Vacuum Experiments: Failure & Successes

[Troll_Logic]

12 minutes ago, Alcoholism said:

That still does not disprove what Megan said.
What myself and many others been saying on the forums has been correct the whole time and Megan just went and proved it.
The topic is not about vitriol enacting change in general, it's about the use of vitriol in the forums - which does not enact change as Megan stated.
People need to use the forums correctly.

Dude, really?

So let me understand your point so you think that if two people make reasoned and concise arguments while twenty thousand people whine and complain, you think that DE will think "Well, only two people object so it doesn't really matter."

Yeah, right.  Keep thinking that.

[Chipputer]

28 minutes ago, Alcoholism said:

That still does not disprove what Megan said.
What myself and many others been saying on the forums has been correct the whole time and Megan just went and proved it.
The topic is not about vitriol enacting change in general, it's about the use of vitriol in the forums - which does not enact change as Megan stated.
People need to use the forums correctly.

The problem is that the vitriol, last night, incited what, essentially, amounted to a riot on the forums. Said riot basically flooded the general discussion and general feedback forums, spilled over into other forums, and even spread outward from there. Youtubers, twitter users, and the reddit (of course the reddit, as if they'd do anything else that didn't amount to throwing a tantrum over not getting exactly what they wanted), were all throwing the same level of feedback at them, with a good portion of them including things like, "why don't they ever listen," or, "why do they never give us what we ask for?"

Vitriol doesn't enact change, on its own. This level of vitriol? That does. That pushes things to happen. The peace has to be kept. Something had to give. Of course they're going to say vitriol doesn't enact change, in order to keep up the positive image of the company.

[radastir]

38 minutes ago, Zendadaist said:

Phew. This was the solution I'd been hoping for all along tbh. Having it as an equippable mod means people can choose whether to use it or not. I've noticed a small but very vocal portion complain vociferously that vacuum ruins their energy orb management etc. So now this way everyone wins.

Best quick solution to be implemented. Making it a passive with the option to turn it off in the menu for tactical pick ups would surely take its time to be coded properly.

Edited October 7, 2016 by radastir

[Koldraxon-732]

Corpus Rathuum = Index. Opinion changes from 'another scanning task' to 'looking forward to it'.

Guessing it'll involve Vandal weapons. Maybe even the Braton and Lato Vandals?

Edited October 7, 2016 by Koldraxon-732
Future-unto-past tense misarrangement detected.

[SuikiAmon]

14 minutes ago, Koldraxon-732 said:

Corpus Rathuum = Index. Opinion changes from 'another scanning task' to 'looking forward to it'.

Guessing it'll involve Vandal weapons. Maybe even the Braton and Lato Vandals?

Wrong thread, mate.

[N64Gamefreak]

Hi Megan (and other DE staff):
There's already been instances of players asking why their Vacuum mod isn't working, as they may not know that the old Vacuum was converted to Ammo Case and that their new Vacuum mod is unranked.  I recommend changing the name of the new Vacuum mod (at least temporarily) to something similar, like "Universal Vacuum", so that people will know that this is a new mod.

[SuikiAmon]

1 minute ago, N64Gamefreak said:

Hi Megan (and other DE staff):
There's already been instances of players asking why their Vacuum mod isn't working, as they may not know that the old Vacuum was converted to Ammo Case and that their new Vacuum mod is unranked.  I recommend changing the name of the new Vacuum mod (at least temporarily) to something similar, like "Universal Vacuum", so that people will know that this is a new mod.

Even better would be if they changed it back to a universal passive with the 12m range, leaving a mod slot free.

[Alcoholism]

57 minutes ago, Troll_Logic said:

Dude, really?

So let me understand your point so you think that if two people make reasoned and concise arguments while twenty thousand people whine and complain, you think that DE will think "Well, only two people object so it doesn't really matter."

Yeah, right.  Keep thinking that.

You're assuming everyone who is whining and complaining are making "reasoned and concise" arguments - which hardly ever happens. In fact I saw about 70% of the threads yesterday bashing the developers or being salty with absolutely nothing feedback or suggestion worthy of the forums.

However the other 30% that gave valid points with good feedback and came up with suggestions were actually listened to as they held meaningful discussions.
Your logic that a complaint = feedback is incorrect. Your logic that everyone using bitter criticism and malice = progress is also incorrect.
What you are doing is essentially disagreeing with Megan, which is pretty hilarious considering they actually know what's going on as it is their game and their forums. So I will be taking their word over yours - sorry!

[SuikiAmon]

2 minutes ago, Alcoholism said:

You're assuming everyone who is whining and complaining are making "reasoned and concise" arguments - which hardly ever happens. In fact I saw about 70% of the threads yesterday bashing the developers or being salty with absolutely nothing feedback or suggestion worthy of the forums.

However the other 30% that gave valid points with good feedback and came up with suggestions were actually listened to as they held meaningful discussions.
Your logic that a complaint = feedback is incorrect. Your logic that everyone using bitter criticism and malice = progress is also incorrect.
What you are doing is essentially disagreeing with Megan, which is pretty hilarious considering they actually know what's going on as it is their game and their forums. So I will be taking their word over yours - sorry!

That doesn't make them right.

[Alcoholism]

49 minutes ago, Chipputer said:

The problem is that the vitriol, last night, incited what, essentially, amounted to a riot on the forums. Said riot basically flooded the general discussion and general feedback forums, spilled over into other forums, and even spread outward from there. Youtubers, twitter users, and the reddit (of course the reddit, as if they'd do anything else that didn't amount to throwing a tantrum over not getting exactly what they wanted), were all throwing the same level of feedback at them, with a good portion of them including things like, "why don't they ever listen," or, "why do they never give us what we ask for?"

Vitriol doesn't enact change, on its own. This level of vitriol? That does. That pushes things to happen. The peace has to be kept. Something had to give. Of course they're going to say vitriol doesn't enact change, in order to keep up the positive image of the company.

The issue wasn't that they didn't listen though.

People forget that they took the necessary steps one at a time; vitriol was not necessary. They were intending to make changes based on feedback they were going to inevitably get. Hence why it was not necessary for people to act so childishly about it. They clearly stated it was experimental and subject to change. Why it was interpreted otherwise makes me wonder if the majority of the community actually gives a damn or just like to be angry for the sake of being angry.

[(PSN)WINDMILEYNO]

The death threat part is sickening....not DEs fault, but on whoever is taking this game that serioulsy...

 

[Epicagemo]

kubrows should get a link mod that basically gives our warframes innate vacuum.

[Chipputer]

Just now, Alcoholism said:

The issue wasn't that they didn't listen though.

People forget that they took the necessary steps one at a time; vitriol was not necessary. They were intending to make changes based on feedback they were going to inevitably get. Hence why it was not necessary for people to act so childishly about it. They clearly stated it was experimental and subject to change. Why it was interpreted otherwise makes me wonder if the majority of the community actually gives a damn or just like to be angry for the sake of being angry.

They pretty much just like to be angry about something for the sake of it.

I remember stating a few times that people should take the chance to experiment with other sentinels and see why those of us who didn't use Carrier made the choice not to. That was a no go. They were too mesmerized by large numbers (let's measure the volume of vacuum hurr hurr) and a temporary inconvenience to their usual programming to listen.

The main thing is, though, that vitriol-- that concentrated cesspool-- is what enacted this quick of a turnaround. The idea that vitriol doesn't cause change is simply a silly PR statement meant to discourage people from acting that way in the future. The truth of the matter, however, is that it does enact change when done to the level that it was last night.

[Alcoholism]

Just now, Chipputer said:

They pretty much just like to be angry about something for the sake of it.

I remember stating a few times that people should take the chance to experiment with other sentinels and see why those of us who didn't use Carrier made the choice not to. That was a no go. They were too mesmerized by large numbers (let's measure the volume of vacuum hurr hurr) and a temporary inconvenience to their usual programming to listen.

The main thing is, though, that vitriol-- that concentrated cesspool-- is what enacted this quick of a turnaround. The idea that vitriol doesn't cause change is simply a silly PR statement meant to discourage people from acting that way in the future. The truth of the matter, however, is that it does enact change when done to the level that it was last night.

Oh I do agree large amounts of vitriol - i.e. sending in hundreds of complaints to a company about something specific is going to be far more useful compared to a controlled "Give us feedback and suggestions on a broad range of aspects".

I just don't feel it was that necessary here, at least not in the way I had seen with people derailing threads and using personal attacks (some of which against forum guidelines). This isn't really just my opinion though - DE have been saying that it's a WIP and they wanted feedback and suggestions for this very particular aspect of sentinels as they went along and made changes. Vitriol is good for targeting something specific that is not currently being looked at. However sentinel vacuum has been very specifically targeted by DE - so vitriol is not needed in this case. Hence why Megan stated what she did; from a company standpoint why would they need mass amounts of complaints if they already know something is wrong with it? They need suggestions. They don't need senseless complaints that already address the same issue over and over (which just wastes their time).

[Troll_Logic]

10 minutes ago, Alcoholism said:

You're assuming everyone who is whining and complaining are making "reasoned and concise" arguments - which hardly ever happens. In fact I saw about 70% of the threads yesterday bashing the developers or being salty with absolutely nothing feedback or suggestion worthy of the forums.

However the other 30% that gave valid points with good feedback and came up with suggestions were actually listened to as they held meaningful discussions.

How you can read something and interpret the exact opposite again and again?

I've posted multiple examples of the vast majority complaining with a few reasoned responses and you keep thinking that my examples are the exact opposite.

1 hour ago, Troll_Logic said:

"Vitriol does not enact change" in itself, but I'm saying that the amount of it will.

So while someone will always ignore someone screaming, they will notice if thousands of people are en masse.

1 hour ago, Troll_Logic said:

Dude, really?

So let me understand your point so you think that if two people make reasoned and concise arguments while twenty thousand people whine and complain, you think that DE will think "Well, only two people object so it doesn't really matter."

I'll say it again for the last time just as others have said it as well, "While DE doesn't listen to any specific person who is just whining, they will notice when a very large group does."

 

 

[Tesseract7777]

37 minutes ago, SuikiAmon said:

Even better would be if they changed it back to a universal passive with the 12m range, leaving a mod slot free.

Unlikely to ever happen. From what I understand, a part of the reason for the nerf in the first place, was they thought it would be unbalanced to both give you 12m and give you a free mod slot on all your sentinels as well. I don't see how a mod slot tax is unfair for 12m on any sentinel. 

Think of it this way: If you were already using Vacuum, you can now keep using it on Carrier, or use it on any sentinel. You were already equipping a mod and taking up a slot to get that 12m vacuum range. If you were a Carrier user who used it for Vacuum, the only thing that's changed is you can now do the same thing on any sentinel. 

I don't see them giving it back to us -- the whole point of the nerf was because it was a passive, buffing it adds it back as mod, makes sense. Might as well accept it, I think its what we are getting. 

[SuikiAmon]

1 minute ago, Tesseract7777 said:

Unlikely to ever happen. From what I understand, a part of the reason for the nerf in the first place, was they thought it would be unbalanced to both give you 12m and give you a free mod slot on all your sentinels as well. I don't see how a mod slot tax is unfair for 12m on any sentinel. 

Think of it this way: If you were already using Vacuum, you can now keep using it on Carrier, or use it on any sentinel. You were already equipping a mod and taking up a slot to get that 12m vacuum range. If you were a Carrier user who used it for Vacuum, the only thing that's changed is you can now do the same thing on any sentinel. 

I don't see them giving it back to us -- the whole point of the nerf was because it was a passive, buffing it adds it back as mod, makes sense. Might as well accept it, I think its what we are getting. 

I don't see how making it easier to collect loot would be unbalanced.

Any case, I refuse to accept this. DE messed up, badly.

[Tesseract7777]

On the topic of vacuum changes, I think another important thing to be looked at here, as mentioned in another thread by BornWithTeeth, is that stats are a much bigger issue. Carrier Prime, for example, is absurd power creep over the other sentinels, and he doesn't even have great survivability to begin with. The other sentinels, and their weapons definitely need some serious buffing, and not just in the form of "giving them a wraith/prime/prisma/etc." 

Also, some of the precepts need reworks. While Carrier will probably drop some in usage, with his new ammo precepts, I will just bet you that he will be the most popular still. And the problem is that some of the sentinels precepts need tweaking/updating/reworking. Some of them are simply obsolete from an older time in the game. 

I'll go through a short list: 

Helios Detect Vulnerability is utterly unrewarding. After all that scanning so you can make use of it... it needs a huge buff, almost pointless. 

Shade: Invisibility is extremely unreliable compared to Huras 

Wyrm: His CC is weak, totally out shined by Diriga, and his damage isn't great. He should be this in-between of Diriga and Dethcube (dethcube for mainly damage, diriga to be really good at cc). Wyrm should be a sort of hybrid of the two, and he doesn't really do this well. His cc needs to be better, and he needs to damage enemies better, either with weapons or precepts. 

Dethcube: Poor dethcube, the damage sentinel and both him and his weapon don't do damage worth anything. He needs enormous buffing. 

Diriga: In a pretty good place honestly, probably needs no more than a little tweaking, especially with the vacuum change/buff (his new mod to use), I expect aside from statistics skewed because of people using helios for scanning, he will be second most popular to vacuum in new sentinel meta. 

Djiinn: Fatal Attraction has been buffed a few times and is better now, but while cool, his weapon is still pretty weak, like all sentinels and sentinel weapons its stats need buffing. Djinn's fatal attraction also sometimes works a little too well, sometimes putting the player a bit too much at risk. Perhaps this could be mitigated somewhat without messing with the core of the ability. The problem is partly that with sentinel abilities you don't really know when they are going to trigger most of the time. Perhaps for this particular precept, you could have some way to decide when it activates/deactivates manually. Just a possible idea, perhaps others have more ideas for Djinn. He is a tricky one. 

[Tesseract7777]

7 minutes ago, SuikiAmon said:

I don't see how making it easier to collect loot would be unbalanced.

Any case, I refuse to accept this. DE messed up, badly.

They said they were experimenting to begin with, that they were looking for feedback and would likely be changing things. And people freaked out. If you feel wronged then you misread the situation  -- from the beginning they said they were looking for strong feedback and would be considering serious changes. And then you know what? They did just that. I don't see what they messed up here, to be quite frank. 

They have also said before they prefer to start with smaller stats because it is better to have to buff later then nerf later. 

Anyways, you don't have to accept it, but it is what it is. 

You are asking for a huge buff, beyond what you already had. You already had a 12m vacuum mod, now you have it for all sentinels, not just carrier. That is nothing but a buff! You are asking for a buff DE never gave to take away in the first place and never offered (a 12m passive vacuum). You are demanding a buff that they aren't taking back because they didn't give. 

I'm not saying you can't ask for a buff, but nothing was taken away from you here . Carrier also got a really good new mod, that may likely still make it the new meta. 

[SuikiAmon]

2 minutes ago, Tesseract7777 said:

They said they were experimenting to begin with, that they were looking for feedback and would likely be changing things. And people freaked out. If you feel wronged then you misread the situation  -- from the beginning they said they were looking for strong feedback and would be considering serious changes. And then you know what? They did just that. I don't see what they messed up here, to be quite frank. 

They have also said before they prefer to start with smaller stats because it is better to have to buff later then nerf later. 

Anyways, you don't have to accept it, but it is what it is. 

You are asking for a huge buff, beyond what you already had. You already had a 12m vacuum mod, now you have it for all sentinels, not just carrier. That is nothing but a buff! You are asking for a buff DE never gave to take away in the first place and never offered (a 12m passive vacuum). You are demanding a buff that they aren't taking back because they didn't give. 

I'm not saying you can't ask for a buff, but nothing was taken away from you here . Carrier also got a really good new mod, that may likely still make it the new meta. 

I don't want to use Carrier. I want to use Helios, Djinn, or even Diriga.

I'm not asking for a huge buff, since it's not really a game-changing mechanic. As someone else said, it's a quality-of-life change. Collecting the things we're farming for shouldn't be such a chore.

[Tesseract7777]

1 minute ago, SuikiAmon said:

I don't want to use Carrier. I want to use Helios, Djinn, or even Diriga.

I'm not asking for a huge buff, since it's not really a game-changing mechanic. As someone else said, it's a quality-of-life change. Collecting the things we're farming for shouldn't be such a chore.

You are essentially asking for an extra mod slot, no? You already have the quality of life change, in that you can use a 12m vacuum mod on any sentinel. What you are asking for is a straight buff to your sentinel, because you would now have that vacuum, and an extra mod slot. 

Or Am I misreading here? 

[SuikiAmon]

1 minute ago, Tesseract7777 said:

You are essentially asking for an extra mod slot, no? You already have the quality of life change, in that you can use a 12m vacuum mod on any sentinel. What you are asking for is a straight buff to your sentinel, because you would now have that vacuum, and an extra mod slot. 

Or Am I misreading here? 

You very much are. I'm not asking for an extra mod slot, I'm asking for a mod slot that's now free, that I can use to increase my Sentinel's survivability, or its utility.

[Tesseract7777]

Just now, SuikiAmon said:

You very much are. I'm not asking for an extra mod slot, I'm asking for a mod slot that's now free, that I can use to increase my Sentinel's survivability, or its utility.

Huh? It sounds like you are contradicting yourself. 

Before any of these changes, you needed to use a mod to use vacuum. Now you still do, but you can use it on every sentinel. Allowing you to have this without a mod would be an extra mod slot you didn't have before. And you said you don't want an extra mod slot. 

So you are happy with the changes then? 

[SuikiAmon]

Just now, Tesseract7777 said:

Huh? It sounds like you are contradicting yourself. 

Before any of these changes, you needed to use a mod to use vacuum. Now you still do, but you can use it on every sentinel. Allowing you to have this without a mod would be an extra mod slot you didn't have before. And you said you don't want an extra mod slot. 

So you are happy with the changes then? 

You are reading quite wrong. An extra mod slot would be like adding an extra slot on top of all the others, similar to a stance slot for melee weapons, or an aura/exilus slot for Frames.

That's not what I'm asking.

I'm asking for a free slot that I can put a mod in that won't be unusable since Vacuum would be occupying it already.

[Tesseract7777]

4 minutes ago, SuikiAmon said:

You are reading quite wrong. An extra mod slot would be like adding an extra slot on top of all the others, similar to a stance slot for melee weapons, or an aura/exilus slot for Frames.

That's not what I'm asking.

I'm asking for a free slot that I can put a mod in that won't be unusable since Vacuum would be occupying it already.

Ah, you are confused by my wording. No, by extra mod slot I mean extra space to put a mod, I thought this was quite clear from the context, it seems my post was misread. Making  12m Vacuum a passive would give you one "extra" place to put a mod, that you didn't have before. It wouldn't be a new slot coded in, but it makes for the same difference in terms of our discussion -- You have one more place to put a mod that you didn't before.

This is a huge buff that they never offered in the first place, all I am saying in regards to that, is that it is fine to ask for it, but they didn't take anything away or wrong anyone here. From the beginning they said this was an experiment, they changed things quickly, and they never offered us a free 12m range vacuum or even suggested it. 

Edited October 7, 2016 by Tesseract7777