New Prime Rewards Process: Double Grind Wall

[(PSN)joe03827]

3 hours ago, (XB1)EternalDrk Mako said:

knowing my luck i will fall through tears all the time..by accident 

and you will cry ... TEARS (^{kill me pls )}

[bubonicbite1]

honestly do none of you think about how this works out better in the long run?

based on what the twitter post said that means different tier projections all always active, that is confirmed. you can use residuals to bump up the rarity of the item, also confirmed. someone said there were what 7 tears available on another dev stream? that makes it 7 different tiers of tears now ask this simple question on top of those three things, how else do they dilute the reward pools? this is speculation but among the options is to make them common/uncommon/rare/legendary t1-t7 projections.. that is the most logical thing they could have done imo and honestly.. thats roughly the same number of key types you could have obtained before. only now if they did it this way you can bump it up in rarity by using risiduals

regardless they have plenty of projection types and they did say the drop tables will be less diluted. sounds better to me even if it takes longer to get the keys i want. forma farm is now going to be easier? argon crystal farm isnt going to take keys? i can now find obstacle courses without wasting a key? well think of the good side of it even if you think very negatively of the projections... i mean..  a lot more drops are able to be added to the game even if the projections become harder to do and projections flop slightly.

my point is why think so negatively of something when you have some of the facts that disprove half of the negative comments already?

edited: also to reiterate a point i had in another post.. how many projections will you have if you have the keys you have now converted? and with tears always up you can just spam easy missions to charge them.

Edited July 5, 2016 by bubonicbite1

[Fionntan]

I'm sure it'll still pour out even more the closer the new Void 2.0 comes out; can't wait to see dem fireworks when does ~~

Edited July 5, 2016 by Fionntan

[Foefaller]

So, Dev workshop about this: 

Brief overview:

Projections confirmed to drop from endless missions, just like void keys

Projections will be divided by tier, but NOT tower; any T1 projection can be unlocked at any T1 tear mission, regardless of what said mission is.

Tear missions will have you find a tear in the mission, activated it, and do some sort of challenge

Everyone has a chance at picking another player's projection reward, people picking your reward gives you more luminous (the stuff you use to upgrade projections for better chances at rare rewards)

 

So yeah, you might no longer get more than one part per mission, but you'll have 4 shots at that part as long as 4 people are all bringing the same projection along, just like with a keyshare.

[cghawk]

3 minutes ago, Foefaller said:

So, Dev workshop about this: 

Brief overview:

Projections confirmed to drop from endless missions, just like void keys

Projections will be divided by tier, but NOT tower; any T1 projection can be unlocked at any T1 tear mission, regardless of what said mission is.

Tear missions will have you find a tear in the mission, activated it, and do some sort of challenge

Everyone has a chance at picking another player's projection reward, people picking your reward gives you more luminous (the stuff you use to upgrade projections for better chances at rare rewards)

 

So yeah, you might no longer get more than one part per mission, but you'll have 4 shots at that part as long as 4 people are all bringing the same projection along, just like with a keyshare.

so depending on the game mode(survival, def, interception) and how long you played you either got a higher or lower chance to get a certain prime part now

also with this change you'll be able to get significantly less ducats

[Fionntan]

20 minutes ago, Foefaller said:

So, Dev workshop about this: 

Brief overview:

Projections confirmed to drop from endless missions, just like void keys

Projections will be divided by tier, but NOT tower; any T1 projection can be unlocked at any T1 tear mission, regardless of what said mission is.

Tear missions will have you find a tear in the mission, activated it, and do some sort of challenge

Everyone has a chance at picking another player's projection reward, people picking your reward gives you more luminous (the stuff you use to upgrade projections for better chances at rare rewards)

 

So yeah, you might no longer get more than one part per mission, but you'll have 4 shots at that part as long as 4 people are all bringing the same projection along, just like with a keyshare.

So they kinda want to promote keyshare? This might end poorly, unless group is locked till all 4 are used up.

On the flip side, glad I don't have to rely RNG to get specific mission void type in only one node mission.

Edited July 5, 2016 by Fionntan
Edited after getting clarified info.

[Foefaller]

2 minutes ago, Fionntan said:

So they kinda want to promote keyshare? This might end poorly, unless group is locked till all 4 are used up.

On the flip side, glad I don't have to rely RNG to get specific mission void type in only one node mission.

Maybe I didn't explain it right.

Once you finish the mission after completing the tear, there is a popup that shows what everyone got from their projection. You can then choose which of the rewards you want, with everyone getting their own copy. I'm assuming the mission doesn't actually "finish" until everyone their reward (or the timer for choosing runs out) so no leaving before your projection gets used.

[Fionntan]

Just now, Foefaller said:

Maybe I didn't explain it right.

Once you finish the mission after completing the tear, there is a popup that shows what everyone got from their projection. You can then choose which of the rewards you want, with everyone getting their own copy. I'm assuming the mission doesn't actually "finish" until everyone their reward (or the timer for choosing runs out) so no leaving before your projection gets used.

Praise the sun then.

Thanks for the info, I'll edit my quote.

[Stratego89]

4 hours ago, BlackCoMerc said:

Right now it seems - and I want to stress, SEEMS like you first have to be LUCKY enough to even GET a projection at all.

Are you being serious right now dude? Like.. REALLY? This is a real question for you.

 

Projections = void keys. Do tell me just how INSANELY LUCKY you have to be to get UBER RARE void keys. A GRIND WALL? ARE YOU KIDDING? IT IS LITERALLY the same exact system we currently have only now we can control our rewards and do the missions anywhere instead of having to repeat the same void mission over and over.

 

You need to go back and read properly this time mate.

 

PS- as for the void tears I'm 90% sure I heard them say last stream that there will always be void tears (key word TEARS. PLURAL. MANY) open- and a selection of different mission types for them as well. The whole point is to give people options, not limit us.

Edited July 5, 2016 by Stratego89

[Kaotyke]

14 minutes ago, Foefaller said:

Maybe I didn't explain it right.

Once you finish the mission after completing the tear, there is a popup that shows what everyone got from their projection. You can then choose which of the rewards you want, with everyone getting their own copy. I'm assuming the mission doesn't actually "finish" until everyone their reward (or the timer for choosing runs out) so no leaving before your projection gets used.

 

13 minutes ago, Fionntan said:

Praise the sun then.

Thanks for the info, I'll edit my quote.

No, its not that, its like this:

4 People find the Tear, 1 tries to be a troll and doest use theirs while the other 3 use it, thinking he will get something.

At Extraction, there will be 3 Rewards you can chose, but the guy who didnt use his Projection? He will get NOTHING.

Edited July 5, 2016 by Venom-Snake

[Fionntan]

Just now, Venom-Snake said:

 

No, its not that, its like this:

4 People find the Tear, 1 tries to be a #$&(% and doest use theirs while the other 3 use it.

At Extraction, there will be 3 Rewards you can chose, but the guy who didnt use his Projection? He will get NOTHING.

That's still fine, hek even better.

Promotes sharing at least and slaps leechers for once.

[Foefaller]

2 minutes ago, Venom-Snake said:

 

No, its not that, its like this:

4 People find the Tear, 1 tries to be a #$&(% and doest use theirs while the other 3 use it.

At Extraction, there will be 3 Rewards you can chose, but the guy who didnt use his Projection? He will get NOTHING.

Oh yeah, forgot that part; if you don't come to the mission with a projection, you can't get a projection reward, full stop.

Though I suspect that the consumption of projections will be like Fomorian Sabatoge; if the tear gets closed, the projection you brought gets consumed, regardless of whether you "use" your projection or not.

[TennoPain]

I think DE WILL think about this new SYSTEM a lot because player base would go away in 1 min if they made it ''duble grind'' in any way 

 

[Arniox]

4 hours ago, BlackCoMerc said:

From the page:

"Every mission, a CHANCE to obtain a projection."

This is...bad. This does not sound like a chance to obtain SOME prime reward. But more like a CHANCE for any reward AT ALL.

"Bring that Projection to a Void Tear to charge it. Tears CAN spawn on any mission."

The SECOND grind wall. Will tears ALWAYS be available somewhere? Or will they spawn Alert style, for limited times? 

Right now it seems - and I want to stress, SEEMS like you first have to be LUCKY enough to even GET a projection at all. THEN you have to luck out AGAIN and get a Void Tear to spawn.

Which would be absolutely awful, in my opinion, and likely to turn me further away from playing.

No, they explained this before. The projections are KEYS. Right now with the current system, we all farm or gather void keys that are hidden behind a grind wall. This will remain, this will be the same as always so it wont be extra grind. Secondly, the tears are like alerts but from Devstream 76, they told us that there will always be at least 10-15 alerts up constantly and they're always changing to be dynamic. So no, it'll just be like always, and this will actually increases the want and enjoyment when farming void, and it'll decrease the actual grind cause you'll know exactly what you're getting.

[Kaotyke]

Just now, Foefaller said:

Oh yeah, forgot that part; if you don't come to the mission with a projection, you can't get a projection reward, full stop.

Though I suspect that the consumption of projections will be like Fomorian Sabatoge; if the tear gets closed, the projection you brought gets consumed, regardless of whether you "use" your projection or not.

I think it also depends on the tier, if you go to a Tier 1 Tear, and have a Projection of a different tier it wont be used.

[BlackCoMerc]

54 minutes ago, Foefaller said:

So, Dev workshop about this: 

Brief overview:

Projections confirmed to drop from endless missions, just like void keys

Projections will be divided by tier, but NOT tower; any T1 projection can be unlocked at any T1 tear mission, regardless of what said mission is.

Tear missions will have you find a tear in the mission, activated it, and do some sort of challenge

Everyone has a chance at picking another player's projection reward, people picking your reward gives you more luminous (the stuff you use to upgrade projections for better chances at rare rewards)

 

So yeah, you might no longer get more than one part per mission, but you'll have 4 shots at that part as long as 4 people are all bringing the same projection along, just like with a keyshare.

See...that doesnt sound so bad. Well, except the "do some challenge" part. I mean, if they're anything like the tedious mastery tests, thats a deal breaker for me. We already have to find or earn a projection on missions. THEN we have to run another mission and find the tear. Adding yet another task to perform will just make it even more redundant as we repeat these challenges time and again.

Other than that, it does seem too awful bad. Lets hope the implementation is not too far off from this.

[Arniox]

also, here: 

Read this. It literally explains everything. Just read

 

[WhisperByte]

My only fear is how many items will be tied to a single projection tier. Sure, we will be able to slooooowly increase the rare reward chances but if there are 10 rare items (maybe even more) per tier (I'm assuming 4 tiers) then we will still be at the mercy of the dice. Probably even more so.

[Kaotyke]

9 minutes ago, BlackCoMerc said:

See...that doesnt sound so bad. Well, except the "do some challenge" part. I mean, if they're anything like the tedious mastery tests, thats a deal breaker for me. We already have to find or earn a projection on missions. THEN we have to run another mission(1) and find the tear. Adding yet another task to perform will just make it even more redundant as we repeat these challenges time and again.(2)

Other than that, it does seem too awful bad. Lets hope the implementation is not too far off from this.

My gosh... I cant...

(1) You are complaining about something we already do.

(2) Sabotages are the same thing,

No, I wont, I wont.

Bye.

PS: Dont reply to me, I will see it bringing me back to this thread and I will ignore it.

Edited July 5, 2016 by Venom-Snake

[ranks21]

yet no info on how many is needed for a full charge as a single player<< my guess is 4  like a full squad or the raid equivalent.. ill be waiting on those praisers changing to criers.

[FoxyKabam]

this whole projections S#&amp;&#036; just feels way more complicated than it needs to be

[ranks21]

1 minute ago, FoxyKabam said:

this whole projections S#&amp;&#036; just feels way more complicated than it needs to be

lol

[ComfyOlivia]

2 hours ago, BlackCoMerc said:

Oh its you again.

So much salt. 

Did no one read the part where I said it SEEMS like more grind? And that I wanted to STRESS the SEEMS part? 

But ok, I will bite.

Current system:

1. Do Excavation (roughly 20 minutes)

2. Get 1-3 keys

3. Go to Void mission

4. Get 1-4 rewards

 

New System:

1. Go to mission

2. HOPE to get a Projection

3. Hope you have a projection to use on a Tear.

4. HOPE there is a tear available

5. Go to tear

6. Get ONE reward (not 3 or 4)

Except it hardly ever goes this smoothly. Yea, you get rewards, but you can bet half of them aren't gonna be prime parts. Additionally, odds are that you went into the void for a specific part. 

The rotation works out A,A,B,C. For three keys, you'd need to go to 11 Excavators. Assuming you're in a key farm, any mission aimed at T3/4 keys is going to have a hell of a time managing more than excavator at a time. So, yes, about 18-19 minutes. Now, here's the thing. You have about a 16.7% chance of a T3 key and an 11% chance of getting the T4 key you want from the excavator in their respective missions. Yes, alltogethor, your chance of getting a key at all is close to 100% in the B rotations, but what does it matter when the part you want only drops from one of the 6-7 keys you can get? Statistically, you'd need to do 6 excavators to be gaurunteed to get the T3 you want where it drops best, and you'd need to do 13 to be garunteed the T4 key you want where they drop best.

So, with the 3 key runs, statistically, you would need to do 2 18 minute runs to gauruntee your T3 key, and you'd need to do 4 18 minute missions to gaurntee your t4 Key. 

Now, this is Warframe, so RNG exists. You could get it on the first one. You could even get it after like 15 excavators. But, here's the thing: You get one key. Even with a keyshare, you still have a good chance to not get what you want. Now you have to go get more of that key. 

Now, about those 1-4 rewards. Each has a really good chance of being something that isn't even a Prime part. Chances are that you have a good chance of not even getting a prime part, and an even bigger chance of not getting an item you want. So, assuming you get 12 rewards from those three keys, you can bet about half of them won't be primed parts. Between Forma BPs, O cells, Fusion Cores, and the occasional credit packs, you're looking at some dilution. Statistically, you have a 1 in four chance of getting a rotation C item. Of four Rotations, one is a C rotation. Anything within the last two Prime Accesses is probably gonna set on those C rotations. A lot don't, but just look at the AkStilleto. Of the 6 parts you need for it, all are T4 Rotation C drops. Granted, it's an extreme example, but it's a good weapon. Anyways, with RNG, you have about a good of a chance of getting no C rotation drops as you do having all 6 of your remaining rewards being C drops. Now, each C rotation has about 5 parts that drop. Basically, of those C rotations you get that are prime parts, you have about a 1/5 chance of getting the item you want. And this is all without considering the actual drop percentages for the items. All-in-all, you probably have about a 10% chance of getting a newer item that you want from a C rotation.

So, assuming you want a drop from a C rotation on T4 Survival and you need a key, your adventure looks like this:

-33% chance for your T4 Survival Key on Hieracon after doing 3 excavators after 18 minutes. It could take only one mission, or it can take up to three or four, possibly more, but let's keep it reasonable. Anywhere from 18 minutes to an hour, which includes down time, reasonably.

-You do the T4S.

-Reasonably, most groups won't make it past an hour. So, 3 Rotation C rewards.

-Assuming your item has a 10% drop rate, you have a 30% chance of getting your item after an hour.

 

So, you could be lucky enough to get your item in about 30 minutes (5 minutes of excavators, 5 minutes downtime, and 20 minutes of Survival). Or you could be unlucky enough to have to do the excavation 3 times at 18 minutes each and then the survival 3 times at an hour each (about 4 hours total). Some people are unlucky enough to have to do more. And this is for one part of a weapon that requires at least 3 parts. Some parts have drop chances that look more like 5 percent, and some lower. 

Now, again, RNG is a huge factor. You can be lucky or unlucky. In the end, though, most weapons are probably going to take several hours of farming.

I'm not saying this may be better or worse than the new system. I'm just saying you're making it out to be less than what it is.

[lukinu_u]

I think the quantum projection will be earned just like the key currently.

[Hypernaut1]

I'm confident that if devs felt that the average player should play a mission 20x to get a certain prime part, it will stay that way no matter what the system they implement. 

They don't just do these things arbitrarily.  The grind is well studied and fine tuned.