Possible Banshee Rework.

[MillbrookWest]

1 hour ago, KrazyKubrowLady said:

Ok we all know that Banshee needs a rework....

Why is this always the point of entry for a discussion on Banshee's skillset? No, we don't all know that, nor all agree, anyone who has actually invested time into the frame can tell you she walks on being very OP as it stands. People generally aren't interested in investing that time however, and go for the more 'neutral', or 'tanky' frames since they are easier to pick up and play - Excal, Rhino etc. Therefore, the statistic that she is the least used isn't exclusive with the state of her abilities. Something scott concurred with on the very stream posted (something that generally gets omitted when bringing up said stream)

But as for the contents of the OP, her first ability is pretty good as is. Having a sustained SB, is a bit counter to what people use the first abilities for. It's a quick button press that achieves a desired goal quickly for little energy cost. Having it be a toggle would go against her design. You are asking banshee to stand there (chroma style), with a minimum range ability, and lock a small area? The idea may sound good in theory, but in practice, what are you gunna do about all the enemies outside this range? You have removed Banshee's ability to manoeuvre away from enemy fire by locking her into an animation. The end result is people just tapping it anyway to avoid being shot at.

Second ability, as i said, she is bordering on being too OP. You don't want resonance as a base skillset of Sonar. You should feel the pain of wanting that extra convenience. Because you can work around it in practice by spamming Sonar. It achieves a similar goal, but with much higher power drain.

Her third, this one could use some tweaking, i will concede that. your proposed idea doesn't achieve that. You state she shouldn't be a brawler, yet the idea is an ability that only really works if you are brawling. A better solution would be to implement what banshee players were suggesting for her passive. Rather than a sphere of silence, it should be a sphere of noise that interrupts enemies ability to aim, giving them a accuracy debuff. This works for all her intended playstyles - Be it brawler, or support, and is in keeping with her high risk, high reward gameplay style.

Her fourth. I thought the intent was to make it function more like sound? It sounds more like Gravity if im being honest. The default SQ works, its damage falls off quite quickly, but like Sonar, her augment adds to it, and makes it more viable. If i would change anything about it as it stands, i would make it so that the enemies stun animation wasn't so pronounced. Currently, they are punted out of range rather quickly. But otherwise, i'm indifferent to a SQ so long as it retains it's ability to be called an 'Ult'. The current one does that, the effectiveness of the ability can be argued, but it works as is, and is not broken.

BTW, i take my banshee on every lvl 100 sortie. My feedback would be to give her a health buff. It's not damage that kills her, its 'direct to health' procs in my case. Infested, Grineer, and Corpus all have abilities that bypass her shields and go straight for health, meaning when you do get hit, you feel her low armour stats a whole lot more when you don't have a max tank of health to cushion that incoming damage. For new players, this is probably why they fail with her. They can't make her survivable throughout a mission, and therefore cease to play her. They don't have all the mods higher end players have that give you back health, and the game itself is stingy on giving out health orbs in the first place.

Additionally; I love this frame because she makes the enemies level redundant. Her abilities scale for all enemy level types. You just have to mod for whatever level you are playing at. I've seen savage banshee builds that literally make the Braton end game viable. I've seen Silence builds that lock down insane stretches of map as the team move from point to point, and i've seen SQ builds that literally go on for eternity. She isn't in a bad place at all. There are many other frames in dire need of attention. Banshee isn't one of them. 

Edited July 25, 2016 by MillbrookWest

[RyanGo]

DON'T YOU TOUCH HER D:<

(unless you're going to fix silence so it prevents enemies from being alerted by other enemies/deaths)

EDIT: alright I actually took the time to read your re-work.

I disagree that Banshee is in a particularly bad place, but nonetheless your ideas are indeed buffs.

Sonic boom change. Really just seems like a bit of a preference thing. Atlas's stone gaze and Chroma's spectral scream already exist and are varying degrees of useful (atlas's is better) but a key thing is that it hinders your mobility greatly, and leaves you an easy target to unaffected enemies, and banshee can't afford to take hits unlike atlas/chroma tanks. Granted your 3rd ability suggestion would provide some survivability, but it's a bit of a gimp to have to cast 3 in order to cast your 1.
As it is now, sonic boom is a fast bit of cc in a pinch that doesn't keep you still for too long. Actually while we're on the subject it would be a very nice change if sonic boom got a casting speed buff/change to mobile casting instead of static casting. Hell if it became an instantaneous mobile cast (as if she had just uttered an impulse that knock enemies down using just her voice without the use of her hands, that would be a very nice change. It does feel a bit clunky to use, only the augment really justifies the balance of having to stay still to cast it.

Sonar change: Would be a fan of resonance being built in, but resonance is an incredibly powerful augment. So from a balance perspective I hesitate, but as an avid user I would love it. Resonance is the augment I consider most useful tho i like many of her other ones and it would be nice to try them out for a change. Again though, would it be balanced? Honestly I don't really see a problem with it, thinking about it....

Silence change: Originally I did like the idea of silence providing a stealth aspect to banshee, being a fan of stealth myself. Changing it to survivability would greatly change the focus of banshee I think, and I'm not sure I would prefer that. I like her versatility to be useful in loud missions or stealthy ones. However you do make a good point that silence's usefulness is somewhat diminished by the fact that banshee's passive is now silencing weapons. So to that end I think silence could definitely use some kind of stealth-related improvement to compensate. 

I do like the theme of oscillation as an IRL acoustics engineer. +1

Sound Quake: Armor stripping sounds like a very interesting addition to sound quake and I would welcome it whole heartedly. One thing though, you seem to be suggesting it 2% additively (IE 50 hits to completely remove armor) but these kinds of percentages are usually done multiplicatively and in that case 50 hits would only reduce enemy armor to 36% or so....which actually isn't that bad considering it could be affected by power strength.

In sum, you present some good improvements to banshee but it definitely feels like you want to push her more towards being a purely assault/support frame rather than her current niche as a versatile support/semi-stealth. I personally disagree with this change, all frames have their purposes and if you're looking for an assault oriented frame there are plenty of other options.

Edited July 25, 2016 by RyanGo

[Kastorius]

I love Banshee and play her whenever I can. She's why I have five Forma on the Latron Prime.

I think her abilities are fine as-is. The true issues with Banshee aren't really caused by Banshee's own design, but by the design of Warframe's current gameplay.

For one thing, Warframe has become a horde-clearing game: Most players bring bazookas or bullet hoses to deal with huge packs of enemies. Shooting one weak point at a time, no matter how fast and accurate you are, can't compare to a Mirage using the Spamoid Scrubulor to evaporate 20 enemies per second. Banshee is even less necessary now that the Relic system has been introduced and endless Void missions no longer provide desirable rewards; adding to that, Fissure enemies instantly appear in the vicinity one by one, which is a substantial detriment to the way Sonar and Resonance function.

In essence, Sonar simply isn't needed to instakill enemies anywhere outside of Sorties. You can blow up piles of enemies with any old weapon, now. The Ignis gives Banshee's Sonar substantial crowd-clearing capabilities, but that takes all the fun out of it.

She comes in very handy in Sorties, though, especially if there's a Nova or Frost around so that the squad has an easier time aiming at Sonar weak points.

Edited July 25, 2016 by Kastorius

[V45H]

ok captain obvious

[Aquasurge]

36 minutes ago, RyanGo said:

Silence change: Originally I did like the idea of silence providing a stealth aspect to banshee, being a fan of stealth myself. Changing it to survivability would greatly change the focus of banshee I think, and I'm not sure I would prefer that. I like her versatility to be useful in loud missions or stealthy ones. However you do make a good point that silence's usefulness is somewhat diminished by the fact that banshee's passive is now silencing weapons. So to that end I think silence could definitely use some kind of stealth-related improvement to compensate. 

I do like the theme of oscillation as an IRL acoustics engineer. +1

perhaps if silence was made into some kind of vacuum power? (not the mod)

[Matt89Connor]

a few rework on banshee can be useful, vibration is an idea , but banshee is not a tank frame  XD

[TaylorsContraction]

7 hours ago, Mr.Lube said:

No need for a Banshee rework. She is one of the most well balanced Warframes in the game right now.

OP has no idea what he's talking about sorry. Banshee, underwhelming? Here's a novel idea for ya,

Caster frames with no armor need to invest in shields, not HP. Shield mods by themselves are too weak to make shield defense a thing but couple arcane barrier + arcane aegis and now you have yourself a shield tank. You will need to use fortitude and ideally shield recharge for the run'n'gun build.

Sonic boom is an amazing cc that with its augment can strip all armor with just transient fortitude equipped. It makes grineer missions doable without 4 cp or without needing the cutscene simulator (ash) in the "augment armor" sorties.

OP your suggestion for sonic boom would KILL BANSHEE. My god it's like you haven't even tried to use this frame. She isn't a tank, Sonic boom is her engagement tool. You jump into the frey while still in the air cast sonic boom (with stretch on) EVERYONE is now knocked down (so long there aren't ancient healers blocking cc). Now you must kill everyone before they get back up (and all their armor is gone too). If it looks like you aren't going to kill everyone you have to move move move, banshee is not a frame for standing around in one place toggling a ;lakj;lkaj ability. Jebus.

sonar is an amazing ability. It adds utility and damage. It also has an amazing augment. If you are playing with a group and don't have resonance cast sonar 3-4 times, you'll have lit up the enemies enough that your friends who can't aim will still hit weak spots. Of course why you aren't using resonance is beyond me. With this augment you just need to cast sonar once, aim a few shots and next thing you know the enemies are lit up just as well and you had to use less energy for it.

Look I can go on and on but I disagree with all of your suggestions, you don't know how to play squish caster frames, I think your suggestions are all bad and turn banshee into something she's not. She is one of the underused frames but is extremely powerful especially with resonating quake. 40 waves of defense (with 4 cp) and clear the room in 1-2 casts. Sorry for the rambling but I am just infuriated with OP who never even put any thought into how to build or use banshee and comes here with a rework that is garbage in comparison.

 

Edited July 25, 2016 by TaylorsContraction

[BlitzkriegBob]

I started again playing Banshee massively not so long time ago, and I have to say... that I don't feel like she needs a rework.

Her kits allows her already to do different things according to how you want to play (stealth, snipe, melle hit-and-run...) and augments make interesting builds. I guess most people just don't play her because she lacks tankiness and is difficult to be kept alive at higher levels.

Many threads have been open already about banshee rework. At most, I think (but that's only me) she could use some small tuning. I really, really would like Sonar to show ennemies through walls in a similar way as codex scanner (maybe as an augment?) to improve stealth possibilities. Ok, and also because I like to shoot people through walls and door with Dread or Paris Prime, but then again that's only me. Also, on another thread, someon was suggesting Sonic boom could deviate some slow projectiles, llike Bombard and Helion missiles: not a game changer, but fun enough to be appealing.

So: full rework? hell, no. Small tuning? Yeah, why not? For the moment, I am still adjusting my loadouts with her, trying multiple combinations, and having lots of fun the way she is now.

 

[KirukaChan]

I think what would really help Banshee right now the most is making Silence recastable. That stun is really helpful, since unlike Sound Quake, it can ignore Ancient Healer auras.

[DatDarkOne]

DK and QuitteShy found a way to make it recastable. They lowered the duration as low as they could go. It gave a similar effect to it being recastable.

[Grumpy]

9 hours ago, Mr.Lube said:

No need for a Banshee rework. She is one of the most well balanced Warframes in the game right now.

I agree also, but people are going to request reworks for all of the frames, even after they've been reworked into the ground.  Just seems to be the norm....

[Tatersail]

nice to see somebody that has clearly not played banshee suggest a total rework :)

 

Her 1 is decent cheap aoe cone CC and removes armor using augment, armor removal is very strong for a simple spam-able skill

Her 2 is the largest damage buff in the game letting players deal millions to billions of damage, it stacks, resonance is just icing on the cake.

Her 3 is solid aoe CC used correctly, it also sets up finishers for huge armor ignore damage, you can also use it to silence your guns if that floats your boat.. but no real banshee player uses that.

Her 4 is admittedly lackluster used mainly for CC or trash clearing similar to many frames 4's - but the augment means you can push the damage and range up to 5500/s at 100m range adds some strength and buffs and you get a 20,000 damage a second aoe that covers almost any map.   Armor is the only real issue similar to ember.  4 corrosive projection and I have used this in the old t4 void defense to 80 and clearing is pretty fast(under 30 second).  its just dull and you get flagged afk a lot. past 80 would have been casual, but boredom stopped play.

 

she makes most content quite trivial and is arguably the most powerful frame in game since magnetize nerf.

she is however a touch dull to play, and not as satisfying as others.

You get no Epeen damage % in the end of mission score from adding 1400% damage to other players, her 4 is really dull, spending 4 mins blanketing the map in high damage is dull for both banshee and other players.  

Edited July 25, 2016 by Tatersail

[Lyravain]

I like Banshee as she is, with the skills she has and everything she is at the moment.

Does she need a bit of love? Yes, most definitely. A bit of armor and health would go a long way into making her that much more popular -as Quiette once stated; every stray bullet can end your miserable life. And take away Silence's annoying habit of warning my enemies that I'm getting close. Other than that, she's pretty good and would only need a bit more synergy in her kit (for example, Sound Quake and Sonic Boom hitting weak points as detected by a previously-cast Sonar).

[KrazyKubrowLady]

I like how people keep saying i've never played banshee or I don't know how to use her. See the problem here is that I do. I play her exactly how everyone else plays her and that's the problem. All I see is sonar and silence. there isn't any interactivity compared to other warframes that do the job better like Excal, Mirage, Nova, and even Equinox (Day 4). Even Loki has more interactivity and survivability than banshee.

 

My Intent was to make her more interactive and more useful.

I combined her sonar and current sonar augment into one thing and made her silence into a team wide radial stun augment which would also make said stun recastable. so I don't see how people are getting so salty about this as it isn't completely gone.

Her first ability is still a cone aoe and you can still use the current augment with it for armor strip. So that would still be useful. 

her new ability would give her more armor therefore would be more survivable on her own. As it stands right now she always needs someone with her at all times. Her augment would apply it to allies as well. This would be cast while moving. you don't have to stop and cast it.

Soundquake needed something that people won't just go off and leave the banshee alone to deal with the crap. I tried to make it to where banshee would be able to armor strip (since that's a big thing right now) making it easier for her teamates to go around her soundquake and kill those stripped of armor. The augment would help prioritize. In a perfect world, banshee would prioritize heavies/bombards, stripping their armor more than those outside of the soundquake for her teamates to prioritize more than those outside of it.

My problem that I see here is people are skimming through this rework and not actually reading. Otherwise people wouldn't be so salty about the silent removal as it is integrated with sonar via augment.

[felixsylvaris]

Banshee kit is ok in design. We can argue about numbers or tweaks, but no need to "rework:.

Most players prefer Blade Strom complexity, and most game is best suited for Blade Storm complexity. So dont expect any sniper frame to be super popular.

If we want to mess around:

1. She is squishy, it happens, but could be a bit less squishy. Rising her shields to 150/450 would help that. Her kit is not forgiving (no stealth) and she is not always range.
2. She requires a lot of mods to work, mod slots (syndicate mods). There is a idea of adding one "syndicate mod" slot. And that idea would benefit Banshee even more.
3. She starts wotj Madurai aura polarity, which may give wrong idea (steel charge and such). Since her kit is Naramon.
4. Sonic Boom lack boom part. It deals no damage. Not every ability need damage, especially when has some other effect. But death is best CC. We could add it 400 damage (as all other skill 1) and it will not be OP. At least it will be useful in your regular zerg rush.
5. Silence dosnt work very well in Survival missions, which are also part of game. What could be done is allowing to recast Silence for half the price to refresh duration and apply new stun.
6. Resoanance does not add much, and could be added to basic ability, or make ability to tick every sec to apply effect on new enemiec.

We can ascend numbers by a pitch, but no need for rework. That would most likely do more harm.

Edited July 26, 2016 by felixsylvaris

[-TSA-Rubicon2.0]

15 hours ago, Mr.Lube said:

It seems that your knowledge of Banshee is extremely limited.

so true man, so true... Banshee is pretty good warframe, if the change her,this gona be another step to the "dead"

[EinheriarJudith]

while i love banshee something about silence seems off. the odd things im speaking of is how it also deafens banshee. imo i believe she is emitting a sort of constant high frequency sound that should only affect enemies able to hear it(dont know why machines are affected but ok). Muffle =/= Deafen. your weapons only become silent because the enemies hearing is impaired giving it that muffled effect. i very much dislike the deafened affect she receives when it is her own ability after all she is the queen of sound.

[KrazyKubrowLady]

16 minutes ago, EinheriarJudith said:

while i love banshee something about silence seems off. the odd things im speaking of is how it also deafens banshee. imo i believe she is emitting a sort of constant high frequency sound that should only affect enemies able to hear it(dont know why machines are affected but ok). Muffle =/= Deafen. your weapons only become silent because the enemies hearing is impaired giving it that muffled effect. i very much dislike the deafened affect she receives when it is her own ability after all she is the queen of sound.

 

keep in mind her passives automatically silence her weapons as well, making silence all the more useless.

[EinheriarJudith]

1 minute ago, KrazyKubrowLady said:

keep in mind her passives automatically silence her weapons as well, making silence all the more useless.

haha you just broke my heart with that =(. possible oversight?

[(PSN)Lei-Lei_23]

3 hours ago, felixsylvaris said:

Or make loot magne inate ability of warframes so players could use shade [...]

I don't mean to derail this topic, but you should feel ashamed to even suggest the Sentinel-That-Should-Not-Be-Named or uttered. It doesn't utilize its intended purpose (Cloak) unless it is facing the enemy. Its only saving grace is the Prisma variant's Sentinel Gun, Prisma Burst Laser, which can elemental CC targets automatically with all of the maxed out fire-rate mods without any hiccups from reload (since reload speed is 0).

Huras and Luck Kitty are much, much better options.

[KrazyKubrowLady]

9 minutes ago, EinheriarJudith said:

haha you just broke my heart with that =(. possible oversight?

probably. 

Though It's why I kinda wanted to make it an augment for sonar. you get a re-castable radial stun and it would silence the team's weapons as well.

[Azrael]

1 hour ago, KrazyKubrowLady said:

keep in mind her passives automatically silence her weapons as well, making silence all the more useless.

Okay, this is getting ridiculous. People have commented many times now that silence is not useless, that in fact it's very powerful. You say that you play her all the time, but every time you talk about her you show that you don't know what you're talking about. First of all, silence isn't just meant to silence your own guns, it also silences the enemy's guns. Granted it's kinda bugged right now, but that's just a bug. Second, silence is more about the stun than the silence, and that part of it is exceptionally powerful. 

5 hours ago, KrazyKubrowLady said:

I play her exactly how everyone else plays her and that's the problem. All I see is sonar and silence.

You need to learn how the pros play her. Not just the pubs. 

 

5 hours ago, KrazyKubrowLady said:

As it stands right now she always needs someone with her at all times.

Not true. She can be played solo if you are good. Melee-only savage banshee played solo is interactive, challenging, and rewarding. 

 

5 hours ago, KrazyKubrowLady said:

My problem that I see here is people are skimming through this rework and not actually reading. Otherwise people wouldn't be so salty about the silent removal as it is integrated with sonar via augment.

I did see this, actually. The problem is that her 2 would be stupidly OP, while her 3 would be a waste of an ability for this caster frame. An ability that does sonar, resonance, and silence-style stuns is insanely overpowered. 

[PsychedelicSnake]

Personally, the only changes I would make to Banshee are:

• Her 1st ability being changed to a "one-handed" casting. Basically, she can cast it while moving similar to Ember's Fireball, Vauban's Abilities, etc.
• Her 3rd ability being a radial toggle, similar to the upcoming Nekros Desecrate change.
• Her armor being buffed up a bit, since she's super squishy. I use her quite well and her abilities are useful for negating damage, but she can get one-shot very easily in a lot of situations if you slip up for even a second.

[felixsylvaris]

Something about toggle: they seems not work well with mana regenerating abilities, like mods or schools. Which could make a huge difference.

[Aquasurge]

4 hours ago, PsychedelicSnake said:

Her armor being buffed up a bit, since she's super squishy. I use her quite well and her abilities are useful for negating damage, but she can get one-shot very easily in a lot of situations if you slip up for even a second.

unless shield gates were a thing.......