pessimistic

[Ibro156]

2 hours ago, Megakruemel said:

woah. That's a lot of forum activity... What happened at that huge interruption after January 2016 were the graph hits the bottom of the chart?

Am guessing that's when forums where down for a rework

[SiriusStarr]

11 minutes ago, motorfirebox said:

*shrug* Don't let the door hit you.

And if that's DE's attitude towards their devoted players, then they won't have a devoted playerbase for very long.

[NightBlitz]

funny thing, they nerf op stuff, people complain, they buff weak stuff, people complain, they dont touch frames and still people complain.

 

and sometimes its the same people for multiple sides, ugh, grow up people

[EvilChaosKnight]

1 minute ago, TheMortemShadow said:

-snip-

Idk, it still feels to me that the benefits outweight the cons here. I run low-duration ("disruptor") Nyx Pr, and she's my #1 frame ever since she came out. Was maining normal Nyx before that.

Chaos IMO still as good if not better because if you might've noticed melee units actually hit harder than ranged AND they never miss their shots. They also bunch up together more so my punchthrough or AOE weapons would have easier time removing them. I also got an actual reason to use Psychic Bolts! Since they seem to disarm more often.

The only thing I'd change myself is to exclude MC from the passive's list of things to disarm. The rest actually work pretty nicely.

And if you just want to press a button and see mid-low lvl enemies die at fast rate, I suggest Ember (Pr). Does exactly that XD

[Bizzaro21]

glad you guys are actually considering the changes you do, but what really makes me rejoice is that enemy scaling is finally looked at,, I said it in another thread, and will again, the first step to balance is capping endless missions and balancing enemies and weapons around the middle phase of these missions

Spoiler

full post: 

 

[Senketsu_]

2 hours ago, (XB1)NecroEric420 said:

I never got to experience a dagger to the heart like my old buddy used to talk about until now because, im newer... trinity was perfect in every way and didnt need to be touched... i can deal with any other change.... :(

 

You guys do great work but this one really hurt me.

Also just a side note but an aura range and xp share isnt very fun... i think it should just be universal and infinite range. especially in archwing.

 

cheers. thanks for breaking my heart. im sure you will many times again because you cant leave anything alone even when its perfect.

 

there has always been a capped range to shared affinity just now you can actually see it.