The Vacuum Within: Universal Vacuum Feedback

[ObviousLee]

you're just asking to get in trouble, you know that right?

[Zachles]

I think maybe a good solution (or maybe not), but possibly Warframe +% power range mod can increase pick up distance of vacuum's frontal and peripheral range.

[AperoBeltaTwo]

5 minutes ago, DoctorBagPhD said:

Honestly I think the biggest issue about this update (dude, where's my vacuum?) could have easily been avoided simply by keeping the Vacuum mod and allowing all sentinels/companions to equip it.

Agreed. That's another way of doing it. 

7 minutes ago, DoctorBagPhD said:

Right now it feels as though the main point of this update was to try and hide a significant vacuum nerf inside a QOL update.

Agreed. It didn't work tho.

7 minutes ago, DoctorBagPhD said:

But honestly, I'm just really disappointed that the 80% of players that relied on Carrier (either as a survival strategy or to help avoid stopping gameplay to have to pick up loot) are getting kicked square in the nads.

Thank you for that. That's the healthy way of approaching this issue from a point of someone who didn't use the carrier. And not trolling the people who are deeply concerned, as some do.

 

[RikerWatts]

9 minutes ago, Azrael said:

Lol at bragging about someone's skills at flamebaiting and toxicity. Also nice little insult on the sly, there.

What? What insult? Now you're just being the webster's definition of edgy. That's unhealthy, if I was genuinely frustrated with someone or something, you'd be able to tell. Just ask lee, I ripped at someone in our discord earlier for being an idiot.

 

10 minutes ago, Azrael said:

Uhh.... if you say so. I haven't seen anything like that. I have, however, seen plenty of hostility, toxicity, flamebaiting, and outright ignoring what people actually said.

Toward what people said when they were proclaiming they were right all the time despite being shoved in the face factual evidence and then their opinions on it needing to be changed being countered, to which escalated to hostility because of petty stuff like "ur a hypocrite" and all that garbage.
I haven't been hostile to anyone. No siree, I've been cheeky as hell though.
'cause when it all boils down to it, this is a change, and nobody likes change.
BUT THE CHANGE EVERYONE IS MISSING
YOU CAN PUT SCULPTURES ON THE FLOOR IN YOUR OPERATOR'S ROOM NOW.
THAT'S FLIPPIN AWESOME.
 

[Nep_Blanc]

2 minutes ago, SurrealEdge said:

Well for one, prevent drops from falling out of the map by fixing the boundaries on the tiles. Half the time my issue is that a drop will roll off a ledge or it spawns when an enemy body part clips through a wall pulling the drop with it. I haven't used carrier since the kavat update as the buffs provided by them far outweigh the usefulness of having vacuum.

I love Kavats, Meh being a big cat just purred by even knowing they were to become a thing.

Kavats are fun especially if you fully forma and mod them correctly, I agree only issue is Looting it takes a lot longer now, and well if you use a big &#! vacuum like Booban well we know that vacuum is not really needed then.

thing is make vacuum bound to Warframes makes it a lot easier for new players and other companions and even gives Chesa kubrow "Doge" a purpose if his pickups ever work, because he can wander around and pick up loot even farther in the map when you are fighting enemies.

1 minute ago, kuliise said:

Agree with this, I'm one of the players who used Carrier primarily because vacuum made the gameplay for me more fun. Honestly, I don't really understand why they needed to nerf vacuum, I mean 80% of players used Carrier for a reason...I don't know about you, but 80% is a pretty significant number. 

If they would simply make vacuum toggleable, and tied to your Warframe, and 12m, that would benefit everyone and everyone would be happy about the changes. Seriously, why is there a need to nerf vacuum? It was by no means "overpowered," all it was was a QoL thing that 80% of players preferred. 

80% of the playerbase is mostly like what happend to carrier? and why? well sure helios has it now but  well why less range on all of em?

Chao, The Roaring Lion

[Waxil]

1 minute ago, ObviousLee said:

you're just asking to get in trouble, you know that right?

Oh no! Not Trouble! I won't be able to post on a forum where negative feedback is censored, Oh NO!

Also new topic and new information and discussion, no graph that gets people jimmies all rustled. 

Is it against the rules to post feedback in general now?

[AperoBeltaTwo]

11 minutes ago, kuliise said:

For old vs new players, sure, I'll agree with that. But what about players with 3k hours who never go past mastery rank 12, just because they don't want to tediously rank mastery fodder? 

10m default at mr0 and from mr10+ you'll get +1 meter per rank maybe? 

[-Kryptyk-]

5 minutes ago, Waxil said:

Oh no! Not Trouble! I won't be able to post on a forum where negative feedback is censored, Oh NO!

Also new topic and new information and discussion, no graph that gets people jimmies all rustled. 

Is it against the rules to post feedback in general now?

you're spamming and repeating posts.  that's all there is to it.  It's not a new topic, no new information, and if a mod has locked the thread before, stop trying to post it again.

[Nep_Blanc]

1 minute ago, AperoBeltaTwo said:

10m default at mr0 and from mr10+ you'll get +1 meter per rank maybe? 

its not too bad considering, and for older players a good bandaid for the kick in the nuts that is done now.

Chao, The Roaring Lion

Edited October 6, 2016 by TheRoaringLion

[OnTarasMind]

Right. . . The text in the main post definitely wasn't used in a different post and partially edited. . . Oh wait -

 

[ObviousLee]

89%....tell me. what's 26+52?

(hint: it's not 89)

so since your numbers are already off, and you HAD the chart, one has to wonder: do you even look at what's presented from the devs?

[AperoBeltaTwo]

13 hours ago, AperoBeltaTwo said:

Update: Maybe increase the range of this inbuild warframe\aw vacuum with Mastery rank. (up for debate)
For example: Default at MR1 vacuum range 10m. After MR 10 you will start gaining +1m vacuum range per rank so at mr12 for example you'll have 12m vacuum radius.

 

[CaliburxZero]

No, no... Carrier doesn't Carry anything... like *cough* ammo *cough*

[Tsukinoki]

1 hour ago, Urlan said:

I can agree with that sentiment, though I don't think an additional mod should be used to improve it closer to its useful range.

1 hour ago, Silvus-Sol said:

Or they could just give it back the 12m range. There was no real reason to lower it in the first place. Making Vacuum universal is fixing it, not buffing it, as the only real problem Vacuum ever had was that it was Carrier exclusive.

33 minutes ago, Nariala said:

TL;DR: Vacuum should be 12 meters as it was originally, these half measures trying to please one party but punish another end up coming off very unrefined. 

The problem with just giving vacuum back its 12 meter range:
Because its a zero cost effect.

I think I understand DEs logic behind the nerf when they made this change.
Lets look at the old Vacuum shall we?
-Limited to Carrier only.  A very strict cost in the term of what companions you could use if you want vacuum.
-It used a mod slot and mod capacity, and used Endo to rank up.
-It was a precept and messed with what Carrier could do.  E.G. if carrier was vacuuming it wasn't shooting and vice versa.  If Carrier was using Sanctuary it wasn't doing either.  Now a sentinel can be attacking or using sanctuary or another precept and still Vacuum.

Nothing in this game that is super powerful is absolutely zero cost.
That is why DE nerfed it to be less powerful.  Since it costs absolutely nothing its not as powerful.
It's basic balancing 101: The less something costs and the less drawbacks it has the less powerful it is.

A perfect example would be the Ivara Prowl Augment.  It allows ivara to walk through the grineer and corpus barriers without suffering effects or setting off alarms in spy vaults.  Originally Loki and Ash were able to do that for free just by being invisible but it was removed from them for being too powerful.  They later re-added it as a mod to Ivara that has a cost: a mod slot, points, and endo and limited what other mods you could put on her.  That balanced out the effect.
The exact same thing happened to vacuum, just in reverse.  It went from a mod that cost things to a completely free effect.  Its perfectly reasonable that it lost some of its power along the way.

54 minutes ago, TheLeonBM said:

I feel a good middle ground would be bringing the old vacuum mod, make it usable by all sentinels and turn it into a 10 level mod. It would take a lot more endo/money to get that same 12 meter range but it would still be better than what has been implemented. 

This is really the most reasonable solution to getting a full strength Vacuum back.
Make it a normal precept that is 10 ranks.  Make it have all the drawbacks of a precept (e.g. only one active at a time so you have to choose if you want it vacuuming most of the time or doing other stuff) and cost a slot, points and endo.
That would balance it out and would allow it to go back to full strength.

[eksby]

13 minutes ago, DoctorBagPhD said:

Honestly I think the biggest issue about this update (dude, where's my vacuum?) could have easily been avoided simply by keeping the Vacuum mod and allowing all sentinels/companions to equip it. I get not giving every sentinel 12m vacuum range off the bat, I get changing Carrier's precept, and I'm really thankful that we didn't go down that horrifyingly obtuse 3 mods route, but why not give players the opportunity to ramp up the vacuum distance if that's what they want or need?

I think it would be better to have innate vacuum tied to the Warframe, mostly because sentinels die very easily. Every time my Carrier has died in a mission, I then have to purposely die just to revive him. I know many other people who do this too, simply because Carrier's original vacuum was that good a QoF function. So having it tied to Warframe would solve that issue, and would also allow companions like kavats and kubrows to be used more often as well. I know I've wanted to use kubrows and kavats for a long time, but the annoyance of not having vacuum prevented me from doing so. 

I do think it would be interesting to have mods that ramp up the vacuum distance, but I would like the innate vacuum to stay at 12m. 6m right now is much too low, it's become painful for me to play now, I have to backtrack so much more and using parkour is out of question now if I want to pick up the drops.

[Azrael]

25 minutes ago, _Vortus_ said:

even the inside of a sphere, from the center is measured by its radius.  

This is true, but hardly makes any kind of point. The radius is 6m instead of 12, meaning it has 1/8th of the volume.

[Stonehenge]

7 hours ago, ObviousLee said:

if its effectively negating the use of every other sentinel in the game by a massive majority, then yes, it's in need of a balance adjustment, which is exactly what happened. nobody used anything other than carrier, and "let me die so i can get my carrier back" is and has been one of the most commonly said things in games for quite some time. I'm no exception to this, as one only needs look at my profile to see the obscene amounts of use i have with it. a 6 meter range is absolutely fine, as now players cannot stand in one spot aimlessly and accrue mountains of resources, thus easymode. Now, we gotta work for it, which is absolutely fine by me.

Ah man, sometimes i wish i could press the upvote button a thousand times.

[RistN]

This vacuum topics SUCK!

Get it?vacuum...suck:)

+1 OP

 

Edited October 6, 2016 by RistN

[--Q--Kyl0Ren]

3 hours ago, KAHO16 said:

Thanks for everyone who gave me a useful opinions.

But TVW is too sudden, without prior warning or giving any moment to accept,

So I will need more time to adapt this update.. or maybe I can quit when I coudn't adapt it.

Ya.....then complain that The war within is being delayed. If DE release something quickly and effectively complain its kinda soon and dint have time to adjust. Seriously? Welp the community

[CandyDragon]

Just now, Tsukinoki said:

Nothing in this game that is super powerful is absolutely zero cost.
That is why DE nerfed it to be less powerful.  Since it costs absolutely nothing its not as powerful.
It's basic balancing 101: The less something costs and the less drawbacks it has the less powerful it is.

Honestly given the lack of diversity that sentinel mods currently have, it was always a Zero cost for carrier.   It was also fine to just make the mod usable by all companions, since then it wouldn't be subjectively zero cost.

Instead we now argue semantics and avoid the real issue of "is gathering loot and drops an engaging element of gameplay in a game designed to be a fast paced shooter". 

[AperoBeltaTwo]

7 minutes ago, RistN said:

This vacuum topics SUCKS!

Get it?vacuum...suck:)

+1 OP

You gonna burn in hell for this pun. I'm gonna burn in hell for laughing through my facepalm.

Edited October 6, 2016 by AperoBeltaTwo

[Tsukinoki]

I think I have figured out DEs reasoning at least:
Because its a zero cost effect.

I think I understand DEs logic behind the nerf when they made this change.
Lets look at the old Vacuum shall we?
-Limited to Carrier only.  A very strict cost in the term of what companions you could use if you want vacuum.
-It used a mod slot and mod capacity, and used Endo to rank up.
-It was a precept and messed with what Carrier could do.  E.G. if carrier was vacuuming it wasn't shooting and vice versa.  If Carrier was using Sanctuary it wasn't doing either.  Now a sentinel can be attacking or using sanctuary or another precept and still Vacuum.

Nothing in this game that is super powerful is absolutely zero cost.
That is why DE nerfed it to be less powerful.  Since it costs absolutely nothing its not as powerful.
It's basic balancing 101: The less something costs and the less drawbacks it has the less powerful it is.

A perfect example would be the Ivara Prowl Augment.  It allows ivara to walk through the grineer and corpus barriers without suffering effects or setting off alarms in spy vaults, further it buffs her prowl speed a bit.  Originally Loki and Ash were able to do that for free just by being invisible but it was removed from them for being too powerful.  They later re-added it as a mod to Ivara that has a cost: a mod slot, points, and endo and limited what other mods you could put on her.  That balanced out the effect.
The exact same thing happened to vacuum, just in reverse.  It went from a mod that cost things to a completely free effect.  Its perfectly reasonable that it lost some of its power along the way

TL;DR: Its a good thing it was nerfed because now its a zero cost effect where before it cost something to use and equip.  Since now its free and doesn't even mess with other sentinels precepts or mods or anything else it shouldn't be as powerful as the old 12m one.
EDIT: And just to note this is what I think DEs reasoning is, not my own...So don't assume that I'm super happy with a 6 meter vacuum.  Just trying to explain what I think DEs position on this is.

Edited October 6, 2016 by Tsukinoki

[Culaio]

After testing vacuum today I realized that its even worse then I thought, dunno if its because host or because of internet connection but during my tests I saw that true range of vacuum(at least for me, dunno about others) is 4 meters not 6

[Nep_Blanc]

2 minutes ago, kuliise said:

I think it would be better to have innate vacuum tied to the Warframe, mostly because sentinels die very easily. Every time my Carrier has died in a mission, I then have to purposely die just to revive him. I know many other people who do this too, simply because Carrier's original vacuum was that good a QoF function. So having it tied to Warframe would solve that issue, and would also allow companions like kavats and kubrows to be used more often as well. I know I've wanted to use kubrows and kavats for a long time, but the annoyance of not having vacuum prevented me from doing so. 

I do think it would be interesting to have mods that ramp up the vacuum distance, but I would like the innate vacuum to stay at 12m. 6m right now is much too low, it's become painful for me to play now, I have to backtrack so much more and using parkour is out of question now if I want to pick up the drops.

Tie it to WF makes design choices a lot easier and a lot less hassle, pickup range tied to mastery rank with a minimum of 10 meters adding up after you reached MR 10 is a great reward for playing longer then usual in the game.

Just now, RistN said:

This vacuum topics SUCKS!

Get it?vacuum...suck:)

+1 OP

 

ITS SUCS BALLZ now XD

Chao, The Roaring Lion

[RistN]

1 minute ago, AperoBeltaTwo said:

You gonna burn in hell for this pun. I'm gonna burn in hell for laughing though my facepalm.

Love stupid jokes