DE, stop making Warframe such a casual game.

[Midrib]

Gotta love how a post I made in the 27th of September still applies to every thread like this one, because its literally the same copy pasted "Muh endgame" trash argument, Not to sound bashful but after sooooo many posts like these, and after many times that DE answered this argument, It gets tedious and rather annoying seeing these threads pop up.

This was the post I posted on the 27th :

This is my opinion and things that I saw from 2k hours of playing this game.

Pretty much 60% of the players never did any void missions above 40 minutes, and barely anyone at all went above 60, And If a group was willing to go to 60+ It was a camping group that sat in tunnels spamming 4 abilities and destroying everything with whatever explosive they had. I hardly consider that challenging.

Endless missions are there, and in the void they are harder now than ever, The challenge is still there but You and many people don't want to do it because You want a pat on the back at the end, Which is justifiable, You did a lot of effort to reach that far, But Don't say that the challenge isn't there, because it is.

I understand the lack of incentive to run longer endless missions, But if You are truly in it for the "Challenge" You would be happy getting this far. On the subject of those endless missions not rewarding enough, Yes, DE needs to get in on this.

So my response to this whole thing is :

Is there a lack of challenge in warframe? in my opinion, No The challenge is still there, You just don't want to do it because You want a shiny reward at the end, Which like I said is justifiable, But its not available this time so You should try to have fun with the challenge itself and not the shiny prize at the end For now till DE gets to fixing it(Which they are aware about the problem so for god sake stop posting these threads)

Are the prizes not rewarding enough for doing longer missions?, Yes its an issue since ever but most people ignored it, The rotation system isn't rewarding enough when You start doing longer missions, If I'm at 4k cryotic in a excavation run and I get a vitality mod, Yes it feels like I got kicked in the balls, But Like I said this has been an issue For along time and players kept ignoring it. I'm not blaming players, I'm just saying, Why did You ignore it till now? Was it because everyone was just doing void runs so they got blinded by the shiny prime part? Why is the mission reward system is such a glaring issue right now?

 

DE Released trials which are endgame, and the first thing the player base does is discover the most cheesy way to do it and then a couple of months later, The player base complains about how Trials are only cheese and request a new "Endgame", DE releases new endgame, playerbase cheeses thro the content, and request more endgame, and even MOAR endgame, When does the whining stop?

[Reifnir]

2 hours ago, AntoineFlemming said:

So you'll only do something if there is a reward? How sad. Do you always need an incentive to enjoy something? Do you need a reward to eat something you like? Do you need a reward to spend time with someone you love? You can enjoy an experience without having some reward-based incentive.

Wrong.

Dead wrong, even.

Warframe is a game built around either getting stronger (early/mid game) or getting more shinies for Fashionframe (current endgame). Both former and latter are most of the time achieved through farming, which is a tedious, repetitive experience. Exceptions where player skill is involved are regrettably, few and far between (some tacticals/events). In a way, it is similar to Diablo (more on that later).

Now, challenge, artificial as it is, is one of the few factors that keep the players going in games like this. Diablo 3 solved the problem rather well - as soon as any given player "outgrows" his current enemies, he can crank up the difficulty, seek higher level Greater Rifts and so on, which comes with more (and better) loot. Yes, it only lasts so long, but current Warframe is like Diablo where increasing the Torment level only buffs the enemies and nothing else. Which is boring and needs to be fixed, the sooner the better. 

 

A simple analogy.

You are in a room with two doors. #1 leads to a straight corridor which you have to traverse on a timer to reach a reward box.

#2 leads to an obstacle course with masked bear traps, barbed wire and an angry alligator. Plus there's broken glass on the floor and you have to be barefooted. 

In both cases, reward box is the same.

How many people would choose door #2 in their right mind?

Edited October 10, 2016 by Reifnir

[OniDax]

Just now, Reifnir said:

Wrong.

Dead wrong, even.

Warframe is a game built around either getting stronger (early/mid game) or getting more shinies for Fashionframe (current endgame). Both former and latter are most of the time achieved through farming, which is a tedious, repetitive experience. Exceptions where player skill is involved are regrettably, few and far between (some tacticals/events). In a way, it is similar to Diablo (more on that later).

Now, challenge, artificial as it is, is one of the few factors that keep the players going in games like this. Diablo 3 solved the problem rather well - as soon as any given player "outgrows" his current enemies, he can crank up the difficulty, seek higher level Greater Rifts and so on. Yes, it only lasts so long, but current Warframe is like Diablo where increasing the Torment level only buffs the enemies and nothing else. Which is boring and needs to be fixed, the sooner the better. 

Right Dead right, even. Maybe you can't enjoy anything without some reward being attached to it, but I can and others can. So, YES, it is ENTIRELY possible to enjoy something without having some incentive attached to it.

[RoboticApplesWithLasers]

3 hours ago, Maseguad_il_Belo said:

Is this a sandbox game though? No, I shouldn't be creating content myself, because there is no incentive to do so- no reward at all.               

Why does Genre have to define your ability to enjoy the game?  in single player games do you use cheats to skip the entire game to beat it faster? the presentation of advantages only affects your perception of them, not their impact.  It is not the game's job to make you play it eternally,  The game needs to give you a good experience in order to be good,  It does not need to reward every possible action you could possibly take.  

[MagPrime]

I've been playing for years, this game has never been a satisfying challenge and has always been casual friendly.

 

[Babellon]

Warframe has been being dwindled away for at least a year now. I'm often times confused as to who is putting out the feedback that inspires some of these changes personally. Mob counts got lowered on maps based on the number of players, this was done to help the soloist who was struggling to make the objective with all  that unnecessary resistance in the way. Maps were streamlined and made smaller to aid the soloist and group alike to get to the objective smoother with less obstacles or 'empty rooms' to run through after they reduced the mob counts. Mobs were made to spawn a room away from the player to make sure they could move easily without worrying about repop. Mission rewards were scaled and balanced around the idea of getting rewarded for how fast we can go. Granted those rewards are minimal compared to someone like myself who spends a lot of time on maps, the longer you're there the more you get.

The people on forums though, don't want that, or at least haven't wanted that before now. Now all of the threads are about how bored people are, how tired they are of running the same maps really fast over and over. well, to be honest I think my entire first paragraph outlines the problems that warframe is now dealing with. This stale moment in the game is a result of those changes and that is what needs to change, what needs to be reexamined at large. When are we going to see Warframe stop being so easy? When are we going to stop seeing the forums bombarded with people who want all the rewards for speed runs? Want all the mobs removed to reduce encounters in missions? At what point do we stop letting that group of people push the rest of us aside to get their agenda met, which seems to be getting primes and other elements they can hoard and sell to players who don't know any better. 

I've said it a lot, I want my warframe back. I want my missions to have mobs on them, lots of them. It makes no sense to me that when I get onboard that grineer ship there's barely any mobs there, or they're all grouped up in a tiny room somewhere far away from me. I want my missions to be more than a quick run and click then skip to extraction for my payout. Now at the same time, I don't want it to be some hardcore fight for your life at every step either.

However to many people have over exaggerated the difficulty of the game to deliberately convence DE to make it easier, this is something we need to stop. I have a lot of comments lately to this effect. The point being to encourage people to be legitimate in their feedback and input. To not exaggerate the problem and to give accurate comments to the developers so we all benefit by having a good fun and engaging game to play.  

We on the forums don't represent the majority, but we certainly do have an effect on them by what we say here. While I do respect that it is ultimately DE's decisions to make these changes they do so on behalf of we the players. So we the players need to sincerely look at what we're saying to them. 

I agree, when is Warframe going to stop being so kindergarten easy.

[Gelkor]

4 hours ago, Maseguad_il_Belo said:

Since SotR, this game has become depressingly easy and any Post-DEAC content is uninteresting, unrewarding, or too easy to cheese with certain frames. 

And what is the "DIY mission creator" gonna do? Nothing. It's going to be the same problem. Either people are going to be sweeping through those missions without a challenge, or people will be continuously cheesing those missions with frames like ivara or wukong.

So how do you fix this game from not being as easy as a kindergarten puzzle?

Buddy.

Bud.

Bro.

Dude.

This game has always been easy if you know the right weapons and frames to use for a mission.

[BCAW]

4 hours ago, Maseguad_il_Belo said:

Is this a sandbox game though? No, I shouldn't be creating content myself, because there is no incentive to do so- no reward at all.               

 

4 hours ago, Maseguad_il_Belo said:

But again, what's the incentive. With easy void missions, it was prime parts. With sorties, it was the new season weapon. With Baro, it was the possibility of new items coming in (Which hasn't been a thing for months now). There's no point in challenging yourself just to kill time, I'd rather do something more productive.

 

3 hours ago, Maseguad_il_Belo said:

There's a difference between a challenge and mental pain

 

3 hours ago, Maseguad_il_Belo said:

>Implying that sorties are even worth doing at this point

You are not asking for challenges.I'd even go as far as to say that you don't want challenges, since apparently challenging content = mental pain, and challenging content = not worth doing.  You are asking for more incentives, a.k.a., better rewards. That's fine, nothing wrong with that, but please stop saying you want challenges when it isn't true. Have a good day.

[Ailissa]

3 hours ago, Misgenesis said:

Recent frame changes would indicate they intend to keep what little challenge the game has. But then Vacuum got made universal and its a major step back.

I dont think i have hope for WF becoming like it used to be anymore.

Because picking up loot is hardcore, right?

 

No.

 

There is a thin line between challenge and tedium and it seems people on this forum relish tedium. 

 

The game is going in the right direction and i'm glad about that. It used to be terrible. Endless missions most of us only ran for the loot, not because they were fun. Now, it's fun.

[EmptyDevil]

@Maseguad_il_Belo Why are you whining about something that is still a WIP? Did you watch the devstream? Rebecca clearly said that the mission builder would need to be balanced to prevent people from having an easy rare farm. That might end up removing the drop tables from the enemies, but if they remove the drop tables and make it all about fun, you'll probably be back here whining again.

To answer that question in the OP:

4 hours ago, Maseguad_il_Belo said:

So how do you fix this game from not being as easy as a kindergarten puzzle?

You obviously need to reel back things like OP weapons, powers, combinations that are too effective, give enemies counterplay, and certain mods. So if DE decides to rebalance something like Corrosive Projection to fall in line with Shield Disruption's values, don't be surprised.

 

[Tricky5hift]

DE, nerf this guy's favorite frames/weapons.

Give him the "challenge" he desires.

[mac10smg--Toa_of_Green]

4 hours ago, Maseguad_il_Belo said:

Since SotR, this game has become depressingly easy and any Post-DEAC content is uninteresting, unrewarding, or too easy to cheese with certain frames. 

And what is the "DIY mission creator" gonna do? Nothing. It's going to be the same problem. Either people are going to be sweeping through those missions without a challenge, or people will be continuously cheesing those missions with frames like ivara or wukong.

So how do you fix this game from not being as easy as a kindergarten puzzle?

Sorry if I'm pressing...but what about SotR (besides the star chart rework) made the game any easier?

 

 

Also...erm...what does DEAC mean? :P

[DeadScream]

"That part of the community", stop making such posts on the forums

[kaliazane]

1 minute ago, mac10smg-ToaOfGreen said:

Sorry if I'm pressing...but what about SotR (besides the star chart rework) made the game any easier?

Void rework made it easier to obtain primed parts, reducing their value.

New fusion system caused maxed Primed mods to drop in value. Its far easier now to both buy maxed ones or farm Endo in arena obtaining 300-1000 in 2-3 min.

 

[Misgenesis]

28 minutes ago, Ailissa said:

 

Because loot drops are irrelevant when you dont even have to consider them. Ammo economy is a joke for one.

But i wouldnt expect Vacuum users to think ahead of their own needs.

[mac10smg--Toa_of_Green]

2 minutes ago, ViS4GE said:

Void rework made it easier to obtain primed parts, reducing their value.

New fusion system caused maxed Primed mods to drop in value. Its far easier now to both buy maxed ones or farm Endo in arena obtaining 300-1000 in 2-3 min.

But there are a bunch of people who are also saying that the Void rework is actually worse. So, realistically, we can't say that it makes the game easier when it's a little subjective.

Also, making the fusion process less time consuming doesn't necessarily make the entire game 'easier' (you still have to get the mods in the first place after all), but I do see your point there.

[Compassion]

It's true, this game has never had any real challenge at all. At first back in the beginning T4 survivals looked scary, but the first time I tried it was a joke, sorties are supposed to be "hard" content, and I can't even get to MR11 because the only thing to do now is grind and I'm not wasting my time leveling weapons I'll use once or never just for diversity.

 

The only thing that has kept me playing is fashionframe.

[(PSN)zeratul____12]

1 hour ago, Babellon said:

 

Maybe you guys have just reached the peak of the games power and thats why there is no challenge for you. Every game has a point where you become unstoppable and then thats where the game becomes boring; the 'superman syndrome'. You guys have just reached that peak and now are calling the game boring. OF COURSE IT IS! YOU HAVE REACHED THE MAXIMUM POTENTIAL! You know the enemies inside and out, you know what weapons will work better for different types and what warframe works best for you.

 

 

[Teadude]

Making the game more challenging isn't just beefing armor and making them damage sponges. Take the Rathuum event for example. Enemies were genuinely hard and difficult to combat with new AI paths and abilities. We need something fresh so that the game doesn't become this mindless brain shooter where we spam a [x] button and watch enemies lose health, swoop in for loot and repeat. My friend and i had this conversation before to put in new challenges, harder enemies, and a new environment where obstacles and tactical positions are introduced.

We compared different third person shooter games to Warframe, and thought, in our opinion, that if this game had a heavy clunky Gears of Wars feel to it, keeping the same weapons and warframes, just a change in movement and cover system, would make the game more fun and more challenging.

If we have to go through lengths of setting challenges on ourselves then this game is extremely casual and mediocre, not to mention bland IMO. It holds a more casual appeal which makes it less appealing to us veterans/long time players. I want challenges which forces us to rethink our strategy and tactics, not our mods or buffs or damage outputs. Teamwork, use of comms, and a more hardcore aspect to the system would make this game far more interesting and entertaining. But this is just my opinion, although do consider it thoroughly.

Any arguments against or for me are welcome and i will try my best to argue back.

-T

[Babellon]

27 minutes ago, (PS4)zeratul____12 said:

Maybe you guys have just reached the peak of the games power and thats why there is no challenge for you. Every game has a point where you become unstoppable and then thats where the game becomes boring; the 'superman syndrome'. You guys have just reached that peak and now are calling the game boring. OF COURSE IT IS! YOU HAVE REACHED THE MAXIMUM POTENTIAL! You know the enemies inside and out, you know what weapons will work better for different types and what warframe works best for you.

 

 

well for some that is true. For me the game is still enjoyable, but ive watched it get torn apart by exagerated claims, misrepresentations, and misinformation. 

Ive run plenty of missions with unranked gear, replayed the intro game (new player experience) just to see the feel. the priblem is that the feeling of just walking through is prevailant throughout. there is no sense of elevated or meaningful challenge, the game feels the same on excal and mk1 weapons with damaged mods as it does with max ranked gear. The problem isnt that im maxxed out, and while i as a gamer have the ability to enjoy the game for what it is, i have to look at it honestly.

However i acknowledge that not everyone has the experience with games that i do so expectations and results may vary.

[(PSN)BMWWOW]

Said it before, will say it again.  Warframe / DE needs to concurrently begin the construction of an Epic Quest / Campaign where you can use any of your warframes / swap them out.  Like nothing we have seen so far. Not just a seasonal release, but something they take a year or more to build.  Even release it as a DLC / separate game where you import your frame.  A fully immersive, continuous story that takes you outside the tile sets.

[Zepp_]

6 hours ago, Maseguad_il_Belo said:

But again, what's the incentive. With easy void missions, it was prime parts. With sorties, it was the new season weapon. With Baro, it was the possibility of new items coming in (Which hasn't been a thing for months now). There's no point in challenging yourself just to kill time, I'd rather do something more productive.

There you go!  Go do something else.  You've lost sight of the point of playing.  

I've been playing for years and the game has only gotten better.  I even started a second, completely unrelated, account and the game is way more fun now than it was before.  It used to be a tall hill for a new player, now it is an engaging experience with a great many hours of fun replayability.

[Volinus7]

Warframe will never be hardcore tryhard complex strategic competitive or e-sport because it is financially supported by Powercreep™.

Edited October 11, 2016 by Volinus7

[ranks21]

I try to crash the engine of this game ( break it) every single chance I get and sometimes do>>>  other than that I try my melee moves with aerial finishers chained using excal's blind + charged attacks combined in one move to get to that unlisted finisher damage<<< orthos p still my fav weapon in this game...

game is tedius than challenging or fun.. when a player has to now more than ever search throughout the game's mechs for a satisfying  feeling it speaks volumes of what it has become.

[Vali]

Here's how these conversations usually go:

" We need challenging content! "

" Then stop using OP things, go for long survival runs. "

" But there's no point in doing that, we have no incentive! "

People don't want 'challenge', they want rewards.