Bladestorm rework feedback

[Nazrethim]

Just now, tisdfogg said:

I never said you did, I was referring to the "rotting for years" part.

But, like I said, I agree with the general sentiment. It's a minor tweak that adds busywork for the exact same effect i.e, watching a cutscene of the same, tired animations that I could draw from memory by now, with perfect detail. I'm right there with ya, buddy.

Oh, sorry then. Yeah, the "rotting for years" is more of a figure of speech

[jfhsanseiIII]

I like the idea of cast bladestorm and after the first enemy you get a multiplier, like memes combos, that starts up, you then target your next enemy, and as you chain together your attacks the multiplier goes up causing more damage.  You get a timer that can be extended up to a max of say five seconds to target your next enemy.  I think that'd take care of kill stealing, dealing with energy, and putting the responsibility of dps in the player's hands.  I think with the current iteration more than half the enemies will be killed before the ash is finished marking. 

[Separius]

It should be like this:

4 enters bladestorm targetting mode by changing his other abilities

1 removes mark from a marked target

2 marks a target

3 is bladestorm itself

4 leaves bladestorm mode, marks stay on targets that's alive so that you can enter bladestorm mode, mark some targets, leave the mode, go to stealth, enter bladestorm mode and edit targets or execute the attack. Switch mark actions and the bladestorming around however it feels nice for you.

There, everyone can be happy. Hire me, Blizzard.

Edited October 31, 2016 by Separius

[OldSnakeMGS4]

Just now, Separius said:

It should be like this:

4 enters bladestorm targetting mode by changing his other abilities

1 removes mark from a marked target

2 marks a target

3 is bladestorm itself

4 leaves bladestorm mode, marks stay on targets that's alive so that you can enter bladestorm mode, mark some targets, leave the mode, go to stealth, enter bladestorm mode and edit targets or execute the attack.

There, everyone can be happy. Hire me, Blizzard.

Way too complicated...the new toggle and mark system will be fine.

[Separius]

10 minutes ago, OldSnakeMGS4 said:

Way too complicated...the new toggle and mark system will be fine.

Haters WANT bladestorm to be complicated! "It's too easy he steal our kill, too easy!" is all what you hear. Yeah people are complaining about the ability of an assassin themed warframe to KILL in a children/teen's 3rd person shooter computer game, in which exp is shared anyway. Lets have people who play him solve deriviations. Yeah Ash's ult was the most pressing issue in a mosly pve co-op game. S#&$ needed balnace, that's the number one problem with the game right now. 

Edited October 31, 2016 by Separius

[TheThunder]

they should give Ash Blade Dash from Excalibur as 4

and Excalibur should have his old Power Jump from closed beta as 1

[Serbian2G]

I like the change. It's a step in the right direction.

[aerosoul1337]

6 hours ago, tisdfogg said:

I agree that my idea is definitely not perfect, I just had this thought that it would be cool to have a ghostly-themed warframe that can pass through things (Yay for Halloween inspirations!). Then it hit me that Ash should have this sort of skill, since it fits his smokey-ninja theme extremely well. So, I tried to incorporate it into a rework.

I also agree that this tweak that DE has in the oven is definitely  a let down, and a wasted opportunity. Though I wouldn't be as dramatic as @Nazrethim, Ash will be most likely forgotten for another year and a half, and remain a outdated (if somewhat effective) frame in comparison to the newly released ones. By no means terrible when it comes to performance, but bland and primitive. Which for me personally is just as bad.

This is the most disappointing decision by DE ever.

The last thing I hope for De's final release is...
Let the clones help to kill (not only attack multi-tagged targets after Ash's attack) to speed it up, I really don't want to see all the animations 1 by 1.
Or it will just like the vanilla version (no clone), but with slower "marking system".

[aerosoul1337]

7 hours ago, (XB1)FCastle74 said:

What i ment was (i can scan what i want to BS) and (while toggled) i can 3 the ancient (if i need to) and (then) execute the BS. Im trying to remain postive and optimistic. Im having trouble understanding how the "toggled" BS changes anything anyway other than the sheer number of kills one will achieve....He will still one two hit everything. and now i dont have to "aim" my 4..i can scan and then BS

If that's what you mean, you can do that with current bladestorm (try to kill disruptor first).
Honestly how could it be a buff?

[SenorClipClop]

Even if it isn't perfect (and we're kind of hoping it is), Ash will be much better for everyone. Here are just a few problems the Bladestorm fix will solve:

• Its broken skill-input/power-output ratio. Ash can instakill a room, completely safe within invincibility frames for the entire event, with no effort and no setup. This leads to people just treating him as a burst mage and less like the assassin he's supposed to be.
• Feeling. Involving the player in choosing targets makes the player more in control of how the ability is used, which is empowering and exciting. Pressing 4 and winning can be fun, but selecting your specific targets for your own reasons means that you can actually take credit for the work you do and the play you make, which will benefit the player experience huge. I don't really like Ash right now, but after the rework I will probably try him again for this reason.
• Teamwork (or at least Less Team Harass). Beyond his augments, Ash is a pretty lone-wolf sort of frame, not really adding much to the co-operative efforts of the team beyond his own raw damage. In fact, many players complain that Bladestorm takes away from their fun, because Ash just presses a button and kills everything, including the enemies his allies are currently fighting with. This kills the game for many of his allies. After the fix he'll still be able to execute, but Bladestorm will give more warning to his allies. The potential added time between the mark and the execute will be more information for allies to not bother with that target. Furthermore, the squad can rest easy knowing that Bladestorm will be taking care of the enemies only where Ash is focusing his attention, and less likely to just proc on everything and anything in the room.
• Radiation Sorties. Players handicap their team if they bring a Bladestorm Ash into a Rad Sortie and aren't godly levels of discreet, but the fix will make Ash more viable. He just has to make sure he doesn't look at his team if he gets procced.

[Marvelous_A]

2 hours ago, TheThunder said:

they should give Ash Blade Dash from Excalibur as 4

and Excalibur should have his old Power Jump from closed beta as 1

Eh no? Why would anyone want Power Jump back while you can use parkour 2.0 w/ SD? Besides SD is pretty buggy as an ult.

[Babellon]

I think @SenorClipClop really hit it on the head there. The rework of ash blade storm will (we hope) give much needed control of the ability back to the player. As a soloist and an ash enthusiast myself I won't deny that I enjoy walking through maps devastating rooms as I go, however that is the key to the statement, I don't feel challenged or engaged on ash, I'm simply enjoying the show as I watch shadow clone cut scenes. I'd much rather be able to pick my targets and deliberately destroy that bombard rather than coincidentally hit him because I targeted some lancer 20 meters across the room from him. I'll be much more satisfied with focus targeting Captain Vor than clipping everything around him with out even having to move from my perch up on that vent shaft.

More player engagement is exactly what we need. Not simply on Ash but in the game in general. People are bored because that interaction, that engaging game play is being slowly and in some cases dramatically, stripped away by peoples demands to streamline, simplify and nullify the actual gameplay.  

[(XBOX)SweatyPick3L]

7 hours ago, aerosoul1337 said:

If that's what you mean, you can do that with current bladestorm (try to kill disruptor first).
Honestly how could it be a buff?

Because we dont have to aim? We can "toggle and sweep (scan)" and untoggle=(BS) ?  Granted i think BS will be situational now, as only the enemies in front of you will be affected. 

Edited October 31, 2016 by (XB1)FCastle74

[Nazrethim]

7 hours ago, SenorClipClop said:

Even if it isn't perfect (and we're kind of hoping it is), Ash will be much better for everyone. Here are just a few problems the Bladestorm fix will solve:

• Its broken skill-input/power-output ratio. Ash can instakill a room, completely safe within invincibility frames for the entire event, with no effort and no setup. This leads to people just treating him as a burst mage and less like the assassin he's supposed to be.

Only became broken if you had Fleeting Expertise and Streamline, hilarious how many powers become cheesy spammable nukes with that. Well, I guess the problem isn't the absurd energy/efficiency ratios that make spammable nukes, the problem MUST be the powers!

7 hours ago, SenorClipClop said:

• Feeling. Involving the player in choosing targets makes the player more in control of how the ability is used, which is empowering and exciting. Pressing 4 and winning can be fun, but selecting your specific targets for your own reasons means that you can actually take credit for the work you do and the play you make, which will benefit the player experience huge. I don't really like Ash right now, but after the rework I will probably try him again for this reason.

Except we have Teleport for single target elimination, Blade Storm point was the nuke, similar to Excalibur¡s radial javelin, DE gave Excal his fancy Exalted Spam and Ash, the first frame with his own weapons, gets a sh*tty aiming tweak. The "feeling"? The ability it¡s the f*cking same for crying out loud! Seasoned players will just swipe rooms and murder everything with their effi builds. DE didn't acomplish anything other than making a mindless aim cast into an targeting mini.game that nobody who knew better wanted.

7 hours ago, SenorClipClop said:

• Teamwork (or at least Less Team Harass). Beyond his augments, Ash is a pretty lone-wolf sort of frame, not really adding much to the co-operative efforts of the team beyond his own raw damage. In fact, many players complain that Bladestorm takes away from their fun, because Ash just presses a button and kills everything, including the enemies his allies are currently fighting with. This kills the game for many of his allies. After the fix he'll still be able to execute, but Bladestorm will give more warning to his allies. The potential added time between the mark and the execute will be more information for allies to not bother with that target. Furthermore, the squad can rest easy knowing that Bladestorm will be taking care of the enemies only where Ash is focusing his attention, and less likely to just proc on everything and anything in the room.

Oh, it takes away their fun? I guess the next step would be to murder the following powers that take away the Fun too: Mirage HoM, Nova MP, Ember WoF etc etc. Because they make everything die too with little to no warning. Also "not really adding much to the co-operative efforts of the team beyond his own raw damage". How is that not team play? If you play to complete the mission you don't give a rat's arse about the kill count, and the people complaining are exactly the same "I want to have most kills" doches they are complaining about!

7 hours ago, SenorClipClop said:

• Radiation Sorties. Players handicap their team if they bring a Bladestorm Ash into a Rad Sortie and aren't godly levels of discreet, but the fix will make Ash more viable. He just has to make sure he doesn't look at his team if he gets procced.

Tell me 1 Warframe that doesn't have an Damage or CC AoE that bites you in the a** in rad sorties.

[SenorClipClop]

9 hours ago, Nazrethim said:

Only became broken if you had Fleeting Expertise and Streamline, hilarious how many powers become cheesy spammable nukes with that. Well, I guess the problem isn't the absurd energy/efficiency ratios that make spammable nukes, the problem MUST be the powers!

I'm not saying the ability's power level is broken, it's the ratio between skill and power that's broken. Ash gets to one-shot everything with finisher damage simply by pressing one button, and he's invincible the whole time. Many kills at any level with zero challenge and zero risk. Mods ensure that we can build some pretty crazy stuff on most Warframes, it's true, but go ahead and tell me that the combination of multiple-enemy finisher damage and complete invincibility at the press of a button isn't broken.

9 hours ago, Nazrethim said:

Except we have Teleport for single target elimination, Blade Storm point was the nuke, similar to Excalibur¡s radial javelin, DE gave Excal his fancy Exalted Spam and Ash, the first frame with his own weapons, gets a sh*tty aiming tweak. The "feeling"? The ability it¡s the f*cking same for crying out loud! Seasoned players will just swipe rooms and murder everything with their effi builds. DE didn't acomplish anything other than making a mindless aim cast into an targeting mini.game that nobody who knew better wanted.

You keep using past tense -- you haven't actually tried this rework, have you? Maybe you should try it before you get so opinionated about how the power feels to use. The new BS won't be single-target, it'll still wipe a room. I did say that new Ash probably won't be perfect, but if you reread my point about player interaction, the focus of this change is putting the power into the hands of the player. Similar to the new Miasma, bursting a room with Bladestorm might soon become something the player can take credit for, rather than players commonly saying on the forums with a shade of defensive guilt, "I love Ash, but I don't spam Bladestorm or anything".

9 hours ago, Nazrethim said:

Oh, it takes away their fun? I guess the next step would be to murder the following powers that take away the Fun too: Mirage HoM, Nova MP, Ember WoF etc etc. Because they make everything die too with little to no warning. Also "not really adding much to the co-operative efforts of the team beyond his own raw damage". How is that not team play? If you play to complete the mission you don't give a rat's arse about the kill count, and the people complaining are exactly the same "I want to have most kills" doches they are complaining about!

Short answer: yes, it does take away their fun. Ever wonder why this frame got the nickname Ashhole?

Long answer: The other bursty frames and builds you mention (Ember, Mirage, Nova) can make a mission trivial at lower levels, it's true, but there's a key difference between them and Ash. While the mages only add damage to the squad's total output, an unscrupulous Ash can actually harm a squad's total output. For example: ever get in a fight with a high-level Bombard, CC him, start chunking away at his health and get him down to 10% when suddenly the death mark goes over him and Ash kills that Bombard for free? All that time and effort you spent, even if it's just a second or two, was robbed of a resolving moment for you when Ash nuked it. Usually without ever even seeing your target. And whatever skill you poured into doing that, all Ash did was press 4. Ember releases continuous damage around her (which in later levels is honestly just good for CC), MP Nova adds damage only to the team's kills and HoM Mirage just buffs herself, but Ash's current Bladestorm literally gets in the way of other players' efforts and is the definition of killsteal.

While it's true that it doesn't really matter who gets the kill, can you honestly tell me you don't get salty when someone else takes credit for the work you've done?

10 hours ago, Nazrethim said:

Tell me 1 Warframe that doesn't have an Damage or CC AoE that bites you in the a** in rad sorties.

Tell me one Warframe, apart from Ash, that deals unavoidable Finisher damage to everything in the room after getting Rad procced. Friendly fire sucks and every frame can dish it out pretty easy, but Ash has automatic team suicide built right in. The Bladestorm fix is a small QoL change for Ash and big QoL change for everyone else.

[Nazrethim]

55 minutes ago, SenorClipClop said:

While it's true that it doesn't really matter who gets the kill, can you honestly tell me you don't get salty when someone else takes credit for the work you've done?

Only when I set up a kill with teleport just for the stagger to go away because some "emberhole" knocked it down or made it caught fire, or when..[the list goes on]

Quote

Tell me one Warframe, apart from Ash, that deals unavoidable Finisher damage to everything in the room after getting Rad procced. Friendly fire sucks and every frame can dish it out pretty easy, but Ash has automatic team suicide built right in. The Bladestorm fix is a small QoL change for Ash and big QoL change for everyone else.

I don't know of any, but I know of a Warframe with unavoidable Fire damage that does jack vs high level enemies but greatly scr*ws the team, or a fest of Magnetic blackholes created en masse by a lady with her clones, or getting disarmed, or being stomped into slowmo, or...[the list goes on]

 

55 minutes ago, SenorClipClop said:

I'm not saying the ability's power level is broken, it's the ratio between skill and power that's broken. Ash gets to one-shot everything with finisher damage simply by pressing one button, and he's invincible the whole time. Many kills at any level with zero challenge and zero risk. Mods ensure that we can build some pretty crazy stuff on most Warframes, it's true, but go ahead and tell me that the combination of multiple-enemy finisher damage and complete invincibility at the press of a button isn't broken.

Yes, but there were actual good alternatives to make it's effort/reward ratio more even. Alternatives that looked into making Ash's whole kit have a function without abilities overlaping. DE just ignored them all and went for the second dmbest and lazy idea possible (the most being World on Bladestorm). That's my problem with the tweak (doesn't deserve to be called a "rework" even)

Edited October 31, 2016 by Nazrethim

[SenorClipClop]

1 minute ago, Nazrethim said:

Only when I set up a kill with teleport just for the stagger to go away because some "emberhole" knocked it down or made it caught fire, or when..[the list goes on]

Fair. Most Warframe abilities can interrupt many others. But when you compare a knockdown, status proc or whatever to an effortless instakill on the part of the second party, which is more cheap?

6 minutes ago, Nazrethim said:

I don't know of any, but I know of a Warframe with unavoidable Fire damage that does jack vs high level enemies but greatly scr*ws the team,

You can always get off the ground, or move out of range after the first fire column hits you (assuming you survive). Ash just wipes you immediately. Furthermore, "other frames can do it too" is not a justification for Ash being allowed to do it. If it's that disruptive, maybe they should rework WoF as well.

8 minutes ago, Nazrethim said:

or a fest of Magnetic blackholes created en masse by a lady with her clones

This is not a Mirage problem, it's a Simulor problem. It's definitely not a Bladestorm problem.

9 minutes ago, Nazrethim said:

or getting disarmed, or being stomped into slowmo, or...[the list goes on]

These don't instakill you. Therefore they're not as bad, unless getting frozen or disarmed for several seconds is somehow worse than immediate death. And again, "other stuff causes problems too" is not an argument for Bladestorm in any way.

10 minutes ago, Nazrethim said:

Yes, but there were actual good alternatives to make it's effort/reward ratio more even. Alternatives that looked into making Ash's whole kit have a function without abilities overlaping. DE just ignored them all and went for the second dmbest and lazy idea possible (the most being World on Bladestorm)

My initial point, if you recall, was that whether or not Ash is perfected after this update (and let's face, what Warframe is perfect?), the new Bladestorm will fix a lot of problems that persisted with the old Bladestorm. I mentioned these problems back in my initial post. Even if it's not perfect (Ash has been updated many times and I doubt this will be the last time), it's a step in the right direction.

If you're opposed to the change and don't like DE's decision, what do you recommend? What's a good alternative to the old Bladestorm?

[(XBOX)Angryspy101]

13 minutes ago, SenorClipClop said:

the new Bladestorm will fix a lot of problems that persisted with the old Bladestorm.

Im sorry but how does bladestorm 3.0 fix the problems with bladestorm 2.0(current) when they are basically the same thing but with a different casting mechanic?

[Azrael]

The greatest thing about this rework is getting to watch all the Ash lovers use ridiculous arguments to try and say that BS isn't ridiculously broken. The current BS is seriously overpowered, irritating, and generally bad for the game. Period. I'm not convinced that the currently proposed rework is the best one possible, I've seen better ideas from players on the forums. But anybody that argues against changing BS at all is just being intellectually dishonest.

[Azrael]

9 minutes ago, (XB1)CFE Angry said:

Im sorry but how does bladestorm 3.0 fix the problems with bladestorm 2.0(current) when they are basically the same thing but with a different casting mechanic?

It actually does fix some of the problems, but not all of them. Players will no longer be able to kill enemies they are not aware of, and they won't be able to mark most of the units in the map and make them all invulnerable with no delay to mark targets first. It slows things down a bit, and scales back the players ability to get 90% of the kills regardless of what other players are using. But it doesn't fix the invulnerability, and it's not really much more interactive, so I'll agree with your criticism in principal.

Edited October 31, 2016 by Azrael

[(XBOX)Angryspy101]

10 minutes ago, Azrael said:

It actually does fix some of the problems, but not all of them. Players will no longer be able to kill enemies they are not aware of, and they won't be able to mark most of the units in the map and make them all invulnerable. It slows things down a bit, and scales back the players ability to get 90% of the kills regardless of what other players are using. But it doesn't fix the invulnerability, and it's not really much more interactive, so I'll agree with your criticism in principal

.

Oh look somebody who likes the ash rework and not a mindless DE white knight, anyway since you know a lot about this game, can you help me find a reason to ever use bladestorm 3.0 over something like fatal teleport. I mean the bladestorm change is going to make ash attack enemies one by one instead of the instant slaughtering we have now. So why should I waste my time marking enough enemies  multiple times to make bladestorm 3.0 worth casting when I could get it over with, by using fatal teleport with a decently modded melee weapon?

[Azrael]

1 minute ago, (XB1)CFE Angry said:

So why should I waste my time marking enough enemies  multiple times to make bladestorm 3.0 worth casting when I could get it over with, by using fatal teleport with a decently modded melee weapon?

I haven't used it either, but from what I've seen it may be good for clusters of enemies. You can sweep the mark over the group and mark most or all of them very quickly, then unleash hell. It's hard to say for sure that strategy will work without actually using the rework, but it seems reasonable. The claim that BS 3.0 is single-target is hyperbole, it just won't be reasonable to mark every enemy in the room for a single cast.

Remember that every time there's a rework, the best strategies with that frame change. You won't be able to turn new BS into old BS, but you might find that you can use it effectively if you are willing to adapt.

Then again, it may turn out to suck the biggest balls in the universe. But I'm betting that I'll be able to use it effectively.

[Azamagon]

37 minutes ago, Azrael said:

The greatest thing about this rework is getting to watch all the Ash lovers use ridiculous arguments to try and say that BS isn't ridiculously broken. The current BS is seriously overpowered, irritating, and generally bad for the game. Period. I'm not convinced that the currently proposed rework is the best one possible, I've seen better ideas from players on the forums. But anybody that argues against changing BS at all is just being intellectually dishonest.

I'm an Ash user, and I'm liking the revamp. What bothers ME is: What about the other skills, Shuriken and Teleport in particular? Both are still gonna be (well, not fully, but to most degrees) overshadowed by Bladestorm.
Just simple stuff would be fine, like:

SHURIKEN
* Now Ash throws 3 shuriken, with the third one going straight where you aim (instead of being another homing one), and has punchthrough (modifiable with P.Range)
* All shurikens stagger enemies and they all benefit from and contribute to the melee combo counter!
* All shurikens mark enemies for X duration (modifiable with P.Duration). When you use Bladestorm, these marked enemies will be attacked by your Bladestorm clones

TELEPORT
* Teleport is now freeaim, with a max distance (modifiable with P.Range).
* Teleporting into a wall while holding aim makes him autocling to the wall for a briefly extended duration (duration modifiable with P.Duration).
* Where Ash lands, he will stun enemies (opening them for finishers) in a small area (modifiable with P.Range)
* Upon using Teleport, Ash gets a brief, but quite powerful, boost to his melee attack speed (potency modifiable with P.Strength and duration modifiable with P.Duration)
* Augment change - Now called Shadow Teleport: Ash leaves a briefly lasting stationary shadow clone in his wake on the spot he teleports from. This clone throws a homing Shuriken every X seconds at enemies near it, has Y duration and Z% of Ash's health/shields etc.

SMOKE SCREEN
* Enemies staggered by the smoke suffer an accuracy debuff (potency modifiable with P.Strength) for some duration (modifiable by P.Duration).
* Augment tweaks: Now also leaves a (visually non-obstructive) smoke screen behind, which continually refreshes the accuracy debuff on enemies which are/get into it. Allies passing through the smoke gets invisibility for a duration, equal to the remaining duration of the lingering smoke.

BLADESTORM
* Toggle to get into "marking mode" (as per the revamp)
* Casting Teleport during marking mode causes all enemies caught by the Teleport's stun-AoE to be automarked for Bladestorm

Wouldn't THAT be a decent rework? :)

Edited October 31, 2016 by Azamagon

[Azrael]

1 minute ago, Azamagon said:

* Teleporting into a wall while holding aim makes him autocling to the wall for a briefly extended duration (duration modifiable with P.Duration).

This sounds like enormous fun. I've always wanted a way to make wall cling more useful in combat, this might actually help.

I actually like a lot of your ideas, and I agree that this would be a much more fun and interesting rework.

[aerosoul1337]

I can imagine how the official mega-thread will be after bladestorm rework has been released.
1.Ash fans will point out the problems.
2.Ash haters will praise DE about the rework.
3.Some players will provide other creative ideas.
4.DE developers won't really care about that thread.

To be honest Ash needs a full rework (with real efforts) to make everyone happy.

Edited November 1, 2016 by aerosoul1337