Why shouldn't this game be pay to win ?

[(PSN)CrimsonLotus_Fox]

You apparently are not aware that turning this game into a full P2W will destroy it. Much like what happened to an old(ish) PC game I used to play called Ether Saga Online made by Perfect World Entertainment went fully P2W and they had to go from an amazing Co-op game like Warframe to needing to go PVP just to get some money and players willing to pay to upgrade their gear just to be as strong as they used to be before the game was completely P2W. So if you want Warframe to end up just like ESO keep preaching buddy, but it's never gonna happen. Also not every Veteran has a mountain of Platinum in stock with no real use for it, and DE is already making enough money with how this game is right now so P2W will destroy the way they are making this game. And what of the people that are having bad luck financially that want to play the game to relax a bit. So your idea will ruin this lovely game for the new players and players that might not be able to afford a P2W game. 

Edited June 19, 2016 by (PS4)Lunarahaze
Adding sentences that were forgotten.

[DELTATRON]

Quote

So, what if DE decided to release Sentient guns that deal 5k damage per hit and are full auto, and can only be bought for 300 platinum ? Would that really be a problem ?

-This game is Co-op. You're not going against someone who is paying for better gear, in fact, them being in your party is only a benefit.

 

Oh yeah, this game would be so much better with a P2W death weapon of destruction, F*** newer players they don't matter.

Seriously that does not solve anything, imagine yourself as a newish player, you just sit there with your rank 15 Excalibur and you have a P2W player on your team who is also new, he has a level 30 P2W Warframe with that 5K damage sentient weapons, that isn't fun or a benefit, that is just you watching chaos happen and the only thing killing you is boredom. before you say "but you get EXP and resources with no challenge." that is not a benefit, that is boring as hell, and you probably won't even get much in this P2W world this idea lives in.

P2W is never helpful for a game, this would NEVER work out.

[(XBOX)DShinShoryuken]

The reason the game should not become P2W.....as many others have pointed out is that it takes away the reason to accomplish anything if you can just throw money at it. Plus with this mindset, people will get "bored" faster and then give the gun/item/P2W thing away to someone else or just leave the game with the said P2W item just collecting internet dust. 

What that does is make it that the players that are destroying everything with ease stop playing since no "challenge", the developers would have to increase the "challenge", and those who do not have said P2W item would become discouraged since now they cannot do anything in game after the P2W people left with their item but the threat in game is still there. So they quit as well. And then new people come on, see that no one is playing or even on, and then they quit. Warframe goes the way of having no one play and the game gets cancelled and sold to some company that uses the liscense to do underground cosplay porn. 

And it is all because the topic poster out this idea out to the OMNIVERSE that this is now happening in some other reality. Congratz Topic Starter....you killed Warframe in another universe.

[Camelslayer]

Well, let me ask you this- why would Warframe betray their fanbase to implement pay-to-win items when pay-to-win has never been a positive thing in any game ever? It would be completely detrimental. They've pretty well mastered the "pay-to-be-lazy" model where you can earn everything in-game, including platinum through trading. 

Not to mention they're smart enough to know the kind of backlash they'll receive, likely leading to an exodus of Warframe players.

Edited June 19, 2016 by Camelslayer

[Bleak-Knight]

OP, have you never seen/played a p2w game? Because if you have then you know why Warframe can and will not become p2w.

[PainTako]

1 hour ago, Futurehero said:

So, what if DE decided to release Sentient guns that deal 5k damage per hit and are full auto, and can only be bought for 300 platinum ? Would that really be a problem ?

-This game is Co-op. You're not going against someone who is paying for better gear, in fact, them being in your party is only a benefit.

No, no, and again no. I cannot tell you the amount of times I have run Ember with a squad and run off to kill everything and they get 0 affinity because I'm not in range for them. Yeah you get carried but that's about it. It makes the game 100% boring and not even close to being fun to play.

1 hour ago, Futurehero said:

-You can trade a lot of things for platinum, so at the end of the day, platinum just becomes another thing you can grind for.

Go grind 300p off of only trading, see how long it takes.

1 hour ago, Futurehero said:

-In fact, a lot of veterans are probably sitting on buckets of the stuff, earned JUST by trading.

Your view is so skewed I cannot believe it, I have a friend who has played longer than me and he has almost no plat. I have played since update 8 and I only have 3k plat, and that's only because of Prime access and me pouring money in for stuff I wanted such as cosmetics, slots, and potatoes. You're view is so skewed by the selective few members who constantly trade for plat.

1 hour ago, Futurehero said:

-This would finally put an end to the enemy scaling problem .

No, it wouldn't. This would 'solve' it for people who are willing to pay money or trade enough plat for it. Which will never solve it, it's a stupid band-aid fix and that is it.

1 hour ago, Futurehero said:

-Whoever thinks those weapons are too much, can simply not use them. This same thing is said about things like the Tonkor, or Ember. So why would this be different.

Why not use the tonkor? Because aiming it is incredibly annoying. And for Ember? She's strong up until a certain point. That's why no one brings her on a raid. Both are strong, but also have their downsides. The idea you're suggesting has basically no downside making it broken.

1 hour ago, Futurehero said:

-Since not everyone can afford a 300 platinum gun, you probably won't see everyone in Pub plays with this .

What does this have to do with anything?

1 hour ago, Futurehero said:

-People finally have an option to easily finish raids.

We did but DE recently nerfed them because they obviously don't want broken things in their game. (Infinite blind mirage + EV Trin + 99% damage reduction Trin)

1 hour ago, Futurehero said:

-"Trivializing content" is not a thing . People have been trivializing content for years and it's still  being played just as well.

Is not a new thing*. And we 'trivialize content' to face higher level enemies. There is still times when facing enemies in sorties is somewhat hard. It's kinda how any game with progression works, if you hit lvl 100 in a game like WoW a level 30 enemy will easily die to you.

1 hour ago, Futurehero said:

-Players would still have incentives to make other guns ,the same way people are still crafting things like the twin Basolk when Broken War is given to you for free.

The only incentive is to get a higher mastery rank, which even then there is no point once you hit MR12 since everything is now unlocked. I crafted Twin Basolk for 2 reasons, 1 mastery fodder, and 2 the new mod Kale De Thaym gave.

1 hour ago, Futurehero said:

Honestly, except the knee-jerk reaction that people have to the term "pay to win", is there any argument as to why this couldn't be a thing? It would certainly make DE a lot of money, and players can still technically get this weapon for free through trading. 

The game would not be fun. Simply put, why would I want to continue to play a game that I have not point in playing. I pay like what, $20 for a weapon that will kill everything for me. The only point is to unlock new stuff that I will never need to use since I have the most op weapon for my sentinel in the game. Guess what a sentinel does for you, shoot stuff without you having to aim. I start a defense mission against infested, go take a nice hot shower, make dinner, eat dinner, and then browse memes for 30 minutes. Come back, and everything will be dead.

Great, you have an idea to make DE money, I'm pretty sure DE has plenty of money considering how many I see people buying prime access. I have seen at least 30 different people with the Vauban Prime icon, each one had to pay $100 to get it from prime access. $3000 in a small sample.

This idea would single handedly kill Warframe. It would not longer be at all fun since you just gave me something that kill everything for me, I don't even need skill. All I need to do is know how to walk in the game and it kills everything for me.

Edited June 19, 2016 by Akemi-EN-

[DrBorris]

Now that I found this I shall post it everywhere someone says something, let's just say, stupid.

And here is a good reason... people don't like P2W, does not matter if you can/can't make a case for it, people will leave the game just because it is P2W.

Quote

"You just don't like being outscored!"

 

"It's a co-op game!"

 

"Tckthuhuluwapphffffuputututu!" (which is a translation of the above into an ancient and forgotten language)

 

These are the common justifications as to why nothing should ever be nerfed. The co-op argument is, in the small picture, a valid point. Why should you want allies to be weaker? But, thing is, there's a much, much bigger picture here, which I'll go into detail on right now.  

 

 

I. The character-by-character basis  

 

(The example here uses characters, but the same argument can easily be applied to weapons).  

To better illustrate this point, I'm gonna use an example:

 

You're playing your favorite co-op RPG shooter, Galaxy of Fantasy. At launch, you had the option to choose between Ninja, or Viking. Both characters are equally viable selections, as they both served different roles, but one wasn't necessarily a better choice than the other: it was merely all about how you preferred to play the game.  Ninja is really fast, and Viking has really high defense. All's good. But one day, GoF introduces the Cowboy DLC!

 

Cowboy is REALLY strong. As a matter of fact, upon release, he's so strong, that he can literally nuke anything just by attacking it. Who needs to move fast, or have high defense, when you can literally kill anything without effort whatsoever? At this point,  Ninja and Viking are merely novelty characters, meaning they're fun to play around with, but when you actually need a character to do a serious mission with, you're gonna turn to Cowboy. So now the GoF development team has two choices:

 

A) They can buff Ninja and Viking to the levels of Cowboy. This way, they're all on even terms.

B) They can nerf Cowboy so that he's about on-par with Ninja and Viking. Same results as above.

 

Problem with option A, is that if it's selected, the game will suddenly be easier now.  And if the game was easy before, it will suddenly be a cakewalk.  

 

If they choose B, then not only do you now have three equally viable characters to choose from, but you also preserve the game's difficulty, or at least whatever difficulty it had to begin with.  

 

 

II. The power-by-power basis

 

Now that all three characters are just as good as one another, we can take a look at their individual powers. In particular, let's look at Ninja. He has the skills Poison Shurikens, Speed Boost, and Immolation. Poison Shurikens is a nice skill, as it adds on some awesome DoT effects. But Immolation is where it's at! That skill just does so much damage and debuffs enemies so bad, it's crazy! But look at Speed Boost. Only a 15% boost in movement speed for 5 seconds if I max it out? What? Screw that, I refuse to spec into a skill so worthless! So what do I, as a player, do? Spec him with only Immolation of course. That's what everyone does. It's the best build for him.

The development team takes a look now. After assessing that Immolation's really powerful and Speed Boost is really weak, they now have two options:

 

A) Increase the power of Poison Shurikens and the speed bonus of Speed Boost to the competitive levels of Immolation.

B) Lower the power of Immolation to Poison Shurikens' level, and raise the potency of Speed Boost to Poison Shurikens' level.

 

The problem with option A, is that now Ninja is the more appealing option in comparison to Cowboy and Viking. Why take the balanced characters when I can take the one with three OP powers? And so balance will need to be re-issued.

If you take option B though, Immolation becomes a much less viable option, sure, but it's still a good skill, and a very handy one at that. Only now, Ninja has three good skills to choose from, making builds much harder to decide on, making individual players think about it themselves instead of just using the default cookie cutter build.

In short, balance is necessary for co-op games just as much as it is for PvP games. Why have options when one thing just destroys the viability of the other things? Balance. It's called that for a reason. Nobody's "out to get you" or "trying to ruin your fun". No, we're trying to help you, actually. Open up possibilities, and all that jazz. We all enjoy the game, and sometimes things need to be taken out of power. Nerfs are necessary, just as buffs are. That's the double-edged sword of competitive balance.

 

 

Note:  You can and should still argue for why a particular nerf was undeserved.  This is addressed purely at those who don't understand the point of nerfs at all, and is not for or against any particular balance change.  

 

***This post was originally authored by DullahansXMark from another forum, and has been edited to make sense for Warframe and formatting limitations.  

Edited June 19, 2016 by DrBorris

[Wandering_Cyberdragoness]

1 hour ago, Bleak-Knight said:

It takes a hell lot of trading to make 300 plat for a gun. And this is for a gun that does only 5k damage? My Tigris does 3 times more damage.

my Vaykor Hek does 4.3 times that

[Camelslayer]

4 minutes ago, Xen_Ashwood said:

my Vaykor Hek does 4.3 times that

I think he means 5k base damage.

[Latiac]

GR8 B8 M8 I R8 8/8

 

Seriously though, Warframe is doing well because it has a good playstyle and it's one of the few free games you can get everything in without paying a single penny. Doing this would ultimately destroy the game.

 

 

[1tsyB1tsyN1nj4]

19 hours ago, Futurehero said:

Newbies don't need a gun  that deals 1 million damage ,after all .

Yet they'll want it anyway. Remember the community you're talking about, they want a boring &#! stance like Vengeful Revenant just because, they'll want a gun like that and complain about how it's 300 plat. There is no point in a gun like that anyway, considering Warframe has plenty of weapons and is getting even more

Edited June 20, 2016 by [DE]Taylor
removed profanity :)

[Xekrin]

2 hours ago, Futurehero said:

This game is Co-op. You're not going against someone who is paying for better gear, in fact, them being in your party is only a benefit.

I will never understand people who do not believe there is no competition in PvE games such as this.  Just because I'm not against you in terms of player versus player or faction versus faction doesn't mean we aren't competing.

Besides, if I can't P2W and you can, and I'm in your group, I become the leecher and you are carrying me and/or the whole team.  Eventually you will get tired of doing that and scream 'GIT GUD' or rather 'GIT MONEYS SHEESH' and ragequit.

No thanks.

[Jangkrik]

[LolenderVx2]

TERRIBLE IDEA 

This will literlay kill the game 

[DeadlyPeanutt]

2 hours ago, Futurehero said:

....

Honestly, except the knee-jerk reaction that people have to the term "pay to win", is there any argument as to why this couldn't be a thing? It would certainly make DE a lot of money, and players can still technically get this weapon for free through trading. 

The P2W label discourages MANY new players from getting involved in a game.  P2W is one of the most reviled labels a F2P game can get.  And if a game is P2W, it gets tagged fast in reviews and forums.  

WF has it's problems, but is NOT P2W, which is one reason I started playing it.  If WF had been P2W, i wouldn't have installed it. 

[Tymerc]

I'll definitely accept more Founder-only benefits if anything. 

[SoGlow]

I don't think i have many Faces or Palms to answer this topic.

Edited June 20, 2016 by xKlay

[Azrael]

1 hour ago, Latiac said:

GR8 B8 M8 I R8 8/8

Hell is too good for you. :)

 

Seriously, OP, it's obvious that your idea has essentially no support. At this point, I think it would be best to say "oh well, I guess nobody's interested" and let it die. That would be better than another 6 pages of "this idea is terrible it's so bad that when I read it I slapped my mom."

I appreciate you remaining civil in your posts (even in the face of less-than-civil criticism), and understand that you just want to make the case for an idea that makes sense to you. But at this point I think it's fair to say that this idea will never take off.

[--F--NerevarCM]

25 minutes ago, xKlay said:

I don't think i have many Faces or Palms to answer this topic.

Don't exist enough facepalm memes in the internet to describe this topic.

[(XBOX)Archibald Jax]

5k, 500k, the number in the end is not important. DE is trying to balance all the content, so if they release a pay only weapon that moves the bar for god-tier, that becomes the new balance point and only those who can afford it can play without an almost insurmountable level of difficulty killing and surviving. This is a wretched idea because it would forcibly exclude those without plat to burn from a large portion of content in the end, thus pushing many players out of the game. Players who then warn their friends away from the game because it is a p2w grindfest, and in the end Warframe dies under the weight of naked greed. 

[DatDarkOne]

4 hours ago, giantconch said:

Why shouldnt DE change warframe and allow weapons that are only purchaseable through the market with plat?

 

Because the current model works great, and DE recieves praise for having a business model like the one in place, which allows users to pay-to-skip wait times and grinding, but also allows those without the funds to do so the ability to obtain all of the same gear without skipping a meal a day for two weeks to do so.

^^^This is why OP's suggestion shouldn't and will not happen.  

[BPNPC]

I think this is the worst suggestion I have ever read.

[Marvelous_A]

Because this is why we play warframe not other P2W games? I have seen too many of them.

[WhisperByte]

I have to agree with OP.

Although I think just straight up selling uber guns for 300 (or whatever) plat would be a wrong way to go about it.

Warframe in it's core is a gacha game. There's RNG involved in almost all the game aspects. Even combat (crit, stats). It's what keeps the game going. So I think the best solution would be putting those weapons in lock boxes. I think the community is ready for them.

Have the lock boxes drop for everyone in a relatively high frequency and make them tradable so even f2p players can sell them to premium players and make some plat to buy the keys which should cost around 20p each. Besides uber guns (at low drop chances) the lock boxes could contain some skins and maybe rare resources like control modules.

 

Am I the only one getting serious Poe's Law vibes from OP? He's pretty much parroting all the low effort arguments used to dismiss calls for balancing

[Nexle]

Mods, just lock this thread. This flame war is getting out of hand..

As for this topic. No support.

you want chinaframe, this is not chinaframe. 

Hell I even bet you like buying colour pallettes seprately like in chinaframe too. 

 

Edited June 20, 2016 by Nexle