Specters of the Rail: U2.1 - Nekros Changes

[Kaotyke]

Found a Bug: After a while in mission, whenever I tried to teleport my shadows to me when I was far, they never came.

Even those in the 10m - 40m range

Edited August 10, 2016 by Venom-Snake

[(PSN)TwilightGrim]

i dont see my build changing that much (o forma) all i need to do is add 1 forma when NP comes out, after all i run a high efficiency balance build

[Zerathos_Dagon]

Just now, ----Fenrir---- said:

Redeemer + Life Strike. One charged shot = full HP and you do not even need to get close to the enemy since it's basically a shotgun.

Sooo... Whereas before you could play Nekros just fine on his own with a well thought-out build, now you need a specific weapon, mod and playstyle on the side just to make him work beyond ok-ish?

Hm. I'm sorry, but it still sounds like a nerf to me.

[Daconius]

Nekros is definitely much worse as a result of these changes.

Desecrate is slower, costs a lot more, and rewards a lot less.  Making it a toggle is not so much better that it needed to neuter the ability.   Hydroid and Ivara have 100% extra loot chances AND a bunch of useful abilities... other frames have powers and augments that give better than 54% chances of spawning health orbs.   The only thing that Nekros was best at is now something Nekros is sub-par at.

The worst part is how unresponsive the ability feels.  The delay on desecrating corpses means Nekros needs to progress quite a bit more slowly through missions in order to desecrate all the bodies... at greater expense...for less stuff.  It also seems as though failed rolls on the loot table still destroy the bodies, which is a huge nerf too.  Previously you could cast desecrate several times to get multiple chances on bodies.

If the cost is going to be as high as it is, the desecration should be INSTANT and the chance at additional loot should be higher, not lower, than before.   The health orbs need to be guaranteed or near-guaranteed... it's part of Nekros's basic build and needs to continue to be if each body is potentially costing him 10 health.

Shadows of the Dead changes are not well thought out.  The health decay is a worse form of duration, as they not only have a finite lifespan, but it makes them weaker and easier to kill over time.   Having them heal with a re-cast seems like exactly what the dev team claimed making desecrate a toggle was meant to combat:  forcing Nekros to continually cast and re-cast a power rather than focusing on actually playing the game.   

SotD shadows are really nothing more than a distraction for enemies.  They're dumb, and they don't dish out significant damage or anything.  If you want to make them more useful, focus on what people use them for:  defense and distraction.   Give them back their duration, make them invulnerable to damage, and make them taunt nearby enemies.   You can let them lose life normally if the player is using the shield augment, but not take damage from other sources.

Then you'd have a worthwhile support frame..

[SkyIRaine]

https://forums.warframe.com/topic/392548-nekros-changes-coming-for-1512/

According to this post;

Damage Multiplier = 2.5

Health Multiplier = 2

Last changed Jan 2015

According to the post, Shadows was reduced to 7, but compensated to be stronger, However, if you view the Abilities (UI) without Mods those values is the same?

So, correct me if I'm wrong, but Does the stronger shadows only imply Stronger Unit Selection? This is what I'm feeling right now.

 

[Twistedsparkle]

loving the new boneface tweaks!
but he is still oh so squishyy!

absolutely needs moar survivability

[NightmareT12]

1 minute ago, SkyIRaine said:

https://forums.warframe.com/topic/392548-nekros-changes-coming-for-1512/

According to this post;

Damage Multiplier = 2.5

Health Multiplier = 2

Last changed Jan 2015

According to the post, Shadows was reduced to 7, but compensated to be stronger, However, if you view the Abilities (UI) without Mods those values is the same?

So, correct me if I'm wrong, but Does the stronger shadows only imply Stronger Unit Selection? This is what I'm feeling right now.

 

It seems. I also overviewed it when writing my post, but I feel we should have a better escalation of Power Strength and the multipliers. Or better multipliers directly.

Any ways, the thing is to compensate a tad, I agree.

[MorpheusMemori]

So I was a very passive Nekros player because I actually disliked being shoehorned in the desecrate build (and could only find information on desecrate builds over Shadows or Terrify. But the Terrify build is recent so I can excuse that). Sort of felt as though I'd just be sitting in the middle of a survival or defense and constantly press 3. Went for Ivara for loot farming since she was a lot more interactive.

I like the quality of life changes, I actually feel as though I could do a different build and have desecrate be focused on energy over health with proper modding.
Though I'm a bit confused on the scalings of Shadows of the Dead. Well one, I don't know what goes into the algorithm when it picks specters. In an infested survival I ran, sometimes I was stuck with an assortment of ancients. The next, I'd have a well rounded mix. I much preferred a well rounded mix over all one singular type of enemy, though to each their own.
Though, maybe it's because I don't understand how to mod for them, it seemed that at a certain point, all the specters would just die. I could be recasting 4 to help regain the health, and I may as well have left them die and not cast Shadows again because of the health drain (which surprised me, never seen it mentioned). Reading here, it seems that there is a health drain that is aided with power strength (?, either that or duration, I'm having difficulties reading with how people are saying it. Shows how well I know the technical lingo). I would like to ask, why that was included? I feel it actively discourages people from building Shadows. Why would they? They become useless after a certain level, even if you manage to have 200% power strength (assuming this works like other 'diminishing returns'/'feast or famine' builds, and considering the specters still work similarly to the old ability, about level 65 (ish) is where I see Shadows of the Damned having issues remaining up if you had the high power strength build if I'm calculating it right according to what I know and what people are saying. I think my build ran at 145 power strength and I ran into issues at level 30).

I understand the specter limit at 7. It's also bugged. A couple times I've gotten 8~10 specters, no reasons given. But I also feel as though the ability is... lackluster? With that limit, I sort of feel as though I'm limited on the benefits that you gotten from the old ability. Maybe it's because I hadn't had the chance to mod for the newer Shadows properly, but I don't think I'll be using a Shadows build anytime soon. From what I have seen, I am better off pursuing a Terrify build if I don't want a desecrate one. I enjoy going into survivals for a long period of time, and I don't think I would be able to stay the hour+ time I like staying with a Shadow's build.

I don't know. I like the changes, I don't like the current ratios. I do wish I had more specters, but I know it'll probably remain at 7 because I watched the dev stream (or prime time, I forget which) associated with it and I understand the reasoning for it (maybe it'll go up 8~9, maybe. I can hope).

I know a lot of work went into this and while this isn't what I expected, I am glad there were changes to desecrate. Feels a lot better now and I do feel like playing more of Nekros.

[Akhenapep]

Only thing that really bothers me, is how my Shadows are still not able to keep up with me at all. If I hastely change positions in a mission (Mobile Defense, Survival and Excavation missions are very good examples) my summoned shadows are left behind and are of no use to me or my team for support. Yet I can't spawn them when arriving at a new location because the old ones are still alive and well, but completely useless at that point. Teleporting them every couple meters of the way just seems rather exessive energywise. 

I propose that, for every shadows that is not in the maximum teleporting range, a new one is summoned by the players side. Another sollution would be to just make the teleport mapwide.

[Kastorius]

13 minutes ago, Daconius said:

Nekros is definitely much worse as a result of these changes.

Desecrate is slower, costs a lot more, and rewards a lot less.  Making it a toggle is not so much better that it needed to neuter the ability.   Hydroid and Ivara have 100% extra loot chances AND a bunch of useful abilities... other frames have powers and augments that give better than 54% chances of spawning health orbs.   The only thing that Nekros was best at is now something Nekros is sub-par at.

The worst part is how unresponsive the ability feels.  The delay on desecrating corpses means Nekros needs to progress quite a bit more slowly through missions in order to desecrate all the bodies... at greater expense...for less stuff.  It also seems as though failed rolls on the loot table still destroy the bodies, which is a huge nerf too.  Previously you could cast desecrate several times to get multiple chances on bodies.

Yes, basically this has been a huge nerf, but people have yet to realize it. They'll realize it soon enough, though. Everyone in my Moon Clan who's tested it so far has had a negative reaction.

I will say that with the assistance of Zenurik and/or a Trinity, Shield of Shadows, and Health Conversion, as well as 155-183% Duration, 145-160% Range, 130-145% Strength, and 130% Efficiency, Nekros can now run Shield of Shadows quite well while simply leaving Desecrate toggled on, using Terrify in emergencies, which is actually quite a satisfying and effective way to play....

Except for one problem: Refreshed shadows will only teleport to your position if they're within 40-50 meters. This feels extremely awkward, slow, and broken. Otherwise, they'll remain uselessly where they are, not defending you and not contributing to Shield of Shadows. If the range is made infinite or very high, as it very well should be, then this could perhaps qualify as a worthwhile rework.

Edited August 10, 2016 by Kastorius

[SpookySnakes]

I have to say, I am very dissapointed. Nekros is just not fun to play right now imo.

Desecrate is a bit unreliable. The reduced droprate is very noticable and half the time, I can't even tell if the skill is working or not!

Also SotD is just plain awful right now. The ghosts aren't stronger than they were before thanks to the health drain and unit limit, and the buggy AI, which wasn't a big issue with an army, makes the skill kinda useless.

Thanks to the nerfs, he doesn't do anything better than any other frame now. Ivara is better at nabbing extra loot, Nyx is better at CC, and basically any frame is better at defending a point.

I am very disappointed, I was looking forward to buying the prime access but I might as well save my money now. He's not the necromancer I loved.

[Kastorius]

2 minutes ago, SpookySnakes said:

I have to say, I am very dissapointed. Nekros is just not fun to play right now imo.

Desecrate is a bit unreliable. The reduced droprate is very noticable and half the time, I can't even tell if the skill is working or not!

Also SotD is just plain awful right now. The ghosts aren't stronger than they were before thanks to the health drain and unit limit, and the buggy AI, which wasn't a big issue with an army, makes the skill kinda useless.

Thanks to the nerfs, he doesn't do anything better than any other frame now. Ivara is better at nabbing extra loot, Nyx is better at CC, and basically any frame is better at defending a point.

I am very disappointed, I was looking forward to buying the prime access but I might as well save my money now. He's not the necromancer I loved.

Yeah, I'm somewhat surprised they released a rework in this state just before Prime Access.

Hopefully they'll tweak SotD and Desecrate sometime this week for the sake of Nekros enthusiasts and their own pocketbook.

[Voidforged]

Just now, Kastorius said:

I will say that with the assistance of Zenurik and/or a Trinity, Shield of Shadows, and Health Conversion, as well as 155-183% Duration, 145-160% Range, 130-145% Strength, and 130% Efficiency, Nekros can now run Shield of Shadows quite well while simply leaving Desecrate toggled on, using Terrify in emergencies, which is actually quite a satisfying and effective way to play....

Having Desecrate toggled on disables Zenurik and Energy Siphon.

EDIT: At least it did..? I'm running again and it seems to be working now. Not sure if I messed something up or the hotfix changed it. 

Edited August 10, 2016 by Voidforged

[Death_Master_]

Tested nekros change - we have some good things and a big bad thing.

Good tings - we can run freely, cast infinitely-living shadows and have fun with them.

Bad thing is that .... Loot chance is now worst of all lootframes making nekros fun but not much useful(54% chance and part of it eaten by spheres).

[brytur]

Skimming through this thread, and it seems that players don't like the AI of Shadows of the Dead. So I ask: why not give them the same "bodyguard" AI that Tenno specters (ones you get from rescue missions) and Clem clones have? The reason I like Tenno specters and Clem clones so much is how they stick to you like glue.

And the constant health drain should be removed, too.

I haven't used Nekros in well over a year, so I'm gonna start using (and forma'ing) him again, so I'll be watching this thread for new builds.

[Daconius]

I will say that with the assistance of Zenurik and/or a Trinity, Shield of Shadows, and Health Conversion, as well as 155-183% Duration, 145-160% Range, 130-145% Strength, and 130% Efficiency, Nekros can now run Shield of Shadows quite well while simply leaving Desecrate toggled on, which is actually quite a pleasant way to play....

If Zenurik functioned while Desecrate was toggled on then I'd agree... but it'd still be trash, given how much junk you need to get him to work well even in the situation you're stating.   Nekros becomes a mediocre frame that can only BE mediocre if you happen to be a long-time player with plenty of mods and focus ahead of time.

Except for one problem: Refreshed shadows will only teleport to your position if they're within 40-50 meters. Otherwise, they'll remain uselessly where they are, not defending you and not contributing to Shield of Shadows. If the range is made infinite or very high, as it very well should be, then this could perhaps qualify as a worthwhile rework.

They did with 2.2... but this is his ultimate, and it costs 100 energy base..  it shouldn't be something you need to keep re-casting frequently to make worthwhile.

[Matt89Connor]

WHY efficency not reduce the decay? Is too high  the % of decay :( the undead need time to kill enemy :( with this decay they died after 30 seconds:(

[Voidforged]

Just now, Daconius said:

If Zenurik functioned while Desecrate was toggled on then I'd agree... but it'd still be trash, given how much junk you need to get him to work well even in the situation you're stating.   Nekros becomes a mediocre frame that can only BE mediocre if you happen to be a long-time player with plenty of mods and focus ahead of time.

Zenurik seems to be working with Desecrate toggled on since the hotfix.

[Achromatic.]

1 minute ago, Voidforged said:

Zenurik seems to be working with Desecrate toggled on since the hotfix.

It's worked like that since it came out. 

[TheEternalJester]

Since we're already having to deal with only 7 Shadows, why not revert that 'no Eximus' rule?

[Voidforged]

Just now, Biter. said:

It's worked like that since it came out. 

Wasn't for me, not sure why.

He feels so power hungry now. Even with Zenruik and ES I find myself running out of energy constantly.

[Kastorius]

Testing so far seems to indicate that when a body is Desecrated but the roll fails, the body is consumed.

This alone is an enormous nerf compared to old Desecrate, because bodies weren't consumed if they failed the Desecrate roll. They remained, and Desecrate had a second, third, etc. chance to convert the body to drops and health orbs.

Unless I'm mistaken about this new feature, it means a drastic reduction in overall loot and health orb drops compared to the old 3 spam.

[Darthmufin]

More like the king of the dead just got a whole lot more wimpy and less powerful. thanks for nerfing nekros, im sure millions of people complained about "performance" issues even though ive never seen a single person complain about that. 

[Apollose]

I am going to withhold any remark in hopes that the Desecrate loot rolling (the only reason to bring a Nekros) will show up on the hotfix thread.

Edited August 10, 2016 by Apollose

[SinergyX]

The AI of the infested pets is absolutely garbage. Was doing infested survival, they just stand there, once in a blue moon attack or just wonder off to another room/section.