[The Index] General Feedback

[Antiphoton]

I completed the event yesterday, and wanted to leave some opinions:

- I found it quite fun, it reminded me about my matches against bots in Unreal Tournament when I was a kid. Plus for those of us who do not play conclave, it's as if we were suddenly discovering new tilesets.

- I love how the Corpus do not have hitscan weapons with aimbots, nor a Vay Molta equivalent.

- There is a problem with our "investment". Who are we betting against? The other team, or our own team mates? If it is against the other team, then capitalization should be teamwide, not individual, otherwise it's nearly impossible to complete the target goal. If we are betting against our team mates, it becomes a griefer fest. I had to solo it.

- Powers: It's interesting to see new mechanics that prevet us from spamming that are not nullifiers, but it all went a little too far. I've tried it with several different frames, and almost never could use a power. Power orbs give too little power. Picking green orbs triggers a power drain effect (I think this is completely unnecesary, the health penalty is more than enough).
In the endurance, we get insta-killed a lot, respawning with zero energy. All this, coupled with the reduced power duration mutator, makes powers completely useless. Are you trying to emulate the power usage from Conclave? I'm not sure how is it over there, but here we cannot use anything that has a duration or a toggle. This reduces a lot of frames to depend only on their weapons, reducing variety.

- Rewards: not worth it at the moment. Hopefully the full event once released will have other mods (I'd love to see a Sonicor one).

I'm sure the investment goal and the power usage will be tweaked. Besides that, I found it quite fun, and would love to see a reward that serves as an incentive to keep playing it.

[ironfirefist]

I like the idea!

Is it normal that your health gets decreased when you bank points? The small letters didn't say that.

Are you going to fix signing up for example a 6k match and then ending up in a 1.5k match (through matchmaking) , thus losing 4.5k? (on small scale for veterans, no problem, on big scale, big problem)

[Vengeful_Vulpes]

Hi, I have played Warframe for about 2 years now, and while i don't post much on the forums i have played enough hours to not have a life.

I played the event for awhile on all the difficulties, as well as talked to some of the players during the matches. It seems among vets and more experienced players the event is way to easy, for example i was in a squad with random players and we where able to go on the endless version until the enemies were almost level 600. Although for newer players the event seems to be an appropriate difficulty and very enjoyable.

During some of the missions I talked with some other vets and they seemed to think that the level scaling increased to fast, and to that i must agree. When i was on the squad that lasted until enemy lvl 600 we only scored around i want to say 230ish and 1200 seconds, and in that time only one person was able to score over 100 points. Meaning that if a whole squad where to pick the 'high risk' that only one person would have gotten it. While I can see where you want to make the 'high risk' high risk, the reward really isn't worth organizing a squad in order to try and get everyone to 100 points.

On another note, i saw this and i have to say i completely agree with AM-Bunny on the matter, while event rewards like mods and weapons can and should make reapperances things such as event sigils and emblems should remain exclusive to the event.

16 hours ago, AM-Bunny said:

 

My Sacrifice emblem from Gravidus is the thing I'm proudest of in my account because it shows I wasn't afraid to fight a losing battle to support Corpus back then. I understand that all Event Rewards can and will return at some point, but I would think at least that the freaking Emblem would remain exclusive,

[MayuriK12]

• I like it, though I feel there's not much risk in carrying a lot of Index Points.  There's nothing to stop me from stockpiling them and running around with my trusty Amphis.  If there is a downside, I don't notice it.  Maybe an increase in damage taken while carrying more of them?
• I also like the credit-farming aspect of it.  I have an abundance of Endo, but lack the credits to upgrade my primed mods.  With The Index, I now have the means to take my power even further! (I sound like an Anyo Corp spokesperson...)
• I may just be used to the enclosed Grineer-themed arena maps, and it may also be that the brokers are fighting the ally specters, but I find I don't run into the Brokers as much as I do the Executioners.  I know Corpus don't like to pick fights, but there's profit to be had here!
• I also love the ally specters.  I was pleasantly surprised when I tried it out solo and got sped up by the ally volt.  Mag using Magnetize on the enemies, Frost freezing them in place -- I love it!  Can these warframe specters be added to other mission types?  Like in a Jupiter rescue mission, we rescue another Tenno and help them reclaim their weapons.  Or in high tier defense missions, we can get reinforcement specters.  I like our warframe specter allies, and I also look forward to seeing their favorite/prefered weapon loadouts.
• Finally, I wonder how Kela De Thaym is going to take Nef Anyo plagiarizing the Rathuum.  Perhaps a future event in which we choose between Kela and Nef and fight alongside the Executioners or Brokers respectively?  Maybe fight with them against other players?

In any event, I love this new game mode/event, and look forward to playing more of it with my friends!

[AM-Bunny]

Just now, Houndoom45 said:

On another note, i saw this and i have to say i completely agree with AM-Bunny on the matter, while event rewards like mods and weapons can and should make reapperances things such as event sigils and emblems should remain exclusive to the event.

They've since updated it to show a different badge from the old Gravidus Sacrifice Emblem.

The cynical side of me wants to think that they were hoping they could get away with being lazy thinking nobody would notice, but they produced the 'correct' badge far too quickly for that to be the case. Seems to have just been an honest mistake.

I'm glad you share the sentiment though. I don't ask for much, just some kind of proof that we were playing the game at Time X.

[EinheriarJudith]

1 hour ago, Antiphoton said:

~snip~

exactly. i dont want a subtle way of competing with my own team. if i want to compete ill play conclave and even then why would i want to compete with my own team when we already have a clear enemy. capitalization as you said should be team wide. if people want to compete against each other they'll have the leaderboards.

[plexus_brachialis]

i don't know if this has been said but the announcer thing/person/whatever sounds like claptrap x_x 

[NinjaKitsune56]

17 hours ago, Pendragon1951 said:

to be honest technically speaking this is really not a new game mode it is simply Conclave re-skined just against bots.  

So's Rathuum.

 

17 hours ago, ChasePanic said:

So, having played it a couple of times, I can't see much reason to continue once I get the preview's reward for 10 games.

The hardest difficulty offering a reward of 6000 credits simply isn't remotely worth it in a time-reward ratio.
Earlier today I ran 15 waves in Helene and came back with 20k credits and a whole bunch of levelled gear.
Likewise, people can run quick dark sector missions that end faster than Arena and come back with 20k credits for about 5 minutes work.

 

Don't get me wrong here I like the idea of this. It's an interesting new spin to gameplay and I quite enjoy it. But in a game like warframe there's always something to do, and I'm not entirely sure the credit reward will be engaging enough to keep players interested when they're already busy farming relics, opening relics, hunting down cards, grinding rep with factions, forma-ing their gear, doing sorties, unlocking the starmap, farming resources, etc.

Once you get 5 points in The Index, a second Index node unlocks, the second has a 35,000 invest/profit.

 

My only real issue with The Index, beyond squadmates swiping the points from champions you kill personally, is the mod droprate is horribly low.

[TheThunder]

i heard the Mech units from this event [Index] arent scaned automagically in our Index

pls fix it im a completionist so yes this is quite annoying for my OCD

ty beforehand

[SnipSnipSnipered]

Alright, feedback time.

Overall, it's nice, I guess. Rewards are, once again, on the underwhelming side. Gameplay..eh. Needs some work.

Enemies

The Robotic enemies are way too tanky for their own good. The fact those Jackals and Raptors are tankier than their boss-variants irks me. Not to mention the infamous 'one-shot Bursa' that just loves to barricade a room within half a second, instantly kill you if you try to pass it, and then laugh at your corpse as they steal your points. I suggest just nerfing their armor by ~50% and lowering their shields a little.

The humanoid enemies are very nice. I really love the ones that mimic your loadout, nice touch. The fact the melee ones start oneshotting you at full health around level 40 gets annoying.

That brings me to...scaling! Yes, scaling. Because we all know how 'fun and challenging' it is when you see a level 50 Corpus unit and think you can beat him. only to have his friends show up 120 seconds later at level 115. This is not fun, this is not challenging. This is asking for cheesy tactics because there's no other way to defeat them. They're simply bulletsponges that have a bonus of oneshotting you regardless of what equipment you bring. Please, think about this kind of thing. 

Rewards

Eh...it's still basically more efficient to go to Pluto to farm your credits instead of facing level 150 Corpus that'll show you the ropes. As for the mods...DE, with all due respect, do you really think an augment is gonna save the poor Prova? It's awful, and a single mod with a static (low) amount of damage on (very inconvenient) charge attacks isn't gonna help its case. As for the others, that stagger recovery thing is just...there's no room for it. It's time you combine mods together. Make Handspring combine with that one, but you should really know that none of these mods ever see any use. Shock Absorbers, Reflection, Reflex Guard, the whole deal. You know which ones I'm talking about.

All in all, some adjustments to rewards and scaling, and you're all set. Oh, and the announcer is extremely annoying.

[Therys]

After playing the Index not expecting to like it, I have to say I like it and had alot more fun with it than Rathuum. None of the champions I've come across after 20 or so runs do not seem cheap or frustrating (unlike the grineer instant death drones or total energy removal mines). Higher levels are no walkover since they will still smack me down if I play foolishly. They get abit bullet-spongey near the end of Endurance but I suppose thats what its there for? I half-expected a Nullifier champion throwing sapping osprey mines everywhere.

Moving the victory condition from kill/death ratio to points retrieval makes it better as well.

Something that isn't immensely hard means I can bring almost any frame or weapon I like and not be limited to cheese-frames

[pokeyoface]

Please remove the Mag specter's ability to stun allies when using SP

[Kai]

So... based on Personal Experience with both running the Index Solo and with a Team, as well as Missions and Endurance, I think I have an idea what you guys were trying to achieve but at the same time, failed and succeeded at the same time.

 

Index Points and Looting

Basically whoever runs over the Index Point gets it, regardless of who killed the enemy. In Index Mission 1 and 2, this part is where the failure comes in. Given the limited victory condition of 50 Index Points and each player requires to have 20 Index Points in order to return their Investment, it will always render one player with failing to reach their investment. In worst case scenario, a player or two hoarding Index Points can quickly wrap up the battle leaving the others without their Investment. I know that every man has to carry their own weight which is good, discouraging those who would rather let their allies to all the work just to earn their reward with little effort, but it also discourages players to play with those greedy hoarders.

In Endurance, the Victory condition is to have more than the enemy team and is limited by time alone, increasing by each Index Point added. This part is a success as it gives ample time for players to gather their own Index Points overtime without worrying allies from hoarding them.

Possible Solution: A portion of an ally's Index Points is added to your's when turned over. This should encourage more cooperative play rather than aggressively hoarding Index Points. The number of Index Points they can earn from their ally is always limited and they would still need to accumulate their own Index Points in order to successfully take back their Investment. So per say if the required amount of Index Points is 20 to get back your Investment, you can get a maximum of 15 points from your allies but the remaining 5 points should be coming from yourself, that should be doable. 

 

Team Killing? How?

So right now, there is one enemy who is capable of inflicting Radiation and in my experience, I have seen players chasing down me or someone else and killing them for their Index Points. Please fix this, remove the Radiation Proc or replace it with another element, anything but Radiation.

[Thundervision]

Having mixed feelings. Units aren't that cheesy like Executioners, but they do become so just at Lv.100 with both insane Armor and Shield values. And here goes Warframe again. It's fun and entertaining to have 1:1 balance when both sides can be one-shotted, but when you stumble across a bullet sponger that eats your bullets and bites you for more -- it is not fun and entertaining at all. In additional, some powers are locked to use. For example, just like with Rathuum Nekros can't use SotD in the Index... sigh.

 

To me, the main issues are:

• The number of enemies

Exactly the same thing as Rathuum -- with 4 player you NEED TO find the enemy to kill. And then they spawn pretty far from you. Add some AoE weapons and nukers and there's a chance you won't see/kill a single enemy. And if Rathuum got a Reinforcements mode -- Index haven't got it yet, so we're limited to 4 enemies among 3 sets.

• Playing against your teammates for personal score

So, a COOP-oriented game got an event a preview where you should play against the COOP-part of the game (Index points) aka playing against your teammates. Just... Really? Are you trying to demonstrate how greedy the Corpus players are? Not even talking about griefers and trolls.

• Rewards

After Rathuum these are... questionable at best.

Weapons:

Spoiler

Thermagnetic Shells (Detron) -- basically a Sobek's counterpart which makes it OK, since it has innate RAD-damage and doesn't have a fall-off allowing you to mod the weapon further for damage/utility keeping its effectiveness. Also, we already got a buffed version aka Mara Detron.

Kinetic Ricochet (Tetra) -- pretty fun to use in tight areas. Though, i'm not sure if it's working as intended: it says «up to 6 bounces» and I think i've seen it bouncing just once. Most likely a bug. And yet again, this is Tetra -- we already got a buffed version. To be fair, i think this mod would fit Cestra series more.

Static Discharge (Prova) -- oh boy! I don't even know where I should start. It will be a bit... salty, sorry. And Prova also got a buffed Vandalized version.

From the fact that Prova belongs to Machete category?

Yeah, we got a good machete recently. But what? Damage-wise they are MEH. Innate stagger effect is fine. However, there is just one stance with, what, 2 combos? And quick melee literally uses just a single animation. I don't even want to start this talk again, there are many posts/feedback material showing why Machete both the weapon and the class are bad.

Or from the fact that a trigger is a charge attack?

^{Be careful with your wishes} So, we asked for Charge attacks, you noted, you made it. Attack Speed mods have no effect. We asked to change it. You noted (i suppose so)... and ignored it. You added some melee/mods  with charge attack features ignoring Attack Speed mods. Welp. At this point i just hope there won't be Charge Attack Speed mods.

OR from the fact that its augment's effect is hilarious?

First you need to equip your melee, then you need to find the enemy, press & hold attack button for ~1.5 while face tanking shots just to zap your enemy (and probably nearby ones) with a small AoE that has no real effect but stagger which is inferior to: bullet jump knockdown, DoYouEvenGroundSlam or simply quick melee/weapon equipped. The effect itself could be a neat innate Prova feature, like you know, not just copy-paste IPS/Crit-/Status-/mixed melee weapons, but making them all unique with their own features).

The weapon class, the weapon itself and the stance are already bad enough. I don't know what the expectations were with adding this mod. Why not Serro?

These were the weapons. All 3 mods were added for weapons that already got better variants with better stats while some other «problematic» and underused weapons: Dera, Flux Rifle ^[cries], Glaxion, (Dual) Cestra, Serro, Convectrix, Angstrum, Obex got nothing 

Utility mods:

Spoiler

 

Medi-Pet Kit -- well... good and bad. Good 'cause instead of having 2 mods equipped you can use just one. Bad, 'cause you can heal your pet in a blink of an eye with your melee. This mod is like saying «don't worry about bad 6% HP regen rate, pal, your pet will be dying anyway, so here's a Bleedout time increase». Haven't played with cats for almost a month, but if this wasn't changed then it's almost useless on cats, 'cause they don't warp to you (range limit) if there are enemies around them -- Kubrows do, though.

Shield Charger -- +60% Shield from the base value +60% Recharge Rate, well...

Base 100 Shield points = 160 with SC, at max 300 = 480 points with SC. Even a 100% Shield boost wouldn't help that much. But it still has a 60% Recharge rate! Well, darn, i bet you have Guardian mod installed! So why do you need a mod that recharges Shield over time when the other mod can just replenish it instantly and both have 30s of CD and there's no a Shieldgate thing? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Can't say anything about Pain Threshold, since i don't have it. But it's very situational mod to use anyway.

 

I understand that's not everything about high-level content and all, but most of these mods are inferior to the current ones (and it's a helluva effort to grind them) people can easily get outside the Index.

 

 

 

.

[Xriborg]

For the most part, this is pretty cool. I really like the spy style enemies that take on the appearance of allies. My biggest complaint is one that I have with the endurance match. It's actually the biggest complaint that I have with Warframe:

HIGH LEVEL DIFFICULTY IS UTTERLY BROKEN IN WARFRAME

The middle ground doesn't exist in this game. It goes from cakewalk to impossible at 9 billion mph. One second you're oneshotting them, the next you do almost no damage and they're oneshotting you. This needs to become priority! It affects so much of this game beyond this event.

[RealPandemonium]

I find myself playing against my own team to opportunistically collect their points, more than I actually combat the opposing team.  Not a very fulfilling experience.  

[-Sharpz-]

Since you got a lot of feedback all I have to say is: Interesting idea but needs work. Collecting green orbs which is not being shared creates a problem.. As a veteran I have way to much credits and the enemy level is too low. I would like to see something with high level enemies which would make Warframe more challenging. I don't see much of a reward or challenge. Good for lower rank players. I am only speaking for myself.

[SamuraiPizza]

NOT an angry rant, just sharing a bad experience I had. Maybe this could be addressed in some form by DE?

 

So when I played the Index I actually had an absolute blast.....for some time. Then things went from sweet to sour to just bitter.

1) The first few matches were GREAT fun! 

2) Then I played a match where I was basically carrying the team. It was the easiest level at I got paired with fairly low MR players (I'm not an advanced player by any means, just MR9). This by itself is no problem. But then I noticed something: the players were basically following me around with faster frames (I was a Rhino...you know, because tanking FTW...) and basically picking up my index points without actually killing anything. Eh, whatever. Maybe they're really new, and are doing the whole "dash for everything you can pick up" routine. Okay fine.

3) So for the next match I equip my Ash with vitality/steel fiber/vigor/Armoured Agility/Rush/Maglev/Mobilize (I know absurd build but I needed speed and survivability) and jump into a match. Doing quite nicely, until I notice some advanced players do exactly the same thing. Stealing index points off of my kills. I messaged on the squad chat, saying "yo, I saw that. Not cool, that was my kill man." I expected something like "yo it was an accident, sorry" or something. But what I got was: "stfu, stop whining and lrn 2 play"

So...okay. One bad experience. 

4) So the next few matches went on uneventful, then in a high level match I was matched with some advanced players. Midway through I accidentally picked up a point from some guy, or maybe we were both aiming for the same enemy, I dunno. Maybe I screwed up. But I picked up the points. Now the enemy that died had a few points on him, so I picked up 3. So this player starts raging on chat, you know the usual stuff "you're literally cancer" and all that. Since this is a high level match and I'm MR9, I cannot PM him/her and apologise. I focus on staying alive and decide to message him/her later. He then actively tries to steal points from EVERY kill I make, and I could not ultimately reach my 20 point goal. I lost the 35K credit profit from that match. 

 

 

So this is a good concept. But I'm going to say something that will get me a lot of flak: the Warframe community is nicer than a lot of communities because it's a PVE game at its core that rewards you to cooperate, not compete. Here, there's an element of competition and suddenly you have toxicity levels rising. 

This is NOT to say that the whole community is toxic, it's not. Not at all. These are only a few bad experiences, I have enjoyed many many index matches. But DE, why create a situation where toxicity like this can come up? I'm not sure if others have had similar experiences, but if you have, do share. Unfortunately, this has left a bitter taste. I have my Exilus adapter, and probably will not play The Index further, unless my clannies are up for a team match and I'm off work at the same time that they're online.

 

[Xekrin]

Precisely what I wrote about in the megathread

 

[LunarEdge7]

12 minutes ago, Legion216 said:

So this is a good concept. But I'm going to say something that will get me a lot of flak: the Warframe community is nicer than a lot of communities because it's a PVE game at its core that rewards you to cooperate, not compete. Here, there's an element of competition and suddenly you have toxicity levels rising.

I read through all your post but this point. x3 agree.

[Dromeos-Prime]

And this is exactly why I only play Events\Tactical alerts with friend or solo.

[Calwon5]

Yep, thats the problem with any sort of competitive gamemode. It always lead up to toxicity in players. PVE rarely has any sort of problems like these, because everyone is inputting their efforts into one common goal, but in PVP..... its all about yourself. This Index preview is flawed in one thing, you have to pick up stuff and it only contributes to yourself, not your team. Thus, everyone is trying to get any crumb they see on the floor, even if it doesn't belong to them. Warframe is meant to be PVE, if it even revolve around a bit of PVP, it will bring the true face of many players.

Conclave: Players are toxic. They will probably gang up on you, use bullet jump to jump everywhere so they wouldn't die and then return back to kill you while you are trying to kill another. ( Not my sort of game I like )

Lunaro: Team vs Team: Opposite team stun you like crazy, really toxic.

Index: Team vs Npc: Yet..... your own team is also your enemy.

TL:DR Any sort of competitiveness, will bring out toxicity from players. It's just how some players behave naturally.

[JacarandaKnight]

I think a lot of what I wanted to say has been covered but I didn't see:

I can see what you're going for with the multilevelled arena, but due to the way that enemies change levels it ends up being a flat out teleport that's both hard to predict, and impossible to prevent.

Where enemies take a sustained focus-fire to kill, it's a bit rough to have them simply teleport away without any warning, forcing us to a) find them all over again before their shields recharge and b) potentially losing the points to someone else (even an enemy).

That multilevelled arena needs a set of ramps and to be flagged as unavailable for those ridiculous jumps the AI likes to use, the AI jumping around just isn't a strength of your engine and it makes the Index more frustrating than fun.

[SamuraiPizza]

17 minutes ago, Xekrin said:

Precisely what I wrote about in the megathread

 

There's a megathread? Dang, I didn't notice.

thanks everyone who replied, I'm glad I was not the only one who felt this way.

CALLING ANY MODS IN THE VICINITY: Would you be so kind as to please merge this in the megathread? Thank you! :)

 

[Vengeful_Vulpes]

4 hours ago, AM-Bunny said:

They've since updated it to show a different badge from the old Gravidus Sacrifice Emblem.

The cynical side of me wants to think that they were hoping they could get away with being lazy thinking nobody would notice, but they produced the 'correct' badge far too quickly for that to be the case. Seems to have just been an honest mistake.

I'm glad that seems to be the case, it would have really been a shame if they had just used the old one. Although its not a huge part of the game, exclusive emblems are imo the best way for vets and older players to say 'i've been playing x long'

 

Also regarding the index, i have played a couple more matches and I don't really know what other players think but the index doesn't really feel like it's its own game. The idea of betting on matches and the victor getting rewards  is awesome and different but the way the matches are a team versus mode feels to close to the Rathuum for it to seem like its own thing. I guess what i'm trying to say is it just feels like another Rathuum then its own game. Someone suggested that maybe a little thing of lore connecting the two games, and i think that would be cool 

Edited October 21, 2016 by Houndoom45
rewording