The problem with low-geared players in late game content, and a potential solution

[Letter13]

The main question is how to bar players based on their current skill level and/or quality of gear, as this is what determines whether a player can take on late-game content--whether they have the knowledge/experience of knowing how to deal with certain enemies and if they have the appropriate tools for dealing with them.

The two main objectives are:

1. Prevent players who cannot pull their own weight from joining late game missions,
2. Ensure that players can progress as far as their current skill/gear strength allows them to.

Other benefits include: getting players to work on unlocking star chart nodes (Gotta unlock 'em all!), public matchmaking confidence in teammates, presents challenge-walls that encourage developing of skills as players, and more.

The two main steps to achieve these objectives respectively, I feel, are:

1. Prevent missions from starting unless all players in the lobby have unlocked the node (exception for Void/Derelict missions), which prevents taxiing players who have not yet unlocked the node.
   • A lot of players have mentioned and have made very good arguments about allowing taxiing to occur in fully private (invite-only) matches, it wouldn't unlock a node, but it would allow high-gear players to show their low-gear friends what sorts of cool things are in store later down the line, etc.
2. Include 1~2 solo-only missions per planet, that players need to clear to progress along the starchart (such as the first mission, or a critical-node which needs to be cleared to unlock the boss node or access the nodes leading up to the boss), which act as a test of skill/gear level to make sure the player has powerful enough gear to take on missions in that area.
   • For atypical nodes/missions, such as sorties or event missions, a hybrid Mastery/Starchart-Progression system could be used; but it would function as an OR condition; such as "Must be mastery rank X, or have cleared planet Y" to access. This way lower mastery rank players who have high levels of skill (or powerful enough gear) that are capable enough to take on late-game tasks can access sorties as well

For the first step, implementing that should be relatively easy, and its purpose is clear.

For the second step, it would require some re-working of one or two missions per planet; solo-only missions could be a special type of infiltration mission where the player has to enable a comms relay that Ordis can use to pick up broadcasts in the sector, or a special sabotage mission on the node before a boss node, etc.

 

 

To rebut "Lock it with mastery" arguments, locking planets behind mastery walls is not a good solution. If a low-MR player has strong enough gear and the experience/knowledge to take on late-game enemies and missions, nothing should prevent them from being able to take on late-game content. They may be low MR by choice--in that they prefer to exclusively use only one or two frames and a handful of weapons; they may have dedicated time to ranking up their mods and collecting rare and powerful mods which give them the ability to take on late/end game content without any issue. Mastery is not indicative of skill/gear/mod level, and because of that it is not a viable way to lock players out of later game content.

The changes as I've mentioned above won't affect those with high mastery ranks; while a high mastery rank usually does denote a player's overall experience with the game (there are exceptions), a low mastery rank does not necessarily mean a player is incompetent when it comes to late game content. Players who are competent and capable enough to handle late game content shouldn't be forced to raise their mastery rank--which is sometimes extremely difficult for players who can't afford to purchase or trade for platinum for additional slots, who are then forced to constantly level, sell and build new weapons.

 

 

 

Addendum: Starchart 3.0 is super close as well, it is right around the corner(tm) [Soon(tm)-ing intensifies]. A lot of what it brings may invalidate some of what I'm proposing here, but in the event that nodes and matchmaking function in a similar way to what we have now, these may be good suggestions for what to incorporate as par of Starchart 3.0 before its release. In that respect, this thread functions both as feedback for Starchart 2.0 as it is now, and as a short list of things that I'd like to see in Starchart 3.0!

[IEpicWolfI]

Lock planets with Mastery ranks while ensuring, if you're stuck on x planet, that it has enough interesting content to keep you going and motivated to progress, way I see it.

[Letter13]

Just now, IEpicWolfI said:

Lock planets with Mastery ranks while ensuring, if you're stuck on x planet, that it has enough interesting content to keep you going and motivated to progress, way I see it.

Locking with mastery isn't viable; if a low MR player has the equipment and mods to take on later game content, there should be nothing preventing them from accessing said content.

Mastery rank isn't indicative of skill or gear level; someone may be low MR by choice--in that they have found a set of weapons/frames that they prefer to exclusively use, and don't feel the need to get additional weapons or frames. In that respect, excluding players based on mastery is not a good solution at all.

[IEpicWolfI]

Just now, Letter13 said:

Locking with mastery isn't viable; if a low MR player has the equipment and mods to take on later game content, there should be nothing preventing them from accessing said content.

Mastery rank isn't indicative of skill or gear level; someone may be low MR by choice--in that they have found a set of weapons/frames that they prefer to exclusively use, and don't feel the need to get additional weapons or frames. In that respect, excluding players based on mastery is not a good solution at all.

 Hmm, fair point actually. Other than that I agree with the other points you made, though it would also be nice if such measures worked for Sorties when going in Public, to ensure you won't see a lvl 30 Excal users with MK-1 weapons on like, 3rd Sortie missions.

 

 

[Letter13]

5 minutes ago, IEpicWolfI said:

 Hmm, fair point actually. Other than that I agree with the other points you made, though it would also be nice if such measures worked for Sorties when going in Public, to ensure you won't see a lvl 30 Excal users with MK-1 weapons on like, 3rd Sortie missions.

 

 

Sorties are already mastery restricted to rank 4 or up; but it might be possible to have certain sortie levels unlock based on starchart progression. i.e. to have access to Sortie 2 missions, you need to have cleared Saturn, Sortie 3 Pluto, etc.

If a lvl 30 Excal user with Mk-1 weapons can clear the proposed solo mission(s) on Pluto, then they may very well have their Mk-1 weapons completely stacked with forma and max-ranked mods that make it vomit death (though WHY they chose to invest so much in Mk-1 weapons would make me question their overall judgement).

[IEpicWolfI]

Just now, Letter13 said:

Sorties are already mastery restricted to rank 4 or up; but it might be possible to have certain sortie levels unlock based on starchart progression. i.e. to have access to Sortie 2 missions, you need to have cleared Saturn, Sortie 3 Pluto, etc.

 Yeah that would be nice, though MR4 is a rather low requirement, for content with lvl 50+ enemies with various end-game challenges, so some additional tweaks would be appreciated.

 That said I have no problem carrying people through Sorties, Void missions or some Alert taxis and the such, but it would be nice if we saw less of newer player attempting end game as soon as they reach MR4.

[Roachester]

My only issue with the first suggestion is that it would force player to run through nodes they don't want to put up with for the sole purpose of doing alerts. While that makes enough sense in and of itself, there's also the issue of incentive. People don't play on most of these nodes because there's little to nothing to be gained from doing so -- even the majority of alerts have rewards that most wouldn't consider to be worth the chore.

Eh. That being said, I guess there isn't really a way to prevent taxiing without making some serious sacrifices.

 

I love the second idea, though. Just make the first node on every planet solo-only, maybe as well as the pre-boss node(s). If they can at least handle that much on their own, I think it'd serve as more than enough assurance that they can run through the rest of the planet with or without a team.

Edited June 17, 2016 by Roachester

[Praxxor]

Make the first boss runs solo maybe? After a player has killed the boss alone at least once, they can use matchmaking on that node

Except for a couple bosses, like Kela, those are just annoying and may be hard for a lot of people.

[tnccs215]

Quite honestly, I think we should delay judgments such as this to after we know how will the reworked starchart work. Should it work similar to the present one, but without redundant nodes, and sure, your idea seems good-- it locks players according to actual skill and investment (but also on luck. Lets be honest, one that chooses Volt or Mag over excal might have a harder time), and not based on a title that we relate to skill and expertise simply due to its apparent similarities to other game's mastery system (even though it only really shows how much junk did you got into your hands).

On the other hand, however, we have to understand that carrying a player is a-ok when it's consensual. Is it so bad for me to carry my friend to nodes she doesn't have yet in order for her to skip the filler? Specially in what comes to alerts: Not allowing taxi might make a player take even more months to get Vauban, for example.

So, I think that Taxi should be permitted. However, it should not unlock the node for the new player. That way, you can be carried if everyone agrees with it, and no one will have to forcefully carry someone that isn't ready.

[Soulvengeance]

Why do do we care about mastery rank?  Why not conclave score system?  Also, if the concern is too low of skill/geared players joining why not implement a minimum conclave for party host/leader? To be honest I love doing t1-3 survival with warframes and weapons that are unmoded just for the insane difficulty of doing so, but at the same time I hate when I am going 90min T4 survival + and non experienced players with out enough modding join and you can not kick them. 

 

I love the Idea of 1-2 solo missions per system.  Instead of ranking up or conclave, these systems could be designed to test warframe/weapons gearing and the skill of the player.  This way a skilled player with decent frame can progress through system content without being dependent on how much platinum they spend.  Just yesterday I ran with a M4 guy that I helped to obtain Paris Prime, Lex Prime, Orhos prime, and Ash prime, and helped him lvl up.  After doing so the only restriction was he could not use blade storm when running with me (even though I too am an ash) and surprisingly he did very well in Survival on Ceres 30min.  Pulling about 31% of the dps out of the 2 of us and only going down 1 time.  This guy learned fast, and a mastery rank cap would only hinder him.  Where as a skill based questing system would only slow him down a tad but separate him from those that put no effort in to learning how to play.

[(PSN)FriendSharkey]

I rather De expand on how the Moon Tileset works. You have to complete the Second Dream Quest. That seems like the nexus point of going from clueless to getting shoved behind the curtain with Great and Powerful Oz. isn't there like three sub quests you have to complete in order to even unlock it? 

From there you should be pretty good on mods, weapons, and frames built to withstand the Sentient. Sorties, Trials, and certain planet nodes meant for the advanced gear should be present. While all the prior content is appropriate for the starters coming up.

Each new player is a customer that can purchase the gear right out of the market. Progression is good, but limiting and going out of the way to frustrate a paying customer seems counterproductive to the bottom line. I guess some have to always equate everything to a race, but shooting the car behind you due to them knowing a helpfuL clan, well why even have clans...too OP, get back to the start noobs. 

The Earth and the Moon Tiles and how they work, I like that milestone. Veterans can farm the harder enviroment for better gains, while not having to mingle with starting players. Starting players have a reason to get from A-B. They can only go with vets due to an invite. And if that's happening then its friends, or they're being groomed by a clan. Regardless the real game begins in the run for better frames and gear, while De sells plat for quick acquisitions, inventory/forma/potatoes/, and cosmetics. 

[Evanescent]

32 minutes ago, Letter13 said:

Sorties are already mastery restricted to rank 4 or up; but it might be possible to have certain sortie levels unlock based on starchart progression. i.e. to have access to Sortie 2 missions, you need to have cleared Saturn, Sortie 3 Pluto, etc.

If a lvl 30 Excal user with Mk-1 weapons can clear the proposed solo mission(s) on Pluto, then they may very well have their Mk-1 weapons completely stacked with forma and max-ranked mods that make it vomit death (though WHY they chose to invest so much in Mk-1 weapons would make me question their overall judgement).

Ey m8 Mk-1 Braton wrecks

[ranks21]

if I was a new player and coming to this game  paying my money for in game stuff and it is restricting me as how you are suggesting then I would uninstall it. mr locking contents is only frustrating players and its counter productive, it has no bearings on a player's ability to point and shoot or press a button to cc a weak game..

plenty of vets are noobs just as you have natural gamers that are elites  regardless of the type of games they play.. in the end of all the jealousy of who is better at what  it still comes down to money talks and bs walks.

[Kitzun]

1 hour ago, Letter13 said:

1. Prevent missions from starting unless all players in the lobby have unlocked the node (exception for Void/Derelict missions), which prevents taxiing players who have not yet unlocked the node.

 

Yes, this way people will have to farm the nodes, in a farm game it's only fair.

1 hour ago, Letter13 said:

Include 1~2 solo-only missions per planet, that players need to clear to progress along the starchart (such as the first mission, or a critical-node which needs to be cleared to unlock the boss node or access the nodes leading up to the boss), which act as a test of skill/gear level to make sure the player has powerful enough gear to take on missions in that area.

 

No, there is easier than that: a boss node  will be unlocked when all other nodes of the planet will have been completed save dark sectors (and perhaps archwing missions).

[AzyWng]

8 minutes ago, ranks21 said:

if I was a new player and coming to this game  paying my money for in game stuff and it is restricting me as how you are suggesting then I would uninstall it. mr locking contents is only frustrating players and its counter productive, it has no bearings on a player's ability to point and shoot or press a button to cc a weak game..

plenty of vets are noobs just as you have natural gamers that are elites  regardless of the type of games they play.. in the end of all the jealousy of who is better at what  it still comes down to money talks and bs walks.

Sorry if I come off as a little hostile, but negative attitudes and poor spelling/punctuation/grammar don't make me very happy.

If you think this game has no depth to it or that a wallet-warrior mindset is all there is to this game, then please don't post here.

Or at least press the shift keys once in a while.

[Soketsu]

1 hour ago, Letter13 said:

The main question is how to bar players based on their current skill level and/or quality of gear, as this is what determines whether a player can take on late-game content--whether they have the knowledge/experience of knowing how to deal with certain enemies and if they have the appropriate tools for dealing with them.

The two main objectives are:

1. Prevent players who cannot pull their own weight from joining late game missions,
2. Ensure that players who join late game content are able to pull their own weight in missions.

The two main steps to achieve these objectives respectively, I feel, are:

1. Prevent missions from starting unless all players in the lobby have unlocked the node (exception for Void/Derelict missions), which prevents taxiing players who have not yet unlocked the node.
2. Include 1~2 solo-only missions per planet, that players need to clear to progress along the starchart (such as the first mission, or a critical-node which needs to be cleared to unlock the boss node or access the nodes leading up to the boss), which act as a test of skill/gear level to make sure the player has powerful enough gear to take on missions in that area.

For the first step, implementing that should be relatively easy, and its purpose is clear.

For the second step, it would require some re-working of one or two missions per planet; solo-only missions could be a special type of infiltration mission where the player has to enable a comms relay that Ordis can use to pick up broadcasts in the sector, or a special sabotage mission on the node before a boss node, etc.

 

 

To rebut "Lock it with mastery" arguments, locking planets behind mastery walls is not a good solution. If a low-MR player has strong enough gear and the experience/knowledge to take on late-game enemies and missions, nothing should prevent them from being able to take on late-game content. They may be low MR by choice--in that they prefer to exclusively use only one or two frames and a handful of weapons; they may have dedicated time to ranking up their mods and collecting rare and powerful mods which give them the ability to take on late/end game content without any issue. Mastery is not indicative of skill/gear/mod level, and because of that it is not a viable way to lock players out of later game content.

or should we use conclave rate again ?

[MagPrime]

I would like to see taxi moved to private lobbie only, i.e. you have to be set to friends/invite only matchmaking before you can take that newblette to Pluto. (and of course, no node unlocking afterwards)

The reason for that is that I don't mind helping my MR5 friend with higher level content, and I don't think I should be prevented from doing that in a private team.

Public missions though, I don't think should have the taxi option open.  You're forcing other players into a situation they may not want to be in.

Other than that, I like your suggestions.

[(PSN)Elvenbane]

22 minutes ago, tnccs215 said:

Quite honestly, I think we should delay judgments such as this to after we know how will the reworked starchart work. Should it work similar to the present one, but without redundant nodes, and sure, your idea seems good--

Completely agree with this, something along the lines of what's suggested wouldn't work well with the current star chart, but hopefully this is being addressed and players will have a better defined/more rewarding progression system.

I also don't know how I feel about the "solo" node. Make it too challenging and you risk alienating players, not challenging enough and it serves no purpose. This also seems like something the MR tests were intended for? Sure people can grind MR, but they still have to pass a test to rank up. Maybe some MR test tweaks are in order...the solo mission seems redundant...if you can't make the MR test meaningful, I doubt the solo node would do any better.

I did start with Mag back in the day, and I did solo most of the star chart (not by choice, most nodes were a ghost town)...it wasn't a great experience. At the same time, I do think taking shortcuts (bringing your MR0 friend to Draco) does hurt the overall experience.

One final point, Dark Souls (and series I really enjoy) is allegedly a difficult game, but even it allows you to go through the entire thing summoning help, some people do, and I assume that's fun for them...should Warframe PvE be less accommodating than Dark Souls?

[NightmareT12]

Option 2 seems the most fair of all those, but then again... I don't think anything can be properly done without feeling unfair at some point or the other.

We've got the Starchart coming in 2 weeks anyways, so we'll see if perhaps there's a change aimed at a better progression again.

[--Nef-Anyo--]

Conclave rating would help to determine how good ones gear is. Personally MR does not mean anything. I've played with plenty of high rank tenno and most of the time they have not invested in their gear or even have common sense. Raids are a fine example of the mockery of the MR system. 

[(XBOX)Vaktalor]

1 hour ago, Letter13 said:

• Prevent missions from starting unless all players in the lobby have unlocked the node (exception for Void/Derelict missions), which prevents taxiing players who have not yet unlocked the node.
• Include 1~2 solo-only missions per planet, that players need to clear to progress along the starchart (such as the first mission, or a critical-node which needs to be cleared to unlock the boss node or access the nodes leading up to the boss), which act as a test of skill/gear level to make sure the player has powerful enough gear to take on missions in that area.

how do you think this will work with the trials like Law of Retribution and Jordas Verdict i feel like there is some complications with incompetent people still being able to join in no problem will it work the same way with the trials or a test mission going through the synapse of the trials???

[Shreiko]

Why do you feel there's a need for such changes in the current iteration of the game? I think taxiing is a good system since I'm almost certain DE made it so players that don't have the node unlocked even if they are taxied there anymore.

[(XBOX)Grihaly]

1 hour ago, Letter13 said:

• Prevent missions from starting unless all players in the lobby have unlocked the node (exception for Void/Derelict missions), which prevents taxiing players who have not yet unlocked the node.
• Include 1~2 solo-only missions per planet, that players need to clear to progress along the starchart (such as the first mission, or a critical-node which needs to be cleared to unlock the boss node or access the nodes leading up to the boss), which act as a test of skill/gear level to make sure the player has powerful enough gear to take on missions in that area.

I like these. Especially because I solo'd my way through the entire star chart. 

[KirukaChan]

Solo-only nodes...eh, I don't like that idea. I played through the entire star chart with one partner, and having him along the whole time was what made that slog enjoyable.

[heskaroid]

How about putting MR restrictions depending on most nodes? 

For example,Draco should be restricted up to MR11-more.