Specters of the Rail: U2.1 - Nekros Changes

[Dovahheim]

1 hour ago, (XB1)Dr Desflurane said:

Maybe check out some YouTube videos or put some part time in to figure it out because she is a top tier damage frame.  You are doing it wrong.

I already have and it turns out that she went from a one trick pony to a one trick pony

[PsychoticMarik]

Health decay needs to go.

Having it is literally the definition of anti-fun. Not only did you cut my shadow amount by half(I personally ran with 14)for "performance issues" which no one is buying, but you went ahead and flat out lied to us about them not having a duration. Yes, leaving out that important little detail in your dev stream counts as a lie.

No duration means no duration DE. It doesn't mean health decay...because that's duration under a different name.

Fix this. Fix this specific thing because it affects the fantasy of being a Necromancer the most, and we can talk about the other issues afterward.

I'm so blown away by this blunder that I cant help but laugh. Just when I thought you were winning me over again you go and prove, yet again just how badly you can mess up such simple things.

We only have 7 shadows now DE(seriously you couldnt make it 10?)there is no good reason they cant last until they are killed by outside sources.

Remove the health decay. Remove the duration like you advertised.

 

[adiamorph]

I was looking forward to the SotD revision discussed on the devstream. :( I don't even mind that there are only 7 shadows, because it sounded much nicer to only have to maintain your shadows when you decide it's strategically a good idea. The lifespan of the shadows is still tied to duration, only now they also become weaker over time. Keeping your shadows up only makes you spend energy more frequently now, since the damage that they take technically shortens their timer. It's the same energy cost as ult regardless of how much you're healing, and now you have to cast it more frequently. So that's a little disappointing

I've had fun with Desecrate so far though (or, not having to worry about spamming it), so I have no complaints about that. Lol

[Cmdr-A]

So after playing an hour or two with the new update. I've come to the conclusion that SoTD is worse off than it was before.

Duration for the ability is you can't once again build around SoTD AND desecrate at the same time. Strength makes the shadows stronger, but range makes them far weaker, using transient fortitude makes their health drain faster, duration makes them drain less. All in all it'd be really improbable to make a decent build focusing around desecrating AND keeping them alive as long as possible.

Heres why. So with a max transient fortitude your shadows have a drain of 4% per second, thats what, 25 seconds of life time, not being shot at. With being shot at they will last well under 20 - 15 seconds if even that, making them last less in time than when they actually had a full power duration to begin with. Using a max P Continuity with a max Transient Fortitude brings it down to somewhere in the 2% range, which, is around 50 seconds? Maybe less since its probably 2.something. Again under circumstances enemies will be shooting at them heavily constantly, they'll die in under half a minute if not far less.

Considering to even heal them one or two of them will have already died, locking you into the longer cast animation to heal them. Micromanaging and having to constantly press 4 just to keep them alive is more tedious and time consuming in the long run than having them there in the first place. Due to how long  the cast animation is even if so help you one guy dies before you cast to heal them. So pretty much SoTD has become one of the most tedious of abilities for nekros now.

Edited August 11, 2016 by Cmdr-A

[WrathAscending]

Tried it for a bit, generally happy with the ideas behind the changes.

There's only two areas I wasn't entirely satisfied with the changes on.

First and foremost, Desecrate gets rid of the body completely so you only get one chance at a loot re-roll. As others have said, previously you'd keep hitting 3 until you saw something. I think if it's going to get rid of the body a much higher loot acquisition level is needed; I understand the reluctance to keep dropping Health orbs but the table could be expanded with Credit and Resource drops taking the remainder of the places if need be. The lack of additional mods as well probably means Pilfering Hydroid will see an upsurge in use for looting runs and I'm not sure if that's intentional. On the other hand it was great to be able to move around and fight rather than sit around hitting 3 while my eyes glazed over so it's definitely a step in the right direction overall.

Second was the Shadows. As others have said the lack of support units like Shield Ospreys/Orokin Drones does hurt a bit. Perhaps those could be placed in their own category with a limit of 1-2 out of the 7 in the casting queue. I agree with the calls for recasting the ability to summon all the Shadows to you no matter where you are, they can get very strung out.

Edited August 11, 2016 by WrathAscending

[Wolfnrun]

34 minutes ago, Genjinaro said:

Ok yeah I'm pissed. The health drain on SotD needs to go. No question about it.

Quoteing for truth! 

[Koed]

38 minutes ago, R34LM said:

Liked your assessment but...ahem...Creeping Terrify. Granted, it can be recast, but it saves g's if they stay slow longer.

Mate, Terrify has a base duration of 25 sec - more than enough time to kill anything. Duration is not needed.

[WrathAscending]

The upshot is that it only uses 10 Energy per corpse, so if there are 7 corpses or less around you when it goes off the investment is lower than it used to be. However, if there are 8 or more around the cost is up.

Personally I just run it with Despoil and Fleeting Expertise. 4 Health per corpse Desecrated, then making up the difference with Rejuvenation and Health orbs. Don't even need (Primed) Flow any more.

[Nazzami]

Out of curiosity has anyone tried Rejuvenation Aura with the changes?

Does this work while Desecrate is active or even effect shadows?

[Astraea.]

Not satisfied at all with the changes. Most are sensible and improved but....it killed one of the only reasons I still play, which is to have fun with my mini shadow army. Tried it out in-game and it just generally feels like Shadows of the Dead summons are far weaker. 

[Cmdr-A]

6 minutes ago, Nazzami said:

Out of curiosity has anyone tried Rejuvenation Aura with the changes?

Does this work while Desecrate is active or even effect shadows?

I've tried it, rejuvenation stays active while desecrate is being channeled so its a viable aura use on nekros.

Though with the shadows, considering they lose health I doubt it takes them into account

Edited August 11, 2016 by Cmdr-A

[----_Hayden_Tenno_----]

2 hours ago, lyravega said:

Instead of having 90% of additional loot, now we have 54% chance. Clear nerf over here.

its always been 54% iirc

[Nazzami]

1 minute ago, ..-Hayden-Tenno-.. said:

its always been 54% iirc

54% seems like a odd % tho couldn't just round that up to 55%

 

5 minutes ago, Cmdr-A said:

I've tried it, rejuvenation stays active while desecrate is being channeled so its a viable aura use on nekros.

So it can help to maintain it slightly which is good could combine with equilibrium for abit more  my thinking now is maybe it is better to keep range on nekros at the default 100% and use desecrate more similarly to how you would embers WoF

[DoomzDayDan]

Hello,

I wasn't planning to comment about the changes to Nekros, however after reading every single post that has preceded this one, I felt obligated.  

Obligated to add one more voice in distaste for this "rework" of our beloved Nekros.

Virtually every post on here is identical for a good reason.  The changes to Nekros are an undeniable nerf to Desecrate,  Shadows of The Dead and their respective Augments.

The only improvement introduced in this current build is the toggle for Desecrate.

 

Literally every other change was implemented with a small side of, "oh that could be really cool, they're gonna love this!" and a HUGE helping of "but we don't want them too overpowered though right?....."

 

Please read/hear our words, and know that they are not born out of hate, but out of love.  Love for Nekros, love for Warframe.  

 

Please rework the "rework"!

[----_Hayden_Tenno_----]

2 minutes ago, Nazzami said:

 

10 minutes ago, Cmdr-A said:

I've tried it, rejuvenation stays active while desecrate is being channeled so its a viable aura use on nekros.

So it can help to maintain it slightly which is good could combine with equilibrium for abit more  my thinking now is maybe it is better to keep range on nekros at the default 100% and use desecrate more similarly to how you would embers WoF

problem is, desecrate needs a few seconds till it kicks in... u cant just jump around and instantly get dat extra loot

[Wolfnrun]

11 hours ago, Koed said:

Sigh, I gotta say - when I was told duration would disappear I felt so hopeful for Nekros - kinda like the time I was told Mag's Polarize would strip of enemy armor. And now I feel the same as when I found out Polarize got nerfed to a set value and not a %. Cmon DE....

Not sure if much will be done, given past history 

 

10 hours ago, DoomzDayDan said:

 

Please rework the "rework"!

That can be said to any frame the recived a rework, or "rework" (looking at volt)   but yes, we do 

Edited August 11, 2016 by Wolfnrun

[TunaMayo]

17 minutes ago, WrathAscending said:

The upshot is that it only uses 10 Energy per corpse, so if there are 7 corpses or less around you when it goes off the investment is lower than it used to be. However, if there are 8 or more around the cost is up.

Personally I just run it with Despoil and Fleeting Expertise. 4 Health per corpse Desecrated, then making up the difference with Rejuvenation and Health orbs. Don't even need (Primed) Flow any more.

The build I was trying was:

Vitality, Primed Continuity, Shield of Shadows, Blind Rage, Constitution, Streamline, Fleeting, Primed Flow.

Is running Despoil in place of Primed Flow probably better for energy maintenance?

[kennelia]

What can I say that hasn't already been said? The only thing I have to add is that I didn't even care about this rework and yet I was still disappointed.

[Xebov]

I realy enjoy the rework and its fun to play as Nekros.

 

22 minutes ago, Nazzami said:

Out of curiosity has anyone tried Rejuvenation Aura with the changes?

Does this work while Desecrate is active or even effect shadows?

It will work. Keep in mind that Desecrate is not a drain ability. Its a toggle for an auto cast that gets only casted if certain criterias are met. This means that even Energy Siphon will work.

 

Rejuvenation however is useless for your shadows. For a simple reason, AI has alot of HP and it regenerates a fixed amount. You basically regenerating 3HP/s on AI that has x times your HP. With Equilibrium i found Rejuvenation a bad choice as it can prevent you from picking up the Health Orbs.

[-AoN-CanoLathra-]

14 minutes ago, ..-Hayden-Tenno-.. said:

its always been 54% iirc

Actually, no, as the 46% of the time that no loot happened, the corpse wasn't consumed. This allowed for multiple casts, and typically resulted in ~90% loot chance, with 10% of the ragdolls dissipating before they were desecrated. Now, every corpse is consumed, regardless of whether or not something drops. This means a ~35% nerf to desecrate's loot chances.

[notlamprey]

2 minutes ago, Cano_Lathra said:

Actually, no, as the 46% of the time that no loot happened, the corpse wasn't consumed. This allowed for multiple casts, and typically resulted in ~90% loot chance, with 10% of the ragdolls dissipating before they were desecrated. Now, every corpse is consumed, regardless of whether or not something drops. This means a ~35% nerf to desecrate's loot chances.

It might even be worse than that, depending on how health orbs behave as members of the possible loot pool. If a desecrated corpse can no longer drop a health orb and something else, then we have a very real problem on our hands.

[WrathAscending]

1 minute ago, TunaMayo said:

Is running Despoil in place of Primed Flow probably better for energy maintenance?

Much. Max-level Nekros has 150 Energy and Fleeting Expertise means you don't need to worry about being able to recast Shadows of the Dead.

I was running this build when I experimented with Nekros today. It's a bit over-Forma'd but with Nekros Prime just around the corner I can't be bothered to fix it, I'll just build differently on that instead. Between the maxed-out Vigour and Vitality I was able to sustain Despoil quite handily through Rejuvenation and Health orbs that were feeding my armour rating and providing energy through Equilibrium to keep my Shadows topped off. Separating the resource pools that are getting tapped to pay for the two key abilities really helps.

Looking at your build I get the sense that it was very much a Shadows of the Dead specialist and weren't using Desecrate much. Shadows of the Dead/Shield of Shadows users seem to be the ones most unhappy about the rework whereas people who were using him as a loot bot (myself included) are seeing a sharp increase in playability. The changes they've made do work together so what makes a good Shadows build also makes a good Desecrate build now. Power strength seems to be the issue, Blind Rage isn't as great any more since it doesn't contribute to Shadow count but is going to hammer your energy pool while Desecrate is active. If you try Despoil and don't like it, trading Blind Rage for something else- even Intensify- will help Energy consumption a lot.

[S0V3REiGN]

I don't have to go into too much detail on this one as its pretty much copy and paste from everyone at this point. Shadow's health drain is 100% what I call "over balancing" of an ability that should have been straight forward. Nobody wants to be micro managing these minions. Shield of Shadows and Energy drain are a reaaaally bad mix making your shadows worse then the previous version which allowed you to have extra minions in case enemies chewed through the main 15 Shadows.

Edited August 11, 2016 by S0V3REiGN

[TunaMayo]

5 minutes ago, WrathAscending said:

Much. Max-level Nekros has 150 Energy and Fleeting Expertise means you don't need to worry about being able to recast Shadows of the Dead.

I was running this build when I experimented with Nekros today. It's a bit over-Forma'd but with Nekros Prime just around the corner I can't be bothered to fix it, I'll just build differently on that instead. Between the maxed-out Vigour and Vitality I was able to sustain Despoil quite handily through Rejuvenation and Health orbs that were feeding my armour rating and providing energy through Equilibrium to keep my Shadows topped off. Separating the resource pools that are getting tapped to pay for the two key abilities really helps.

Looking at your build I get the sense that it was very much a Shadows of the Dead specialist and weren't using Desecrate much. Shadows of the Dead/Shield of Shadows users seem to be the ones most unhappy about the rework whereas people who were using him as a loot bot (myself included) are seeing a sharp increase in playability. The changes they've made do work together so what makes a good Shadows build also makes a good Desecrate build now. Power strength seems to be the issue, Blind Rage isn't as great any more since it doesn't contribute to Shadow count but is going to hammer your energy pool while Desecrate is active. If you try Despoil and don't like it, trading Blind Rage for something else- even Intensify- will help Energy consumption a lot.

cool, thanks, I'll try out your build at some point.

I was aiming at an alroundy build but was trying to maintain a reasonable amount of damage resistance with shields of the shadows and decent armour shred on terrify and being able to have desecrate on pretty much all the time. Kinda the main reason I wanted more power strength was for the damage resistance.

The only gripe I have is the fact that we were told Shadows wouldn't be duration, and then they made it duration anyway, but worse. I just know it's going to be one of those abilities were everyone on release complains about the numbers at it doesn't get changed ever. Prime example being Chroma's Effigy energy cost, or Equinox's Pacify.

 

[Xekrin]

9 minutes ago, WrathAscending said:

Blind Rage isn't as great any more since it doesn't contribute to Shadow count

Power strength does affect the augment for shadows, not that I'd recommend blind rage for it though.  I honestly don't know what else strength works on now but it does work on the augment at least.