No Valk invincibility but Wukong is a-okay?

[Eldnacpeek]

23 hours ago, DeMonkey said:

I don't think there's been a single Wukong change since he was released.

Oh, wait they fixed the bug where you could roll whilst in CW, so you have to move at a snail pace.

Hopefully he gets reworked one day, I like Primal Fury, I like the idea of CW and I like poking enemies into space. Defy is bleh. But it will likely stay that way for another year at least. 

Look at Chroma for instance, well over a year and his firs ability is still irrelevant.

 

I don't recall any changes done to either of the ChangYou frames ever since the one time fix of rolling in Cloud Walker. Nezha aside (because he's completely unlike Wukong and actually plays like a finished frame), Wukong is just broken.

His abilities are clunky and do nothing, not to mention they have no synergy. The animations of Primal Fury skip frames and are very poorly animated, and there seems to be a vast amount of missing/unnoticeable sound effects. Let's also add on the fact range (even Primed Reach) on it does relatively nothing. The length of the staff may be incredibly long visually, but the true length is almost as worse Fang Prime's. Cloud Walker is just useless at its snail's pace movement and failure to actually open enemies to finishers (unless taking the very slim chance of that happening into account). Defy makes him immortal, but considering he can't do anything with easy immortality, it just becomes a boring crutch for his lack of EHP and speed. Iron Jab's length is not affected by power range; only the AoE knockdown is, and the cast time is slow and interrupts movement.

In addition to this, the last time I tested Primal Rage, it was non functional. I'm not joking, I played for 2 hours trying to get something out of the augment and I finally came down to a conclusion; it doesn't work at all. According to wiki, Primal Fury's default critical chance is 25%, so at maximum capacity of Primal Rage (100%), it should be at 50% critical chance. It is absolutely not 50%. I would be proccing Berserker significantly more often if so, while obviously noticing an excessive amount of crits upon every strike. I want to know why an unmodded Fragor Prime is proccing Berserker in a much shorter timespan than the apparent 50% critical chance of a fully maximized Primal Rage. I don't see why I couldn't find anyone else who noticed its lack of effect outside of a few clan members. Maybe it's been fixed since its launch (aka the last time I actually used it), but if not, it's a waste of a mod slot and credits/standing.

Overall, he's the most unpolished and unfinished frame in game.

I haven't made a post of this length in a while, so this was just exhausting. I think I'll take my leave now because I seem to be going partially off topic. 

Edited July 28, 2016 by LazerSkink

[Dreddeth]

Defy is a 1-up with diminishing returns built in that require active management to compensate for.

Unless I missed something, Valkyr is still very much completely invincible while Hysteria is active, regardless of whether that duration is the entire mission or two minutes. You don't even need it to be active that long, since it heals you back to full in a couple swings so you can go back to using your Shadow-Debt-modded Nikana Prime. All the ramping energy cost really did was deal a harsher punishment for players who used Hysteria 24/7 as a crutch rather than activating it when they actually needed it.

[DeMonkey]

Just now, LazerSkink said:

~snip~

I just squeaky hammer the shizzle out of everything, the other 2 combos are both lacking yes. But the squeaky hammer makes up for any shortcomings imo.

CW is useless yes, but I think it could actually be a decent ability given some a lot of changes. 

Iron Jab should totally be 50m long and hit multiple enemies in a line. 

Haven't had an issue with Primal Rage myself, sure you weren't just hitting with the slam effect radial effect? That can't crit unfortunately.

Yes he could certainly do with a rework, I've even made a rework thread. His #1 is one of the worst #1's in the game, his #3 is of course not even worth using and his #4 is a subpar ultimate weapon which has nothing making it worthy of being an ultimate weapon. Orthos Prime for example can outdamage (given enough time) and outrange it.

I'm 100% with you that he needs a rework pronto, but it's probably not going to happen, there's Limbo and Nekros and Oberon and Zehpyr who all came sooner that are more likely to get changes.

[starsrift]

I stopped playing Valkyr a long time ago because it was too boring to press 4 once and then play the mission on godmode. 

She's still too strong and boring to play, but at least she's a little more in line with other frames.

Wu Kong is at least interesting with his other skills besides Defy, though comparing Defy and Hysteria is a little weird. You could sail through a Sortie third level Eximus spawn modifier with Hysteria, with no problem. Just try doing that with Wu Kong's Defy, I dare you.

Edited July 27, 2016 by starsrift

[SenorClipClop]

3 hours ago, Damageplay said:

If you guys didn't want to make Valkyr the "invincible Warframe", then why does Wukong LITERALLY HAVE THE ABILITY TO NOT DIE?

Wukong was created by Warframe China and not by the DE creative team who designed all the other Warframes (excepting Nezha, the other Chinese-made frame). "You guys" are not the same guys.

But really, they kind of did want an invincible frame, which is why Valk can become invincible. Thing is, they wanted a frame that was only invincible sometimes, and many players were building for Valkyr to be invincible all the time, hence the changes to Hysteria.

Wukong's ability to escape death, as other Tenno have mentioned, is not the same as Valkyr's ability to avoid damage. Wukong will still take damage and suffer all the hazards of a normal frame. Defy is just a built-in Quick Thinking mod.

As far as reasons to use Valkyr, how about just because you like Valkyr? Her kit, her passive, her art, Hek even her channeling effects, whatever the reason, Warframe lets you do whatever you want. Maybe someone who plays Valkyr wants the intensive melee and moments of untouchability that both she and Wukong offer, but they also want a team buff, or crowd control or a quick mobility move, none of which Wu really has. When you think about it, the two frames really only have a survival move, combo-ing and a melee focus in common.

[(PSN)abb12355]

Is this a Nerf wukong thread? 

At least Val can Contribute to the team with the Warcry buff which both buffs armor and Melee attack rates.

Wukong is selfish asf. Has no team contribution what so ever. Let him be invincible. (I'm probably one of the only ones that like wukong). People don't even play him that much. People are literally saying he sucks in the forums because he has nothing other then a Bootleg Exalted Blade/Hysteria and Psuedo invincibility which requires a which can be unreliable when you are getting murdered every life in 1 shot. He doesn't need a nerf. 

[traybong111]

4 hours ago, Damageplay said:

If you guys didn't want to make Valkyr the "invincible Warframe", then why does Wukong LITERALLY HAVE THE ABILITY TO NOT DIE? It seems like Wukong's Defy and Primal Fury on at the same time will take less energy than Valkyr's 4 alone. There is no reason to user her now as you can just use Naramon with EB Excal or Wukong. 

I always found it weird that the frame with the highest base armor among all frames has toggleable invincibility though. 

If much squishier frames like Banshee or Nova had some triggered/timed invincibility to lethal damage like Defy I'd understand, but why would you give literally mission-long invincibility to a frame that already has far better tanking stats than most frames? 

[Obviousclone]

28 minutes ago, traybong111 said:

I always found it weird that the frame with the highest base armor among all frames has toggleable invincibility though. 

If much squishier frames like Banshee or Nova had some triggered/timed invincibility to lethal damage like Defy I'd understand, but why would you give literally mission-long invincibility to a frame that already has far better tanking stats than most frames? 

it's to compensate for giving her very small shields

 

she has small shields because her 3 consumes shields to do damage

her 3 consumes shields to do damage i'm guessing because it creates the berserker theme of dealing damage at the cost of survivability.

 

bear in mind that inaros also has an invuln move- devouring a guy makes you invuln and regens health. So by your logic, inaros shouldn't have such a massive base health pool

[Eldnacpeek]

9 hours ago, SenorClipClop said:

Wukong was created by Warframe China and not by the DE creative team who designed all the other Warframes (excepting Nezha, the other Chinese-made frame). "You guys" are not the same guys.

 

This is not true. Warframe China, ChangYou, does not create or develop anything; they only publish the assets DE makes for them for the Chinese build of Warframe. Wukong and Nezha were not created by anyone except DE. DE is the only creative mind for everything Warframe, meaning "you guys" are in fact the same guys.

 

Edited July 27, 2016 by LazerSkink

[chainchompguy3]

Just to throw in my 2-cents on the original topic:

 

Valkyr's 4 was not changed because it was free godmode. It was not even changed because you could have it on for literally the whole mission, with ease.

It was changed because that made it boring.

There was no challenge. No skill. Not even any fun. You'd just be completely invulnerable, destroying the enemies with the same set of melee combos for the whole mission.

Sure, it'd be fun the first couple of times, when you still felt like "Oh, wow, I'm so clever for cheating the system and coming up with this great build", but eventually that fades, and you are just left with repetitive godmode,

 

Wukong's Defy is different. Different enough? That's a decision that might still need to have an established answer to, seeing as how this thread exists.

But the way I see it, Defy is not boring. Keeping an eye on your energy count, keeping track of how many times you've "Defied", making sure you still have a way out of this crowd of enemies you're wading through, and avoiding mag-procs and nullifiers, you are without a doubt doing something when you use defy. You are not just sitting there: you have to manage it. If you don't, you're just going to die, in defiance of defy itself.

 

TL;DR: Read the boldfaced.

[SenorClipClop]

1 hour ago, LazerSkink said:

 

This is not true. Warframe China, ChangYou, does not create or develop anything; they only publish the assets DE makes for them for the Chinese build of Warframe. Wukong and Nezha were not created by anyone except DE. DE is the only creative mind for everything Warframe, meaning "you guys" are in fact the same guys.

 

Spoiler

 

 

 

Oh, did not know. Never mind that point, then.

[(PSN)robotwars7]

everything has a weakness, Defying-Wukong included. energy leeches, nullifiers and disruptors can quickly erase his energy and disable Defy. you also have to recast it at some point in order to get the heal or otherwise you'll die, and recasting it makes you vulnerable as well. he also lacks team support.

hard to kill? yes. absolutely invincible and everything-proof? no.

[(PSN)Deception_Pharo]

11 hours ago, Damageplay said:

If you guys didn't want to make Valkyr the "invincible Warframe", then why does Wukong LITERALLY HAVE THE ABILITY TO NOT DIE? It seems like Wukong's Defy and Primal Fury on at the same time will take less energy than Valkyr's 4 alone. There is no reason to user her now as you can just use Naramon with EB Excal or Wukong. 

To be frank, defy can gain invincibility but you can still die. As for naramon with EB and PF, it's a terrible move, why remain invisible with energy based weapon and wreck mayhem.

[(PSN)Deception_Pharo]

3 minutes ago, (PS4)robotwars7 said:

everything has a weakness, Defying-Wukong included. energy leeches, nullifiers and disruptors can quickly erase his energy and disable Defy. you also have to recast it at some point in order to get the heal or otherwise you'll die, and recasting it makes you vulnerable as well. he also lacks team support.

hard to kill? yes. absolutely invincible and everything-proof? no.

Agreed.

[(PSN)Deception_Pharo]

Defy means to resist or deny something so in this case for Wukong death, but he can die.

[disco_inferno6]

Nerf him. He's too OP.

[(PSN)Deception_Pharo]

9 minutes ago, disco_inferno6 said:

Nerf him. He's too OP.

How is he OP? being semi-invincible doesn't make him OP.  

[PopGligor]

With steel fiber and armored agility, Valkyr can get up to 1530 armor. Wukong can get up to ~570 using the same mods. That is Valkyr having three times more armor than Wukong. Even without her hysteria, she's already "almost invulnerable". Hysteria is there to give you a damage burst and let you get your health back. With good power efficiency and duration, you can keep hysteria up for quite a long time. When you're in groups, more enemies spawn, meaning more energy drops, meaning hysteria's even easier to maintain. 

We should also mention hysteria's insane damage output. I don't see many people do it, but that skill's slide attack hits like 5 or 6 times and takes out almost anything. I've oneshotted the Hyena Pack (killing both of them at once) with just one slide attack in hysteria.

All that the nerf did is force you out of hysteria on occasion, even if it is just to reset the energy drain. It's still one of the most overwpowered and broken ultimates in the game, at least in my opinion. And valkyr is my favorite frame, so don't nerf her plz xD

[disco_inferno6]

1 hour ago, (PS4)Deception_Pharo said:

How is he OP? being semi-invincible doesn't make him OP.  

Nerf you too. You are too OP.

[(PSN)Deception_Pharo]

1 hour ago, disco_inferno6 said:

Nerf you too. You are too OP.

So is the world. 

[Vyra]

Un-nerf Valkyr ffs

[(PSN)EVILFLUFFMONSTER]

I loved using Valkyr in the old days. Then I got put off when people turned her into a cheese frame. I was hoping personally that she couldnt stay in Hysteria all the time after the rework, not to ruin anyones fun, but because I believe it should be a proper berserk mode, not her permanent normal indefinite form through every mission. They should have kept its original duration version instead of making it toggleable imho, but instead capped its duration at something like 20 secs but made it so that kills made during Hysteria add to its duration by increasing her bloodlust, allowing it to be used as long as she kills enemies fast enough to keep the timer going.

Not that I think they will ever change her again.

Wukong needs his other powers to be useful - decent stun duration and faster cast animations on cloud walker could make it as great as radial blind. I had hoped the Iron Vault augment could be good - tried it and the extra damage only seems to affect direct hits, it needs the increased 500% damage in a radial AOE. I would happily use Primal fury if it didnt make me look like an angry man repeatedy banging a drainpipe on the ground. I love staff weapons, the idea of an exalted power staff thingy made me excited till I tried it. Its only bearable if I use that one combo that doesnt look awful. For me, it doesnt matter how great you make the ability if I derive no pleasure from using it.

As for defy, having to micromanage it all the time makes it balanced, you drain energy for keeping it up, and you are encouraged to recast it or your health returns are negligible. It would be more of a problem on a more powerful frame - Wukong doesnt have the damage resistance to prevent damage, just the ability to come back afterwards, at some point he will just keep dying and coming back - and it prevents him from keeping his melee combo up on his 4th limiting its effectiveness too. Its not quite as powerful as Valks Hysteria which allows you to face-tank without dying which actually allows you to use her melee centered powers, wheras Wukong just dies and comes back, using his exalted weapon incurs an additional energy drain too, while Valkyrs is just one power.

[Vyra]

17 minutes ago, (PS4)EVILFLUFFMONSTER said:

Not that I think they will ever change her again.

they will have to....

or else valkyr prime will be the worst prime release since warframe history..lol
nearly nobody would want to buy a broken valkyr prime access :D

[(PSN)Deception_Pharo]

1 minute ago, Vyra said:

they will have to....

or else valkyr prime will be the worst prime release since warframe history..lol
nearly nobody would want to buy a broken valkyr prime access :D

There is a lot of time for prime version.

[Kinetos]

11 minutes ago, (PS4)EVILFLUFFMONSTER said:

I loved using Valkyr in the old days. Then I got put off when people turned her into a cheese frame. I was hoping personally that she couldnt stay in Hysteria all the time after the rework, not to ruin anyones fun, but because I believe it should be a proper berserk mode, not her permanent normal indefinite form through every mission. They should have kept its original duration version instead of making it toggleable imho, but instead capped its duration at something like 20 secs but made it so that kills made during Hysteria add to its duration by increasing her bloodlust, allowing it to be used as long as she kills enemies fast enough to keep the timer going.

Same as me. I used her a lot before Hysteria was a drain ability, and I enjoyed using all 4 abilities. Used her a little bit after that change, and then not at all for like 8 months when I tried taking her for a spin to test out the latest Hysteria changes, but I didn't even come to a circumstance requiring its usage, so back on the shelf until her other abilities are buffed, synergized, and made more team friendly. 

However I am really looking forward to the Prime. I just hope she gets a full rework so she can retake her place as one of my favorite frames. 

2 minutes ago, Vyra said:

they will have to....

or else valkyr prime will be the worst prime release since warframe history..lol
nearly nobody would want to buy a broken valkyr prime access :D

I'll probably buy her regardless. Whether she has been reworked by then will just determine whether she gets Forma and her own loadout slot.