ArcaneSnowdrop Posted October 23, 2016 Share Posted October 23, 2016 @(PS4)DesecratedFlame The thing about Duration and efficiency is that it's essentially an unintended side-effect. While its interaction with toggle abilities is weird and illogical on the surface, the comparison with Mesa's ability that was mentioned applies to the toggle abilities as well because of how the mechanic in general works, for whatever reason. Changing that would probably break something. I don't know if there should be a change to it. Does the -60 on duration result in some sort of overall nil on the mod? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azrael Posted October 23, 2016 Share Posted October 23, 2016 6 hours ago, (PS4)DesecratedFlame said: I meant from the people that actually matter, DE. Do you actually think that bait threads, being overly vague, and not explaining why you want things, are good ways to get DE to make changes? Do I need to explain why that makes no sense at all? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azrael Posted October 23, 2016 Share Posted October 23, 2016 21 minutes ago, ArcaneSnowdrop said: I don't know if there should be a change to it. Does the -60 on duration result in some sort of overall nil on the mod? Nope. Putting fleeting on a build results in less drain overall. Pair it with a duration mod for even lower drain. Fleeting is a great mod that has a place on a lot of builds, but the minus to duration means it's not automatic either, and there are many builds that avoid fleeting. So I would say that fleeting is in a good place, and using it represents a decision that a player must weigh carefully. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArcaneSnowdrop Posted October 23, 2016 Share Posted October 23, 2016 1 minute ago, Azrael said: Nope. Putting fleeting on a build results in less drain overall. Pair it with a duration mod for even lower drain. Fleeting is a great mod that has a place on a lot of builds, but the minus to duration means it's not automatic either, and there are many builds that avoid fleeting. So I would say that fleeting is in a good place, and using it represents a decision that a player must weigh carefully. Thanks--I don't use it, even on my low-duration high-range Equinox. So yeah, there's not a ton of reason to change it, as far as I can see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArchPhaeton Posted October 23, 2016 Share Posted October 23, 2016 Another bait thread from the same user... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)DesecratedFlame Posted October 23, 2016 Author Share Posted October 23, 2016 5 hours ago, Insizer said: but actual mathematical principals energy drain is a set amount of energy over a set amount of time and it remains constant. Impacts don't work that way. Impacts are going to need to be predicted with chaos mathmatics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)DesecratedFlame Posted October 23, 2016 Author Share Posted October 23, 2016 3 hours ago, Azrael said: Do you actually think that bait threads, being overly vague, and not explaining why you want things, are good ways to get DE to make changes? Do I need to explain why that makes no sense at all? It's not bait. Anyway, I never said it made sense; I just said it worked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)abbacephas Posted October 23, 2016 Share Posted October 23, 2016 6 minutes ago, (PS4)DesecratedFlame said: energy drain is a set amount of energy over a set amount of time and it remains constant. Impacts don't work that way. Impacts are going to need to be predicted with chaos mathmatics. 4 minutes ago, (PS4)DesecratedFlame said: It's not bait. Anyway, I never said it made sense; I just said it worked. 10 hours ago, (PS4)DesecratedFlame said: LOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)wildcats1369my Posted October 23, 2016 Share Posted October 23, 2016 oh its you again.... alright moving on Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azrael Posted October 23, 2016 Share Posted October 23, 2016 28 minutes ago, (PS4)DesecratedFlame said: Impacts are going to need to be predicted with chaos mathmatics. Be honest. Are you just throwing out random mathy terms because they sound good? I know I shouldn't even be here. I feel like I'm being tricked into posting. But it's comments like that one ^^ that keep me going, They are just so entertaining! The truly amazing thing is there really hasn't been a single good argument for why fleeting needs to be changed at all. There were some weird analogies involving shoelaces, but nothing about the actual game. At the end of the day, the only real answer is that DE wanted to balance energy drain and avoid providing us with an easy dump stat, and the result has worked out just fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)DesecratedFlame Posted October 23, 2016 Author Share Posted October 23, 2016 23 minutes ago, (PS4)wildcats1369my said: oh its you again.... alright moving on I'm curious. Why did you feel the need to announce that rather than just moving on? Well, thanks for the bump, eitherway. 5 minutes ago, Azrael said: They are just so entertaining! You're welcome. And no, I am not just throwing terms out there. Go grab a ball and bounce it on your hand so that it goes 15 to 30 cm high each time, and watch what happens. It's fairly predictable for the first bounces, but it starts to get wilder the longer you bounce it. Quote Chaos theory concerns deterministic systems whose behavior can in principle be predicted. Chaotic systems are predictable for a while and then 'appear' to become random. The amount of time for which the behavior of a chaotic system can be effectively predicted depends on three things: How much uncertainty we are willing to tolerate in the forecast, how accurately we are able to measure its current state, and a time scale depending on the dynamics of the system, called the Lyapunov time. Some examples of Lyapunov times are: chaotic electrical circuits, about 1 millisecond; weather systems, a few days (unproven); the solar system, 50 million years. In chaotic systems, the uncertainty in a forecast increases exponentially with elapsed time. Hence, mathematically, doubling the forecast time more than squares the proportional uncertainty in the forecast. This means, in practice, a meaningful prediction cannot be made over an interval of more than two or three times the Lyapunov time. When meaningful predictions cannot be made, the system appears to be random. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaos_theory Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
taiiat Posted October 23, 2016 Share Posted October 23, 2016 14 hours ago, (PS4)DesecratedFlame said: It should be +60 and -30 respectively. no it shouldn't. it's a free upgrade on too many Warframes as it is. realistically it should have a lower Efficiency Bonus, and we should have one or two more Corrupted Efficiency Mods with different negatives. it's also a joke that it 'needs to be more brainless' because of Energy Drain Abilities. they already perform to an incredible degree with Fleeting Expertise exactly as it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azrael Posted October 23, 2016 Share Posted October 23, 2016 7 minutes ago, (PS4)DesecratedFlame said: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaos_theory Very good, you managed to look up chaos theory. Now what on earth does it have to do with this video game? Chaos theory isn't the "math of impacts" it's about systems of differential equations that show strong sensitive dependence on initial conditions. Most physical systems show deterioration after time because small errors compound, but that doesn't mean that chaos theory is necessary to understand something like a ball bouncing (it's more commonly applied to things like weather systems). And that certainly has nothing at all to do with energy drain in warframe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SaurusRex Posted October 23, 2016 Share Posted October 23, 2016 This thread is amazingly stupid Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)DesecratedFlame Posted October 23, 2016 Author Share Posted October 23, 2016 4 minutes ago, Azrael said: Very good, you managed to look up chaos theory. Now what on earth does it have to do with this video game? Chaos theory isn't the "math of impacts" it's about systems of differential equations that show strong sensitive dependence on initial conditions. Most physical systems show deterioration after time because small errors compound, but that doesn't mean that chaos theory is necessary to understand something like a ball bouncing (it's more commonly applied to things like weather systems). And that certainly has nothing at all to do with energy drain in warframe. The ball isn't a perfect sphere. The surface it is bouncing on isn't flawless. Environmental variables change the angle of decent and impact. Etc. As such - your (Insizer's) repeated impact analogy more closely resembles top-off skills rather than energy drain skills. Energy drain skills fit the analogy of holding up the shoe by the lace. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)DesecratedFlame Posted October 23, 2016 Author Share Posted October 23, 2016 4 hours ago, Gelkor said: Because game mechanics in Warframe necessitate a sacrifice for a bonus in the case of using Corrupted mods. And because efficiency is twice as powerful for toggle abilities as duration, in practical effect, Fleeting Expertise is already what you suggest, (at least as applied to toggle abilities). At the very least, they should say something to that effect on the mods (sort of like the bow text on fire rate mods) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trittium00 Posted October 24, 2016 Share Posted October 24, 2016 Alright DesecratedFlame, here goes. Last chance to explain this to you. It's been mentioned before in this thread but it might have been overlooked. While toggle abilities are an action which happens constantly over time, the way in which the energy costs are calculated is not like a 'constant force' to use your analogy. For toggle abilities, for a given period of time, the skill is divided into many small slices for the purposes of figuring out the energy cost. These area typically referred to as 'ticks'. In games, each 'tick' has an energy cost and the time between ticks also controls the total energy expenditure. Let's take some easy numbers as an example. A particular toggle skill costs 10 energy per second. Within that 1 second, in the background it is broken into two 'ticks' with each tick costing 5 energy every 0.5 seconds. Increasing efficiency by 60% takes the cost down to 2 energy per 0.5 second tick. But reducing the duration means that these ticks happen more often, which means the total energy cost over time goes up also. So in actual fact, if we were to use your example (and I hate to do this) of hitting something into the air where you must apply a repetitive force every X seconds (i.e. a frequency) to keep it going, then this is EXACTLY how toggle skills work. Toggle skills appear to be constant, but they are actually skills which are enabled and drain energy in small increments separated by a very small period of time, such that the drain appears to be fluid. So there you go, in great detail, I used your own whacky analogy to shoot down your own argument. I honestly hope that settles this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StinkyPygmy Posted October 24, 2016 Share Posted October 24, 2016 10 hours ago, Azrael said: Do you actually think that bait threads, being overly vague, and not explaining why you want things, are good ways to get DE to make changes? Do I need to explain why that makes no sense at all? Don't bother. I've been debating with OP for the last 2 years. You're not going to come to a compromise and have very little chance of getting a coherent or reasonable discussion out of them. They don't want a discussion, they want DE to do exactly as they say and nothing more. You're going to be wrong no matter what. DE is the boogeyman etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lhudge Posted October 24, 2016 Share Posted October 24, 2016 20 hours ago, Insizer said: Op in recovery position Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)WINDMILEYNO Posted October 24, 2016 Share Posted October 24, 2016 20 hours ago, DeMonkey said: Drat. Hype dead. Anyone can make an analogy to fit their argument. This however doesn't require an analogy, at all. In order to drain 150 energy Peacemaker needs to be active for 10 seconds. If you add a +30% duration mod on it then needs to be active for 13 seconds to drain that amount of energy. That length of time is known as a duration. The duration that the ability was active for has increased by 30%. But I'll bite, I'll fit this into your analogy. Say you hold the shoe until your arm falls off, and that took 100 hours. That's the duration you were able to hold the shoe up. You then go to the doctor, who cybernetically fits stronger muscles that magically give you +30% duration to whatever you want to do. You can then hold up a shoe for 130 hours before your arm falls off. Simple. Laughing..hard...tears falling frome my face...whew.... Oh god. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RistN Posted October 24, 2016 Share Posted October 24, 2016 Even though you can't use whole 175 % of it on powers where efficiency is based on efficiency and duration it is better to have that 175 of efficiency than duration and whole 175% is accounted in when duration is negative. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Evanescent Posted October 24, 2016 Share Posted October 24, 2016 Again? No thanks, it's causing enough problems with cheesing as is. And I don't why you're bringing up chaos mathematics, but stop. Quoting wikipedia terms with gusto is just embarassing yourself.. Unless of course you can show us some working as to how you would apply it to Warframe. I would be genuinely impressed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrBorris Posted October 24, 2016 Share Posted October 24, 2016 (edited) On 10/23/2016 at 1:08 AM, (PS4)DesecratedFlame said: It does need adjusted since the changes to toggle skills. It should be +60 and -30 respectively. Wait... you want Fleeting Expertise buffed? Edited October 24, 2016 by DrBorris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
(PSN)wildcats1369my Posted October 24, 2016 Share Posted October 24, 2016 (edited) BTW is there a way to auto hide post and threads from specific users. Edited October 24, 2016 by (PS4)wildcats1369my Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azrael Posted October 24, 2016 Share Posted October 24, 2016 2 hours ago, (PS4)wildcats1369my said: BTW is there a way to auto hide post and threads from specific users. No way. How? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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