Really DE? we are talking about how we hate nullifiers and you just... BUFF THEM? REALLY?

[BlackCoMerc]

44 minutes ago, Chroia said:

Welp, today's sortie 1 was fun...
Elemental resist Excavation.
As if Elemental resist Bursas, stacked guardian + cold eximi, or straight-up unfreezeable Crewmen (I'm assuming it's the sporadic 'undamageable' bug, but really, wtf?) weren't enough already, hope you have a high RoF weapon to pop Nullifier bubbles (I didn't. Woops.) before they pop yours with a feather-light touch.
And I'm fairly sure that Bursa nullgrenades act the same, on top of Bursas being - apparently - unfreezeable and unchillable, but it was too hectic to verify.

I mean, sure, it was doable (at least with a well modded loadout), at worst on a second run after regearing. Wasn't even particularly hard, as long as don't sit still (or do a heavy landing) for an incoming <1s TTK, but it was God was it irritating.
I honestly think I'd've been better off just bringing a straight CC frame and not bothering with a Globe. Or an Atlas.

 

And, being a Corpus Outpost tileset, I didn't even have to deal with ledges, just the occasional cover.

I've run two Sorties, and three trials.

And I refuse to do either ever again.

It's pure gear check, for combat. But mostly, it consists of players near constantly spamming CC to lock down whole maps. Nothing fun about it, to me.

[Chroia]

8 minutes ago, BlackCoMerc said:

I've run two Sorties, and three trials.

And I refuse to do either ever again.

It's pure gear check, for combat. But mostly, it consists of players near constantly spamming CC to lock down whole maps. Nothing fun about it, to me.

To the first:
I run sorties most days, solo as often as pug. I've run a few dozen trials, when I had a more-or-less usual group. Putting together a pug for it, in my experience, takes longer than actually completing LoR though, so I don't nowadays.

Yes, TTKs get stupid-low due to enemy level. So you compose a group that can DR and CC enough to make it a non-issue.
and DE add Disruptor Drones (read: flying nullifiers with a non-shrinking shield, but that are permanently vulnerable to weapons, themselves) to the Nightmare mode.
Still managable, still annoying.

Deja vu.

 

To the second:
As long as 'endgame' equals 'high level' and nothing else, then yeah, scaling pretty much guarantees that.
It's one of the reasons I left Firefall when they left beta. The scaling went through the roof.

[Marbelik]

On 7/8/2016 at 10:48 AM, PUR3K1LL3R said:

I mean it makes sense because we just (Or I mean I did) Exalted Bladed the bubble away and killed, and it's supposed to block/nullify all that is void energy/powers. It makes more sense from a corpus design standpoint.

Yeah they should only block void energy/powers not every single projectile that happens to come across it. If they did what they were intended to instead of being a barrier for everything, they should be fun to play against, since whenever you saw any bubble you know you should shoot down the damn enemy faster or it will "nullify" your warframe's powers. Being like this would make sniper rifles fun and engaging to use... But sadly it isnt like this.

[_Je_Suis_Bruxelles_]

In all honesty , I don't understand this adversity towards Nullifiers...Don't get me wrong,I enjoy spamming 4 just like anybody else but I don't think of them as a great threat.

At worst  they make me recast. 

They are easy to spot ,and easy to kill.

About the Sorties ones...if one goes into a Corpus sortie without a rapid fire option,or any other option to tackle their bubbles , frankly they are unprepared and have no one to blame but themselves.

Sure, they downed me a few times ,but the Sorties are supposed to be the hardest missions around.

...About the lore complaints,Nullifiers having no place in Warframe Universe...Stop lying to yourselves and Get Gud. Really. This is such a poor excuse.

Any Anti-Tenno faction would search far a way to level the playing field.

 

[BlackCoMerc]

49 minutes ago, _Je_Suis_Bruxelles_ said:

In all honesty , I don't understand this adversity towards Nullifiers...Don't get me wrong,I enjoy spamming 4 just like anybody else but I don't think of them as a great threat.

At worst  they make me recast. 

They are easy to spot ,and easy to kill.

About the Sorties ones...if one goes into a Corpus sortie without a rapid fire option,or any other option to tackle their bubbles , frankly they are unprepared and have no one to blame but themselves.

Sure, they downed me a few times ,but the Sorties are supposed to be the hardest missions around.

...About the lore complaints,Nullifiers having no place in Warframe Universe...Stop lying to yourselves and Get Gud. Really. This is such a poor excuse.

Any Anti-Tenno faction would search far a way to level the playing field.

 

Sigh.

Here we go again. Nice superiority complex there.

We aren't complaining about Nullifiers being hard. They aren't. They are tedious and annoying, but not hard.

Also, they take away the very thing that makes Warframe unique. That's bad.

[MJ12]

Honestly Nullifiers protecting enemies from powers in the bubble isn't as much of a problem as Nullifiers making a lot of buff-dependent warframes less useful, especially now with the Void Fissure system where you can have a null bubble literally spawn on your face with no warning, deactivating all your buffs and powers.

If you're in a Nullifier bubble, powers should run their duration or consume energy at an accelerated rate, rather than simply turning off instantly. So for example, 1s in a nullifier bubble counts for 5s of power use, or if it's like Iron Skin/Snow Globe/Effigy etc it takes 5% of its maximum health per second worth of damage. This means a nullifier jumping you is dangerous but not impossible to deal with, assuming the damage cap gets nuked so other weapons are viable against it.

[AzyWng]

4 minutes ago, MJ12 said:

If you're in a Nullifier bubble, powers should run their duration or consume energy at an accelerated rate, rather than simply turning off instantly.

This seems like a fairly sensible solution. But then again, it benefits me as the player, so maybe I'm being biased.

[(PSN)B_Psycho2]

Very sensible. I applaud.

[Xzorn]

1 hour ago, _Je_Suis_Bruxelles_ said:

In all honesty , I don't understand this adversity towards Nullifiers...Don't get me wrong,I enjoy spamming 4 just like anybody else but I don't think of them as a great threat.

At worst  they make me recast. 

They are easy to spot ,and easy to kill.

About the Sorties ones...if one goes into a Corpus sortie without a rapid fire option,or any other option to tackle their bubbles , frankly they are unprepared and have no one to blame but themselves.

Sure, they downed me a few times ,but the Sorties are supposed to be the hardest missions around.

...About the lore complaints,Nullifiers having no place in Warframe Universe...Stop lying to yourselves and Get Gud. Really. This is such a poor excuse.

Any Anti-Tenno faction would search far a way to level the playing field.

 

Lore has weight in an RPG stylized game, if you want to believe that or not is up to you. IMO Nullifiers make sense for Corpus however Corrupted Nullifiers make no damn sense at all. How did they get Corrupted? They're Immune to Tenno and by relation Orokin powers.

You've stated yourself one of the many problems with Nullifiers "If one goes into a Corpus Sortie without a rapid fire option...." This is not skillful or knowledge based, this is nothing more than weapon favoritism that we don't need. We have damage types and status effects for specializing our weapons and as a result the more skillful non-spray weapons suffer.

It's not about spamming 4, it's never been about that. It's about countering the CC meta in which DE is responsible for in the first place.

Majority of people who don't understand the problems that Nullifiers present haven't had to deal with them at any significant level and I'm not talking about Sorties level either. The Nullifier isn't what usually kills you, it's the CC Immune Heavy inside with a hit-scan weapon or the Detron Creman that sprays flack the size of you're viewable area when even a single pellet can kill you.

As someone who's been to lvl 1,725  T3 Defense. I retort your own comment. Git Gud.

[BlackCoMerc]

Today:

Nullifier BUbble. Overlapping ANOTHER Nullifier bubble. The second Nullifier was an ARCTIC Eximus Nullifier. He had a Nullifier bubble AND A Frost Dome, BOTH moving with him.

Under the pair of them:

Bursa, Bombard, Toxic Ancient, Slow Scramba with a knockdown spam rocket launcher.

So:

Charge the bubble. I cant; Frost Eximus is slowing me down.

Take cover and shoot: I cant. Splash damage is knocking me down in this crowded corpus hallway.

Run for it: See also, knockdown AND slowdown.

Finally managed, half dead, to dodge roll like an idiot down the hallway and take the bubble down. Then the Dome. THEN the Nullifier.

Then, Avalanche Spam until everything else was dead. Because by that time keeping that horde, and the new one spawning from the next fissure, on CC lockdown, were my only options.

This is getting out of hand and it NEEDS to be fixed. I'm no longer running corpus missions. Period. This is ridiculous. 

Matter of fact...think I might log off. I know Destiny just got an update, and my PS4 is gathering dust. The game isnt perfect, but at least its fair.

[Tsunero]

3 hours ago, Chroia said:

Welp, today's sortie 1 was fun...
Elemental resist Excavation.
As if Elemental resist Bursas, stacked guardian + cold eximi, or straight-up unfreezeable Crewmen (I'm assuming it's the sporadic 'undamageable' bug, but really, wtf?) weren't enough already, hope you have a high RoF weapon to pop Nullifier bubbles (I didn't. Woops.) before they pop yours with a feather-light touch.
And I'm fairly sure that Bursa nullgrenades act the same, on top of Bursas being - apparently - unfreezeable and unchillable, but it was too hectic to verify.

I mean, sure, it was doable (at least with a well modded loadout), at worst on a second run after regearing. Wasn't even particularly hard, as long as you don't sit still (or do a heavy landing) for an incoming <1s TTK, but God was it irritating.
I honestly think I'd've been better off just bringing a straight CC frame and not bothering with a Globe. Or maybe an Atlas.

 

And, being a Corpus Outpost tileset, I didn't even have to deal with ledges, just the occasional cover.

Unariu turned them into stone for me but that's pretty much the only counter xD but at least I can turn everything into stone except bosses. Dunno if Atlas works.

Edited August 4, 2016 by Momo93

[Snowbluff]

3 hours ago, BlackCoMerc said:

Matter of fact...think I might log off. I know Destiny just got an update, and my PS4 is gathering dust. The game isnt perfect, but at least its fair.

I do like both Destiny and Warframe. I haven't been playing a whole lot of destiny, but boy do I like the PvP and how Handcannons feel in that game.

[Multicom-EN-]

Bump!!!

[BlackCoMerc]

5 minutes ago, bbeeaann said:

    Seriously, I explain the multiple ways to kill a bubble and you focus on one of my points...I completely understand why DE is buffing Nullifiers. Your argument basically boils down to, "I can't kill Nullifiers in an easy fashion. Remove them from the game!"

Ano now you're just lying about what I said. Least i quoted you.

My argument is that they restrict numerous weapon types. Make entire frames worthless, especially on Europa. And Rob Warframe of what makes it unique.

That's my argument. And it has NOTHING to do with Difficulty, real or perceived. Why can you not understand that?

[BlackCoMerc]

2 minutes ago, bbeeaann said:

   I've yet to lie about what you've said. I've given you 3 ways to kill a nullifier and you state that I've only stated you kill the mob by charging. That is only one of the ways I've stated you can kill them, but if you wish to continue to make erroneous statements feel free. Your argument is moot. You have 3 weapons you can bring, and all of which can easily kill Nullifiers if modded properly. Frames in this game are only useless because the player using them is doing it in a less optimal fashion. I kill Nullifers with my powers all the time. I explained how to do this, but you prefer to carry on playing the victim..

It's not playing victim. It's describing a reality.

Challenge in games can be offered with massive restrictions on player tool sets and input. DE just doesn't bother trying. And this isn't an insult; it's an observable truth.

We need better enemy design as oppised to cheap, limiting gimmicks like now overused power Immunity.

[WrathAscending]

I think that Comba/Scramba units handle the intended power-cancelling role of Nullifiers more elegantly than Nullifiers themselves do, while offering more compelling gameplay.

This being said there's still a role for Nullifiers. Grineer troopers carry Brunts into battle and set them up; Nullifiers could retain their shield mechanics and serve the same function, but lose their power-cancelling abilities. Then perhaps tweak the likelihood of Comba/Scramba units spawning to add variety.

[IceColdHawk]

11 minutes ago, bbeeaann said:

Now you're claiming DE isn't bothering to put the time and effort in to make their game challenging.

Implying nullifiers are challenging.

[IceColdHawk]

Just now, bbeeaann said:

      They're not a challenge to players who adapt. Nullifiers are designed to hinder your progress. They are also designed to make you either charge and get inside their bubble to kill them up close and personal with the weapon of your choice, or burn down their bubble so you can kill them from range, with said weapon of your choice, or your powers. Nullifiers cause players to adapt instead of roll their face on the keyboard to win.

But that's not true. I mean, they probably exist for the reasons you mentioned. But they don't fulfill their task. I pretty much summed up the issues in one post:

6 minutes ago, IceColdHawk said:

Nullifiers: The more you patch them, the more the community gets dissatisfied. Where we once could kill them with AoE, atomos lasers or even a glaive throwing in, it doesn't work anymore and thus the problem of the nullifiers just starts to get more noticable. Especially after "fixing" the inconsistency issue about nullies where they are now able to instantly destroy a stacked up frost globe JUST by touching it.

The problem is simple. I suppose nullifier got added to counter ability spamming which is fine i guess. The problem though is, they also counter anything which has not a high rate of fire to quickly dispatch the bubble. AoEs are laughably ineffective. Shotguns and Sniper/Bows just take too long and in general have not so much ammo as an assault rifle. And frames that actually rely on their abilities than being tanky on their own will look totally old. Good example would be vauban whose spells just get deleted by a simple touch by the huge bubble. Also a big problem is their rather high spawn rate paired with their habit of assaulting you rather than sniping you from afar.

So in conclusion, they encourage the usage of bullet spamming (à la boltor prime) to continue with CC spamming or just mindless "inside-bubble-meleesliding" which can be sometimes a suicidal move depending on your frame and which enemy appears to be in the bubble. Not to mention it dispells your ability buffs when you enter it. While the managing of your bullets, aiming and general sniping are just too ineffective to be considered. A good example of that IMHO would be the combas/scrambus. Everyone has their own type of abilities that he/she dispells and not just EVERYTHING. And you can counter them through a well placed shot against the helmet. That is good!

So, the question is, Are you considering to remove or tweak them accordingly to not be so annoyingly unfair compared to other units? Because as of now, they are more of an annoying enemy that restricts build diversity rather than being a challenge.

And also a real scenario:

On 20.7.2016 at 11:38 AM, IceColdHawk said:

*goes to play creative vauban for fissure mission*

Player 1: "Oh yeah, guys? Lemme plant some teslas here first. And maybe a vortex over there! It's a TRAP!"

*nullifier spawns and deletes everything in a blink of an eye*

P1: "Mhhhhhm, FUUUUUUUN......."

P2: "Bruh, stop crying you cheesy noob and git gud."

P3: "Told ya it's not gonna work. Let me do this!"

*slides with orthos prime/lesion everything away*

P3: "Ez pz lemon sqez."

P2: "I still love nullifiers! They add challenge and fun and make us think and add creative gaming tactics!11"

*P4 & P1 putting P2 on ignore*

The end.

They are not challenging, not fun and not fair. They exist to stop "ability spam"? But all they do is make corpus and snipers unfun.

[BrutalerTodesschuetze]

Whoever thought them up was either high on bath salts or just likes to see us players suffer. It's inheritly anti-fun and that's just one big nono for me. They need change or to go from the game but the way we have it now is just bad

[BiancaRoughfin]

Oh please let this topic die? Its been more than a month now, we all know Nullifiers are a pain but they can be easily picked off by jumping into their bubble and shooting them or slicing them in half which is what i have been doing and so far has been working much better than staying inside the snowglobe waiting for its bubble to deplete or complaining on the forums.

[Flirk2]

2 hours ago, bbeeaann said:

    Seriously, I explain the multiple ways to kill a bubble and you focus on one of my points...I completely understand why DE is buffing Nullifiers. Your argument basically boils down to, "I can't kill Nullifiers in an easy fashion. Remove them from the game!"

I'm sorry, what ''multiple ways''? There are only 2 ways to kill that bubble:

1) Damage it with weapons for some time (or spam a direct damage power if your current frame has one)

2) Kill the nullifier in the bubble.

And here comes a problem.

Option 1 makes some weapons preferable to others. While option 2 makes some warframes preferable to others.

There is nothing difficult in taking frame A and weapon loadout B. If you have those things, that is. What's difficult is keeping interest in the game while constantly using those things and nothing else. I really hope you don't want that kind of difficulty in the game.

Each and every suggestion how to kill a nullifier is a variation of the 2 above. And is completely and utterly obvious. And known to all of those arguing against the nullifier as a unit.

But you can continue to ignore the little fact, that while people who argue against nullifiers are perfectly capable to deal with them, do so quite often and know all the ''tactics'', they are annoyed by constrictive nature of those 2 options.

2 hours ago, bbeeaann said:

      They're not a challenge to players who adapt. Nullifiers are designed to hinder your progress. They are also designed to make you either charge and get inside their bubble to kill them up close and personal with the weapon of your choice, or burn down their bubble so you can kill them from range, with said weapon of your choice, or your powers. Nullifiers cause players to adapt instead of roll their face on the keyboard to win.

There is nothing to adapt to. One needs to just not rely on warframe powers (you know, that thing that makes warframe somewhat unique) and be ready to deal with impenetrable but slowly shrinking shield.

As for your second point...

Let's forget for a moment that not every frame has a direct damage power that could be used on nullifier.

The ones that have need 5 shots to shrink that bubble. Now tell me, do you really advocate for that kind of ''power spam''? Use a power 5 times on one unit when there are usually 2 - 5 of the same kind in the room? Isn't that what you defend in nullifiers? That they stop ''power spam''?

I really don't get people like that. They literally go:

- Nullifiers are there to provide a challenge.

then in the next sentence

- Nullifiers are not a challenge to players who adapt.

Do you want to insult your opponents that much? Insinuating that they are challenged by the unit (while no one who argues against nullifiers actually called them a challenge) just because they don't know how to adapt? Because that's what it feels like to me.

Edited August 9, 2016 by Flirk2

[(PSN)Crixus044]

Nullifiers where created in a time when Saryn was the ultimate nuke frame, Rhino Prime was still considered OP, Excalibur was either a blind king of radial javelin freak, and Mesa was a kill steal turret. Things have changed since then. Rhino is so unpopular now, that I don't even think people were sad that he was leaving. Mesa is no longer a turret, but instead is an adaptive gunslinger. Saryn is still one of the best DPS frames in game, but she is not the Press4ToWin frame she use to be. Excalibur is a powerful CC-DPS frame that is a staple for any player that wants some good old fashioned starter frame fun in endgame. The LAST P4TW frame we have is Ash, who is getting reworked. Now YOU tell me, what needs to adapt, our playstyle, which has adapted to the reworked frames, or the obsolete enemy that doesn't serve a purpose anymore except to annoy. 

[Multicom-EN-]

7 hours ago, BiancaRoughfin said:

Oh please let this topic die? Its been more than a month now, we all know Nullifiers are a pain but they can be easily picked off by jumping into their bubble and shooting them or slicing them in half which is what i have been doing and so far has been working much better than staying inside the snowglobe waiting for its bubble to deplete or complaining on the forums.

Do that at high levels with Bombards and everything else around you. Ain't happening. Atleast not solo.

[SanguineSavant]

I'm fine with power counteraction but feel annoyed that the only way to really kill a nullifier from the outset is dive in and hope you melee him to death among the other enemies he will be carrying under the hood, which gets a lot of guys in high tier missions killed, or have a rapid fire weapon to hand. Frankly I'd prefer a calculation of weapon damage where one solid good hit can do as much as a rapid series of bullets just so people aren't pushed into a box over it.

[Herosupport]

Nulifiers should have a weakness to travel time weapons they should pass through the bubble and deal damage to the corpus cheese unit.