The 're-buff' to Vacuum actually made things worse

[Golmihr]

2 minutes ago, BornWithTeeth said:

Sentinels do need to be a bit tankier, alright. 

And perhaps make them repairable for a revive option.

[FreezerFlare]

It might have done some damage community wise, But when it comes down to the health of the game, 

This change fixed alot and will keep alot of people from quitting. 

The death threats are not okay in the slightest, but for those of us just ranting and requesting for them to revert the nerf, the range being reverted (Not using the word buff because it should have never been nerfed in the first place) back to what it should have been in the first place is allowing many of us to get back into playing.

 

[Kothophed]

26 minutes ago, NGSBRReAPeR said:

I want to kill myself now

Don't.   Humanity, has created so much, done so much good, to be marred so irrevocably by such petty wretches.  Every human being has a basic instinct: to help each other out. If a hiker gets lost in the mountains, people will coordinate a search. If a train crashes, people will line up to give blood. If an earthquake levels a city, people all over the world will send emergency supplies. This is so fundamentally human that it's found in every culture without exception. Yes, there are arsehats who just don't care, but they're massively outnumbered by the people who do.  Surround yourself from the good in humanity and oppose the evil, secure in the knowledge that you are on the more numerous side.

[NGSBRReAPeR]

Just now, Kothophed said:

Don't.   Humanity, has created so much, done so much good, to be marred so irrevocably by such petty wretches.  Every human being has a basic instinct: to help each other out. If a hiker gets lost in the mountains, people will coordinate a search. If a train crashes, people will line up to give blood. If an earthquake levels a city, people all over the world will send emergency supplies. This is so fundamentally human that it's found in every culture without exception. Yes, there are arsehats who just don't care, but they're massively outnumbered by the people who do.  Surround yourself from the good in humanity and oppose the evil, secure in the knowledge that you are on the more numerous side.

 You weren't meant to take that seriously, I've lived through much worse things than this.

As for your reply, you are completely correct. But it baffles me how much great deeds are hidden and left forgotten by arsehats.

 

And there's no way in hell I'm leaving this Earth without leaving some mark of recognition in it

[Kothophed]

I realized it was unlikely you meant it seriously, I was just using your post to make a point that humanity should not be judged solely on the deeds of arsehats.  That, and it was worth looking somewhat foolish on the offchance you meant it seriously and I might be able to make you rethink.  Goes back to the whole instinct to help thing.

On topic:  I like how they combined the Carrier rework with a simultaneous incentive to use one of the least popular sentinels.  I hope that the Diriga gets love next, love the appearance of the thing but man is it weak.

[LeaserResael]

Please, stop generalizing or making it look like the "Players made death threats" is a huge number. Please compare the amount of players giving fair arguments versus the amount of people who made those death threats... Those people certainly are crazy/trolling/insane and should be banned, this is a game and that shouldn't be forgotten, but it's a game people spend/spent money on, so they have a right to complain if they think something is not right (those who complain in a civil and logical way, not insulting of course).
Still, NOTHING excuses people making death threats, so I'm sorry that happened and I wish DE never has to experience that again.

Now, this "problem" you think we have now was brought by DE themselves, people asked for an INNATE WARFRAME VACUUM, TOGGLEABLE.

That means that every companion would be freed from the vacuum ability and everyone would be able to simply choose what they wanted to use (sentinels, kubrows or kavats). It's DE themselves who came up with the "split into 3 mods", then the "passive for all sentinels but with 6 meters" and now the "a sentinel only mod with a max rank of 12 meters again".
They are doing whatever they want to do, but they sure aren't listening to what a most people were asking, so this "problem" you mention is nothing but their own doing.  

[TheVeiledScion]

1 hour ago, PrVonTuckIII said:

  Reveal hidden contents

So first, I just want to point out that there's zero reason to make thank-you threads for buffing Vacuum. People literally threatened them until they gave in. We should be ashamed, not happy with ourselves and them. They tried to make things better, and because of our childishness, the balance is worse than what it was.

On topic, the whole point of the Vacuum nerf was to ensure that the playerbase actually used something other than Carrier/Prime. With the nerf, there was actually some tiny reason to use something other than that Sentinel.

And then of course, players decided to throw a fit and make death threats to DE, and so they did the logical thing, and changed it so that every Sentinel had the original Precept.

Sounds great except now Carrier has both the ammo mutation, increased ammo capacity buff, and Vacuum. Which firmly puts it a nautical mile ahead of the competition, if they could be called that anymore.

...

So this is where's it's at? We whine, we rage, we threaten, and now the balance is even worse than when it started? This is what we wanted from the Vacuum changes?

Here's the thing, and it's such a simple concept: the problem is NOT that Carrier is too good. The problem is that the other sentinels are NOT good. Therefore, making Carrier less useful would never have increased the use of the other sentinels; only improving those sentinels could do that.

 

This is the problem with much of DE's approach to balance: rather than dealing with the actual problem (in this case, useless sentinels), they always go after the thing that actually works (in this case, Carrier). That's not how you solve problems. Fix the other sentinels, and people will use them more.

[LethalAffliction]

Vacuum isn't the sole reason why carrier is popular. Sure vacuum is nice but with or without range needs or buffs I will still use carrier.

Why? The carrier has the most survivability due to its EHP and how bad other sentinel precepts are.

Vacuum is my priority and then it's sentinel survival. If sentinel dies then I will die with it.

Don't get me wrong. Vacuum is nice at 12m range but death threats are not okay and range isn't all what makes carrier popular.

Why are useful things nerfed to be useless when useless things should be buffed to be useful? It's not being OP. It's having a purpose. Shades cloak is one concept of useless that doesn't fulfill its purpose.

Edited October 7, 2016 by LethalAffliction

[--Q--Kyl0Ren]

2 hours ago, PrVonTuckIII said:

  Hide contents

So first, I just want to point out that there's zero reason to make thank-you threads for buffing Vacuum. People literally threatened them until they gave in. We should be ashamed, not happy with ourselves and them. They tried to make things better, and because of our childishness, the balance is worse than what it was.

On topic, the whole point of the Vacuum nerf was to ensure that the playerbase actually used something other than Carrier/Prime. With the nerf, there was actually some tiny reason to use something other than that Sentinel.

And then of course, players decided to throw a fit and make death threats to DE, and so they did the logical thing, and changed it so that every Sentinel had the original Precept.

Sounds great except now Carrier has both the ammo mutation, increased ammo capacity buff, and Vacuum. Which firmly puts it a nautical mile ahead of the competition, if they could be called that anymore.

...

So this is where's it's at? We whine, we rage, we threaten, and now the balance is even worse than when it started? This is what we wanted from the Vacuum changes?

Carrier was chosen not only for vacuum but for survivability as well which almost everyone seems to forget. Even before with the 6m range, after the dust settled people would have chosen carrier prime cause of that reason. Unless u want your sentinel dying every 5 secs of a sortie or other tough missions. DE as usual fail to see the bigger picture of the problems with the sentinel mods. They should be like companion mods with link health , link armor, shields etc and not a fixed amount of increase to health / shields etc. Not having this makes most other sentinels besides carrier prime too weak and unplayable nevertheless. 

[Tesseract7777]

If Carrier is now too op still, too popular, then buff the other sentinels!!! God knows most of them could still use a buff or too, like Dethcube. Especially, Dethcube. 

If we buff all the sentinels we will be fine. Let's start suggesting specific buffs for all the sentinels to give DE ideas to go from. 

[BornWithTeeth]

2 minutes ago, Tesseract7777 said:

If Carrier is now too op still, too popular, then buff the other sentinels!!! God knows most of them could still use a buff or too, like Dethcube. Especially, Dethcube. 

If we buff all the sentinels we will be fine. Let's start suggesting specific buffs for all the sentinels to give DE ideas to go from. 

Mostly just buffing their general survivability, really. Carrier Prime is waaaaay tankier than the other sentinels, and this is one of those cases where I would argue for the lower values to be brought up to match the outlier. Those rare cases, as I generally view that sort of thing as power creep, but I do feel that sentinels need more toughness.

 

 

I know that's not what you were looking, sorry! For what it's worth, I'm currently feeding my Helios a couple of Forma and preparing a completely maxed out build centred around scanning and Detect Vulnerability, I think that's a really neat piece of augmentation.

Edited October 7, 2016 by BornWithTeeth

[Tesseract7777]

4 minutes ago, BornWithTeeth said:

Mostly just buffing their general survivability, really. Carrier Prime is waaaaay tankier than the other sentinels, and this is one of those cases where I would argue for the lower values to be brought up to match the outlier. Those rare cases, as I generally view that sort of thing as power creep, but I do feel that sentinels need more toughness.

 

 

I know that's not what you were looking, sorry! For what it's worth, I'm currently feeding my Helios a couple of Forma and preparing a completely maxed out build centred around scanning and Detect Vulnerability, I think that's a really neat piece of augmentation.

I think stats probably are the biggest overall issue (including weapons stats), but I do think for a couple of the sentinels, that some precept tweaking/buffing would be in order. 

Diriga is already pretty good in that regard, I think (I haven't used him in some time), and I know Djinn's precept got a decent buff not long ago. But poor Dethcube kind of gets the short end of the stick, and Detect Vulnerability is fun, but it isn't very good. One random spot, one one enemy at a time, doesn't give much of a multiplier. Shade's invisibility in general is kind of buggy, and hardly reliable. Just a few examples. 

I think you are right stats are the biggest outstanding issue, and I'm not asking for precept reworks (apart from maybe Dethcube), but I think several of them could use a buff, especially with how strong carrier's new one is. 

For my favorite, Helios, I think that Detect Vulnerability should be much more useful. Either allow him to give a few vulnerability points at a time, or make the multiplier higher, maybe always make it appear on the head so you can get headshot multiplier along with it. Something... it's just so weak, it's cool but it's hardly noticeable. You should be rewarded for getting all or most of your enemies fully scanned and then equipping that mod. 

Edited October 7, 2016 by Tesseract7777

[PossiblyMG]

 Not gonna bother reading the thread and somebody most probably already mentioned this, however Prisma Shade will now start growing to be more used when compared to the Carrier Prime, especially in raids or in frames that are highly based on  spamming/casting, such as EV Trin.

The only reason Carrier Prime would still be relevant would be for ammo-inefficient weapons like the Soma. Other than that, you'll slowly see that Prisma Shade will start overruling.

[I-Am-MoMoJoJo]

1 minute ago, Tesseract7777 said:

If Carrier is now too op still, too popular, then buff the other sentinels!!! God knows most of them could still use a buff or too, like Dethcube. Especially, Dethcube. 

If we buff all the sentinels we will be fine. Let's start suggesting specific buffs for all the sentinels to give DE ideas to go from. 

Dethcube, give it some actual damage comparable to the more powerful weapons in the game, make it's weapon mods share your weapon mods (this could be done with every sentinel, because having 2 of each max rank weapon mod is a huge amount of busy work) and make its Vaporize deal a % of enemies health as damage, it's supposed to be the damage sentinel, so make it do damage.

Shade, make it's invisibility reliable, and you choose when to use it.

Wyrm, give him some actually good CC, something like a Rhino stomp or a radial blind.

Djinn, make his attractor make you immune to firearms while it is active, otherwise you just die when using it.

Diriga, not sure, it's actually pretty good, maybe just ramp up the frequency it uses its abilities.

Helios, I don't think needs much, possibly another ability of some kind to make it less niche.

Increase survivability of the sentinels, even my Carrier ends up dying on high level missions sometimes.

[I-Am-MoMoJoJo]

5 minutes ago, Maseguad_il_Belo said:

 Not gonna bother reading the thread and somebody most probably already mentioned this, however Prisma Shade will now start growing to be more used when compared to the Carrier Prime, especially in raids or in frames that are highly based on  spamming/casting, such as EV Trin.

The only reason Carrier Prime would still be relevant would be for ammo-inefficient weapons like the Soma. Other than that, you'll slowly see that Prisma Shade will start overruling.

idk if that is true, Shades invis is too unreliable generally it is better to go for CC than invisibility because even with reliable invisibility it is easy to get hit by a stray shot and killed anyway.

Edited October 7, 2016 by I-Am-MoMoJoJo
spelling

[LuckyCharm]

3 hours ago, PrVonTuckIII said:

Sounds great except now Carrier has both the ammo mutation, increased ammo capacity buff, and Vacuum. Which firmly puts it a nautical mile ahead of the competition, if they could be called that anymore.

Except it doesn't. Because It means i'll never have to use carrier ever again, since I never need extra ammo on any of the guns I use. Diriga or shade for me now. And I couldn't be more pleased. I never used carrier for anything but vacuum. I didn't even give it a weapon since it would do things other than clean up my mess.

[Avereth]

I am failing to understand how the vaccum range matters exactly?  You have the same amount of reason to still use another sentinels now as when it was only 6m.  Changing vaccum range doesn't matter when every single one has it.  The real issue is that only carrier prime and maybe wyrm prime can survive some hits.

[Arithin]

They didn't change it this quickly due to childish threats.  They changed it because it was a controversial decision internally (balance vs fun factor) and the well written SANE negative feedback that pushed the development team's idea of a universal unchanged range vacuum to the forefront.

 

They clearly prepared to either leave it as is in a more balanced state (less range in trade of no specialization), or put it in the other way depending on feedback.  And no, it wasn't a clear cut decision.  WF fans have traditionally campaigned heavily against user unfriendly features so it was anything but a clear call.  A sizable portion of people are STILL against universal vacuum (why we got it sentinal restricted instead of on wf), as they are with other things.  Like auto sprit with toggle for run (shot down on twitter) and no auction house (shot down on forums) and plenty of others.  

[AdunSaveMe]

We're certainly not worse off for this. Carrier is still ahead, but now it's not because of something as useful as vacuum.

From here we can focus on improving the abilities of other sentinels.

[BornWithTeeth]

1 minute ago, Arithin said:

They didn't change it this quickly due to childish threats.  They changed it because it was a controversial decision internally (balance vs fun factor) and the well written SANE negative feedback that pushed the development team's idea of a universal unchanged range vacuum to the forefront.

 

They clearly prepared to either leave it as is in a more balanced state (less range in trade of no specialization), or put it in the other way depending on feedback.  And no, it wasn't a clear cut decision.  WF fans have traditionally campaigned heavily against user unfriendly features so it was anything but a clear call.  A sizable portion of people are STILL against universal vacuum (why we got it sentinal restricted instead of on wf), as they are with other things.  Like auto sprit with toggle for run (shot down on twitter) and no auction house (shot down on forums) and plenty of others.  

It's not about whether or not DE's decision was influenced by the threats. It's about the fact that they received them at all. I never once thought that the decision was made due to DE being threatened, I just think it reflects really badly on the community that this is how people react to balancing issues.

[I-Am-MoMoJoJo]

3 minutes ago, Arithin said:

They didn't change it this quickly due to childish threats.  They changed it because it was a controversial decision internally (balance vs fun factor) and the well written SANE negative feedback that pushed the development team's idea of a universal unchanged range vacuum to the forefront.

 

They clearly prepared to either leave it as is in a more balanced state (less range in trade of no specialization), or put it in the other way depending on feedback.  And no, it wasn't a clear cut decision.  WF fans have traditionally campaigned heavily against user unfriendly features so it was anything but a clear call.  A sizable portion of people are STILL against universal vacuum (why we got it sentinal restricted instead of on wf), as they are with other things.  Like auto sprit with toggle for run (shot down on twitter) and no auction house (shot down on forums) and plenty of others.  

I feel like the initial change (5-6 meters) made the game fundamentally less fun whereas the 12 meter range (like it should be) made actual progress, I still think that having it be a Warframe passive is the best option because it means that you can have any companion equipped or none at all and still have it, for me, there is no balance needed because not getting a resource just because you weren't literally standing on it vs getting far more resources in an area, why does this need balance, oxium comes specifically from oxium ospreys, cryotic comes from excavations, argon crystals come from the void, of which ya don't need many, nitain comes from alerts, clan resources come from invasions, there are few resources other than those that warrant farming and getting them slightly slower due to not having vacuum feels like more or a punishment than balance. idk about sprint with toggle for run, I'd like that explained a little more (because I'm interested), as for an auction house, I feel like we need one in Warframe, trade chat is a joke, and as a result I never use it, and Maroos bazaar is the same joke just tucked away in a gathering area rather than a chat window (honestly if anyone is against an auction house, what drugs are you on).

[Valthryn]

3 hours ago, PrVonTuckIII said:

We started with Carrier already carrying a little over half the Sentinel usage. Then we went to a point where there was actually a better reason to use other Sentinels (if a small, insignificant reason). Now, we're at a point where there is zero reason to use anything but Carrier. That's not good.

Actually what you're saying makes no sense.

Carrier doesn't buff Vacuum.

All sentinels can have Vacuum.

It's the same as it was before the rebuff except that now, Vacuum isn't S#&$.

The re-buff to Vacuum has no effect on whether or not people used carrier with their Vacuum. Vacuum was S#&$ on all sentinels before the rebuff, now it's good on all sentinels. The quality of Vacuum has no different effect on any specific sentinel. Ammo mutation and ammo pool increase are great, but they're directly rivaled by Dirigia's stunlock precepts, Shade's invisibility and Helios' codex scanning if you're trying to do codex stuff. Although it's likely that people will still use Carrier Prime simply because other sentinels need a massive buff to health, shields and armor in order to not be one-shot by a stray bullet, which has nothing to do with Vacuum.

I swear, some people just try to be contrarians for no good reason.

[CrazyKaori]

Just to confirm is the actual newly implemented version of vacuum, that all sentinels get, actually working as intended? Because as it stands I can't see any difference regardless of if my carrier is dead or alive.

The main reason I have carrier around is to sweep up ammo for my machine guns and now I'm simply running out of ammo, whereas before I was not.

So whatever they've done it clearly isn't allowing any of the sentinels to offer anywhere near the kind of functionality that carrier offered before and was necessary in my opinion when walking around with weapons that chew ammo as a light snack.

[xXx_mtv_xXx]

Not sure if troll thread or serious.

Not sure if report or upvote.

[(XBOX)EternalDrk Mako]

5 minutes ago, xXx_mtv_xXx said:

Not sure if troll thread or serious.

Not sure if report or upvote.

both ?