What If Warframe's Scaling Was Based Around Stealth Instead Of Combat

[BornWithTeeth]

Hypothetical situation here:

In default Warframe, a rank 10 Excalibur with a maxed out Braton and Skana is a fairly elite ninja-commando. A rank 30 Excalibur with a potato and a six Forma build, using Nikana Prime and Soma is an immortal god of war, a weapon of mass destruction in a humanoid skin. This is because Warframe's scaling is based entirely around damage numbers vs armour numbers.

 

What if, instead, the general combat level of a Tenno was relatively fixed? One Tenno can reliably face and kill a squad of dudes at a time, and in a pitched battle one Tenno can wear down entire platoons through attrition and tactical maneuver. As Tenno level up and gain access to better gear, their combat abilities do scale, but never along quite so ridiculously steep a slope as they do in the default game. 

 

Where the game scales instead is in stealth. Because one Tenno can reliably kill a squad at a time, but can be pinned down and killed by a battalion of the enemy, they would be forced to operate in a covert fashion. As you rank up your Warframe and gain access to better mods, your effective game capability is not measured by your DPS but is instead based on your mobility and stealth loadout. 'Frames like Ash, Loki, Ivara, Mirage, Equinox, Banshee, Zephyr, Nyx, etc, would be almost the default, 'frames with abilities for stealth, silent CC, mobility, and environmental manipulation, and the mods you use would be based around modifying Parkour stats, reducing weapon noise and flash, reducing visibility, increasing map awareness, etc.

 

Triggering an alarm would not be a minor annoyance, it would be the kind of thing which would massively threaten the mission, causing reinforcements to come running, reinforcements whom you seriously may not be able to fight and defeat.

 

In this, completely hypothetical alt-Warframe, when you compare a rank newbie and a master of the end game, the end game master is only dealing around twice, maaaaybe three times as much damage output as the newbie. The major difference is that the endgame master doesn't have to use that damage output so often, because they're as elusive as smoke in the wind.

 

 

Would peeps play this?

Edited August 12, 2016 by BornWithTeeth

[MuscleVictor]

Back when I first started playing Warframe, there was certainly an air of suspense, given how possible it was for you or your squad to wipe in the very early game, mainly because of how crummy our starting weapons were back then. Personally I'd welcome a more stealthy and tactical warframe experience, but I'm sure that the current player demographic plays more for the shootyblang space-muhreen combat than a stalking simulator.

[Genitive]

I like the idea. Maybe not so much for endless missions, but non-endless would work with that.

[Urlan]

If the game was balanced for stealth, I think it would be more for without warframes. An Operator sneaking around trying to calm their void energy surges while sneaking around to do silent ranges take downs like Snake. Get the Operator too anxious or damaged and their void energy starts to leak out causing damage overtime to nearby enemies but making stealth impossible until they can calm down again and re-enter sneaking mode. I doubt as muscled as the Tenno are that they could carry the bigger armaments the warframes do and wouldn't have the durability of living metal either. It would be a challenge to get through missions sneakily without melting everyone's eyes out.

[Marine027]

Main reason i actualy liked warframe when i started it, the possibility of staying steatlhy trying to not alert enemys was thrilling and fun, unlike now most is just run trough to the goal or just kill all on your way without the alert bothering you, whould like to have alerts have more conseqeunces, same for spy mission beeing actualy spy and not rewarding people that blast trough like mad, only consequence on those so far is more enemys in the next vault and mission turning in a exterminate which kinda it feels it rewards those even more. Extra loot for stealth kills or rare drops for them i guess whould change some peoples heads maybe, only problem with this i see people then only end up using Loki or Ivara only to abuse the system.

Edited August 12, 2016 by Marine027

[Hesyol]

17 minutes ago, BornWithTeeth said:

Frames like Ash, Loki, Ivara, Mirage, Equinox, Banshee, Zephyr, Nyx, etc, would be almost the default, 'frames with abilities for stealth, silent CC, mobility, and environmental manipulation, and the mods you use would be based around modifying Parkour stats, reducing weapon noise and flash, reducing visibility, increasing map awareness, etc.

This will be a sad outcome. We'll just switch from one meta to another. It would be nice to see more stealth missions and missions harder than current spy, with more alarms and big penalties for not being stealthy. But not whole game please, blocked doors and lasers that knock you off are already very irritating on fast paced missions. Most part of WF isn't about stealth and not too many people like it

[Rioma]

Warframe has vertical progression where you get better weapons and mods that increase your stats allowing you to kill stronger foes. What you described in your post is horizontal progression. Where there is high risk and high reward game play. You can kill enemies easily but they can also kill you easily. So tactical game play is rewarding but difficult to master. In horizontal progression games someone who has played the game for quite some time is not much stronger than a newer player as long as their skill level is relatively the same.

Think of something like Far Cry 3 & 4 you get new weapons and better talents to improve your character, but you aren't really stronger than when you first start out. You just gain more tools to deal with more situations. Killing 2, 4 enemies using stealth game play is quite easy, even an entire camp of 12 guys can be dealt with if done properly. But when you get into a firefight against 20 guys it can be quite challenging. 

So to answer your question: Yeah i would play it. But I don't need Warframe to play it because it already exists in games like Far Cry, MGS, Assassins Creed ect. I play WF because i want to mow down hordes of enemies with relative ease. Basically if you wanted to play WF like that just play Ivara with no quick thinking, redirection or vitality only using her 1 and 2.

[Harloq]

The alarms have been triggered Tenno, the mission is compromised.

~~ Mission Failed ~~

[(PSN)robotwars7]

as someone who dislikes stealth I'd have to say no, unless this was just a particular mission type. forcing people into stealth frames just worsens the Meta and not everybody likes stealth. while it is true that Tenno are excellent covert operatives, what makes them truly great is their ability to adapt when compromised. we're also capable of devastating hit-and-run tactics, and can wield immense firepower. I feel the Tenno would be weaker if they had to completely rely on stealth.

I'd be totally fine with a new mission type that is stealth-oriented, but I don't want stealth forced onto myself and others. variety is what keeps games strong.

[Beggining]

Adding to this:

15 minutes ago, (PS4)robotwars7 said:

Ehile it is true that Tenno are excellent covert operatives, what makes them truly great is their ability to adapt when compromised. we're also capable of devastating hit-and-run tactics, and can wield immense firepower. I feel the Tenno would be weaker if they had to completely rely on stealth.

According to the lore, the Orokin dispatched us to fight against the Infested and the Sentients - races you can't really deal with stealthily (well, unless you're Loki maybe. But then the Orokin wouldn't really need to create other types of frames, right?)

All frames seem to fall into spectrums of Lightning Bruiser category: dishing out a lot of damage while being tough through their versatility.

Edited August 12, 2016 by Beggining
I had to add some things

[Nazrethim]

Just make Stealth missions require actual stealth. IE: Spy (should trigger data purge whenever you trigger an alarm trough the mission rather than on the vaults), Deception (should come back, with multiple objectives and the condition "Alarm is triggered, mission failed"), Sabotage should have a stealth option instead of alerting the whole ship with all the methods and there should be a normal non-boss assassination that worked like Capture without everyone goin alert the moment the psychic target sees you. Also, add Invisible Detecting units and make Vault Cameras and Regulators see trough invisibility.

[BornWithTeeth]

Just now, Nazrethim said:

Just make Stealth missions require actual stealth. IE: Spy (should trigger data purge whenever you trigger an alarm trough the mission rather than on the vaults), Deception (should come back, with multiple objectives and the condition "Alarm is triggered, mission failed"), Sabotage should have a stealth option instead of alerting the whole ship with all the methods and there should be a normal non-boss assassination that worked like Capture without everyone goin alert the moment the psychic target sees you. Also, add Invisible Detecting units and make Vault Cameras and Regulators see trough invisibility.

Assassination style missions where the target is not a boss battle but just some administrator dude. The challenge is to get to that person without killing anyone else or raising the alarms.

[Nazrethim]

3 minutes ago, BornWithTeeth said:

Assassination style missions where the target is not a boss battle but just some administrator dude. The challenge is to get to that person without killing anyone else or raising the alarms.

Killing would  be necesar given how enemy spawn works. Just the alarm triggered should be the fail condition. I envision two different versions of normal Assassination:

A) The target will arrive to the location in a set timer, do his or her business and then leave. Your job is to get in position before he arrives and kill him/her before he leaves. Triggering an alarm before he arrives will trigger a Mission Failed. Triggering the alarm once the target arrives causes the target to leave in a hurry, similar to capture missions. That alarm couldn't be disabled and security will be uped a lot, spawning multiple CC units, closing blast doors you need to hack.

B) The target is in his/her office. Your job is to reach the location quietly without triggering alarms. If an alarm is triggered a timer will start to tick before the target leaves and security measures will be uped a lot, spawning multiple CC units, closing blast doors you need to hack and the alert being impossible to disable once triggered.

[Berserkerkitten]

Great idea, let's wreck the game's rapid pace and force absolutely everybody to use stealth tactics, whether they like it or not.

I'm all for making the stealth system more appealing, effective and fun to use. But keep it optional, mkay?

[Galvantula]

The gameplay would become a -lot- slower and coordinated.  In my opinion, Warframe has the same kind of appeal that Dynasty Warriors games have: you're a god defeating hordes of enemies.  Turning it into a stealth-like game would completely devastate the feel and appeal of Warframe.

[Tsukinoki]

3 hours ago, BornWithTeeth said:

Where the game scales instead is in stealth. Because one Tenno can reliably kill a squad at a time, but can be pinned down and killed by a battalion of the enemy, they would be forced to operate in a covert fashion. As you rank up your Warframe and gain access to better mods, your effective game capability is not measured by your DPS but is instead based on your mobility and stealth loadout. 'Frames like Ash, Loki, Ivara, Mirage, Equinox, Banshee, Zephyr, Nyx, etc, would be almost the default, 'frames with abilities for stealth, silent CC, mobility, and environmental manipulation, and the mods you use would be based around modifying Parkour stats, reducing weapon noise and flash, reducing visibility, increasing map awareness, etc.

So basically make every frame that isn't one you listed useless/non-existant?
Because lets just take a look at some of the other frames.
-Ember would be pointless at best and actively harmful to the missions at worst because she doesn't have any stealth abilities and focuses on AoEs
-Rhino would be pointless at best and actively harmful to the missions at worst because he doesn't have any stealth ability and relies on fighting large numbers of enemies for his abilities to work properly (see IS health and Ironclad Charge augment)
-Excalibur would be pointless at best and actively harmful to the missions at worst because he doesn't have any stealth abilities and focuses on fighting groups of enemies, or alternatively he would be broken as hek because he can wipe enemies through walls
-Saryn would be flat out harmful to the missions periods because as her abilities spread they alert everyone making it impossible to stealth with her.
-Trinity would be utterly pointless as she's a combat medic and combat has no integral part in this hypothetical "alt-warframe"

So you just want to change from one meta of frames to another without any actual change.

Also I see a Loki or Ivara able to cheese things far harder than they are currently.  Afterall they could wipe out hundreds of enemies due to their invisibility.

So basically in this hypothetical "alt-warframe" we would be losing over half of the number of frames...which I don't think would be too fun.  One of the main draws of warframe is its wide variety, and instead that variety would just be replaced with "Do you want Stealth Frame A, B, or C?".  I would find the lack of variety and the lack of number of frames very disappointing.

I would also find the mission variety lacking as well.
Afterall, can't have Survival or Defense, or Mobile Defense, Or Hijack, Or interception, Or any archwing mission with your hypothetical "alt-warframe".  Which leaves us with: Exterminate, Spy, Sabotage or Capture.  All of which would get very boring very quickly because of the lack of variety.

3 hours ago, BornWithTeeth said:

Would peeps play this?

I would play it, but then again it wouldn't be warframe.

If I want to play a stealthy game where I cant just go in and wipe the floor with tons of enemies I would play any of the MGS games, Far Cry, Assassins Creed, Hitman, etc.

Part of the draw of warframe is using your powers to destroy large amounts of enemies.
Part of the draw of warframe is being able to choose if you want to go stealthy or guns firing.
Part of the draw of warframe is the large number of frames and weapons, because you can always find something that suits you and that works relatively well.  Be it snipers, launchers, rifles, flame-throwers, or laser beams.
Part of the draw of warframe is getting stronger to the point where you can fight off hundreds of enemies and have fun slaughtering them with your friends.

So while I would play this hypothetical "alt-warframe" it wouldn't be warframe and I would be left wondering why I'm not playing MGS or something else.

I can see adding in more stealth focused nodes and mission types and reward tighter stealth but not requiring it for every single mission ever.

Edited August 12, 2016 by Tsukinoki

[Teridax68]

I'd very much like a Warframe state where stealth would be at least as viable as the current, guns-blazing M.O. for most public missions, and I wholeheartedly support changes to the environment to encourage that (especially with alerts, and I think setting off an alarm should permanently switch a mission to something more combat-intensive). However, I don't think stealth should take over completely from typical combat, and I think the beauty of Warframe is that it lets you choose how you want to approach a mission. Stealth should definitely be viable, including in pubs, but shouldn't be the new focus of gameplay, and so I don't think DE should totally shift the game's systems in favor of stealth and against overt combat.

Another aspect of this I can at least partially agree with is that I think warframes should have a relatively constant level of power in combat, and that inevitably ties into vertical power scaling, which I think the game should eventually try to get rid of if it wants to have fair, balanceable difficulty, instead of the current situation where enemies fight our cheese with more cheese, and our overpowered weapons with ridiculous damage and durability scalings at high levels. The only situation in which a Tenno's power can be truly limited against enemies is one where they're constantly gauged on a certain baseline level of strength, and where that strength can be reliably placed on a level enemies can properly match. Until we get there, though, we're inevitably going to end up in a situation where low-level enemies get mowed down without breaking a sweat, and high-level enemies are too much trouble to be worth interacting properly with.

Edited August 12, 2016 by Teridax68

[BuddaOfLife]

Good idea ,i like the stealth stuff although i dont particulary like spy because of the puzzles

I wish there where missions like transport this package to xx without been seen , stuff like that would be cool

[BuddaOfLife]

3 hours ago, Tsukinoki said:

Part of the draw of warframe is being able to choose if you want to go stealthy or guns firing.

Except very few can see beyond the biggest guns and nuke everything in a constant run to the exit