Theoretically, why are there no "heavy set" warframes yet?

[Roachester]

5 hours ago, Mak_Gohae said:

But WF doesnt have proper physics. This why bringing this up makes no sense.

You are creating limits that dont exist in the game. That makes no sense.

Spoiler

What makes no sense is the fact that you keep accusing me of doing things I haven't done.

As long as you're hung up on the idea that believable physics have no place in video games, nothing I say is going to move this conversation forward, so I'm just going to duck out here, for both of our sakes.

Feel free to post that link whenever you're ready, though.

[arch111]

5 hours ago, Noamuth said:

Do you have something already in game to place next to her, as a size reference?

Like that?

[MagPrime]

3 minutes ago, arch111 said:

Like that?

Spoiler

 

[arch111]

This best ever Rig shows how the model must adhere to the Rig, and how a Rig can be scaled up or down, but not be altered.

In actuallity the rig on Rhino must be scaled up by 1 but the principle remains. If Rhino was bigger, ot better yet if Nova was bigger, she can be as big as the CONSTRAINTS of the Rig allows the model to be.

After that it is trial/error to get at little clipping and distortion as possible.

[(XBOX)Iris1268]

Seems like more of a headache than it's worth TBH.Unless of course you'd like to submit some concept art (that could work with the skeleton,) and come up with a balanced though creative and fun Powerset.

[(PSN)Puckish_Rogue125]

On 10/25/2016 at 10:43 AM, (XB1)DerangedMime00 said:

Ok I am really curious as to why DE has avoided creating a more heavy set warframe due to the fact we already have very tall, very short, straight, out-of-the-closet, etc. so it makes me wonder why they have not created a Sumo themed frame or something along those lines. Don't get me wrong here not adding insult nor injury just wondering why DE have not thought of one yet. What do you guys think on this; would it not be fun to have a more "rotund" character in game kicking some serious....clem?

Ad note: Take this guy pictured above. He may have been a bit of a laugh at first...until you see him solo a Giant which became a rather epic moment. ;)

He also isnt heavyset, thats just the armor.

[arch111]

4 hours ago, (XB1)Voidslayer1268 said:

Seems like more of a headache than it's worth TBH.Unless of course you'd like to submit some concept art (that could work with the skeleton,) and come up with a balanced though creative and fun Powerset.

Like I showed above,  if a model is animated in such a way that weapongrips do not clip too much, it will work.

It's a trial and error untill you hit that wall.

[Sovyul]

First I thought you were referring to something like pic related as a "heavy frame"

Which would be lovely

But no, I don't want Fatframe

[arch111]

1 hour ago, Sovyul said:

First I thought you were referring to something like pic related as a "heavy frame"

Which would be lovely

But no, I don't want Fatframe

I don't either. I bigger build and bodytype is what I would like, not the same basic body over and over.

[Tode_Gleich]

On 10/26/2016 at 4:50 AM, GreyEnneract said:

Weighing 300lbs as a human is not healthy.

For an average human, yes that would be considered overweight. I'm 6'9, almost 6'10 and work out regularly. I weigh 300 pounds, but then again I am an outlier in the common bmi system. There is a difference between being athletically healthy but having a high body mass and being a giant fatarse who can't get out of their chair. Food for thought.

Edited October 29, 2016 by Umbro_Excalibruh

[Mak_Gohae]

On 10/27/2016 at 6:14 PM, Inarticulate said:

It has proper physics.

The animations do their best to try not to clip. Animations of player and non-player characters move in believable ways given their weight distribution and shape. Jumping moves you in a roughly parabolic arc. Arrows arc. Loot rolls down slopes.

it doesnt.

All animations are applied the same to all units. The heavies move just like the normal units. There's no fall damage, a dog can knock you down, the same dog can carry anything in their mouths.

It has rules, of course, but it's sci-fi rules.

On 10/27/2016 at 6:23 PM, Khaine62 said:

After pages and pages of people explaining the situation, you don't still get it? 

A game like Overwatch, League of Legends and/or Dota? They could implement this nobody would bat an eye. Why because those games' themes (drawing characters from all over their respective world/worlds) give them carte blanche to do whatever they want with their character designs. Warframes have a specific theme: space ninja capable of crazy powers, martial arts and crazy acrobatics. The heaviest you're going to see of the warframes is something like Rhino. That's just common sense in terms of athleticism.

All you said here is that, it can because it cant. That's not an explanation.

We just got a Bard frame. That has nothing to do with anything ninja. And you see the shins on that thing? They make no sense!
 

Quote

 

I don't have anything against heavyset or even plain out and out fat characters. In fact, if DE made a boss character like that, it wouldn't bug me at all. A large/plump/chunky Corpus who size reflects his/her wealth and life of luxury? Sure. A Grinner military commander whose overdosed of some crazy steroids and growth hormones? Cool. But a Warframe? Well, to quote a great man: 

"You know, I'm sure there was an advantage to building a fat robot, but for the life of me, I just don't see it."- Vegeta.

 

Just cause you dont see an advantage doesnt mean there they cant make up one.

Come on, this is a video game, it's a fictional world, why are people putting limits their own personal limits?

Here's an example from Gundam.

This is the MS-09 Dom. It's a fat mobile suit.

And it had better movement than the standard mobile suit because it could fit more thrusters.

[ninjacat2015]

Its ninjas play free not sumos eat free.

[arch111]

Since this is so depending on theme, I thought of an elephant. There is a elephant god and Chtulu is stacked with em.

I big archer or faery is maby not so fitting. The monkey king could have been a big gorilla. Hydroid could have been Poseidon or Kraken.

I drew this real fast, but I still think this is a world away from all warframes currently in game.

So what do you think about this?

[mac10smg--Toa_of_Green]

WHY IS THIS DISCUSSION STILL A THING?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Ahem, sorry, got a little worked up there.

But seriously, this kind of thread never ends well...

[Separius]

On 2016. 10. 25. at 7:43 PM, (XB1)DerangedMime00 said:

Ok I am really curious as to why DE has avoided creating a more heavy set warframe due to the fact we already have very tall, very short, straight, out-of-the-closet, etc. so it makes me wonder why they have not created a Sumo themed frame or something along those lines. Don't get me wrong here not adding insult nor injury just wondering why DE have not thought of one yet. What do you guys think on this; would it not be fun to have a more "rotund" character in game kicking some serious....clem?

Ad note: Take this guy pictured above. He may have been a bit of a laugh at first...until you see him solo a Giant which became a rather epic moment. ;)

It would be cool.

People seem to dislike the idea of a frame not being able to parkour, but a little diversity can't hurt the game. He could roll around like a roller/bowling ball/behemoth from evolve instead of sliding and could jump like a grineer roller when reaching full speed, bludgeoning and staggering enemies that they hit.

Also the space ninja meme is getting real old and it's not even a thing anymore; We have space davy jones and space cowgirl, space robinahood etc. Not ninjas.

[Inarticulate]

On 10/29/2016 at 10:48 PM, Mak_Gohae said:

All animations are applied the same to all units. The heavies move just like the normal units.

Because they all have sufficiently similar body types and weight distributions for it to make sense to use the same animation. None of the humanoids in this game are wearing anywhere near sufficiently bulky armor to make clipping a noticeable issue.

For example, the Bombard has the same armor and prosthetics as a Lancer, giving it the same weight distribution, allowing it to use the same animations (slowed down to account for the difference in size).

On 10/29/2016 at 10:48 PM, Mak_Gohae said:

There's no fall damage,

Which can be explained the same way that our parkour abilities are explained. We can already channel Void energy into our feet to boost our jumping propulsion. It should be no surprise that we can probably channel Void energy to cushion impact with static structures, probably in a similar way as we can cushion damage from less static objects using our shields.

On 10/29/2016 at 10:48 PM, Mak_Gohae said:

a dog can knock you down

A real life dog can also knock you down. I'm fairly certain our and the Grineer's genetically augmented dog-things can perform similar feats, even against the massive weight I'd expect of our Warframes. I don't know about you, but Drahks look pretty heavy themselves.

On 10/29/2016 at 10:48 PM, Mak_Gohae said:

the same dog can carry anything in their mouths.

Chesas are genetically optimized to be able to hold resource pies in their mouths. All of the other resources are smaller than resource pies. Mods have convenient skinny parts that can be easily bitten down on. The animators can skimp out on better animations because it's not a focal point of gameplay.

On 10/29/2016 at 10:48 PM, Mak_Gohae said:

It has rules, of course, but it's sci-fi rules.

And you were the one saying this was fantasy before someone corrected you to sci-fi.

Last time I checked, the definition of "sci-fi" was more akin to "technology that we don't currently have and don't necessarily have to explain how it works". This doesn't exempt you from basic physics.

 

It seems like you are grasping at straws here.

The point is you can disobey the laws of physics as much as you want as long as you do it in a way that the audience will either find believable or can be overlooked in context.

Hek, I'll even give examples:

• Believable in context: Double jumping, wall jumping, and aim gliding are physically impossible in the real world, but they are sufficiently hand-waved by the fact that it is obvious Warframes are capable of using Void powers to assist in parkour motions, such as bullet jumping and wall latching where the Void energy use is plainly visible.
• Can be overlooked in context: Not an example from Warframe because I want an absolutely egregious example and Warframe doesn't have any at this level of egregiousness, but anywhere where a high volume of high-speed projectiles (or lasers) robotech (or dance among themselves en route to their target) in a Macross missile massacre. This is rarely believable in context, but can be overlooked in context because it looks so dammed frikkin' cool that you don't care to pay attention to the fact that it's not at all realistic.

 

And while I'm at it, physics aside, the player character having clipping issues and ill-suited animations neither is believable nor can be overlooked.

 

Also:

On 10/29/2016 at 10:48 PM, Mak_Gohae said:

Here's an example from Gundam.

This is the MS-09 Dom. It's a fat mobile suit.

-picture-

And it had better movement than the standard mobile suit because it could fit more thrusters.

It has a waist thinner than its chest and hips and by a noticeable amount. That disqualifies it as fat.

[Khaine62]

On 10/29/2016 at 11:48 PM, Mak_Gohae said:

it doesnt.

All animations are applied the same to all units. The heavies move just like the normal units. There's no fall damage, a dog can knock you down, the same dog can carry anything in their mouths.

It has rules, of course, but it's sci-fi rules.

All you said here is that, it can because it cant. That's not an explanation.

We just got a Bard frame. That has nothing to do with anything ninja. And you see the shins on that thing? They make no sense!
 

Just cause you dont see an advantage doesnt mean there they cant make up one.

Come on, this is a video game, it's a fictional world, why are people putting limits their own personal limits?

Here's an example from Gundam.

This is the MS-09 Dom. It's a fat mobile suit.

And it had better movement than the standard mobile suit because it could fit more thrusters.

The Dom and the Rick-Dom aren't fat. They have heavy armor, which you can't write off as fat. Most mecha with heavy armor looks bulkier. Hek, that's not to say anything of the real world when it comes to armor. 

Also, the fact that Dom has a series of jet engines built into its' legs to achieve better mobility. There's also a glaring problem: the Dom was built to replace Zeon's other mainstay units. It was developed after the Zaku, Zaku II and the Gouf. It has better tech and equipment, that's why it was so superior. Not because it's fat, which it even isn't.

Also, you're saying that the devs should make an entire new movement system just to justify the existence of a fat Warframe? Special treatment much? You mean to tell me that the 'frame was so bad that it couldn't even make use of it's own legs like every other frame before it? It's one thing to make a movement system that is superior to what you have. It's another to make it just so something can be up to par with the rest of its' kind. Kinda suggests that the design ain't worth it?

We're done here. You just want to see the trope 'Kevlard' put in Warframe on Warframes.

Mods...please close this thread and keep people from making more of them. You see where this always goes and I'm sure it makes most of us go: 

 

 

 

[Mak_Gohae]

9 hours ago, Inarticulate said:

And while I'm at it, physics aside, the player character having clipping issues and ill-suited animations neither is believable nor can be overlooked.

Why would they make something that has clipping and animation issues?

This excuse makes no sense at all yet you folks keep using it. Why would they not problem solve all this stuff in the design process?

12 minutes ago, Khaine62 said:

The Dom and the Rick-Dom aren't fat. They have heavy armor, which you can't write off as fat. Most mecha with heavy armor looks bulkier. Hek, that's not to say anything of the real world when it comes to armor. 

Wait, so you think when people say they want a fat frame it's not about the outer appearance but actual fat?

Why?

Of course, it's just about the outer appearance which mean that those extra outer layers are armor.

14 minutes ago, Khaine62 said:

Also, the fact that Dom has a series of jet engines built into its' legs to achieve better mobility. There's also a glaring problem: the Dom was built to replace Zeon's other mainstay units. It was developed after the Zaku, Zaku II and the Gouf. It has better tech and equipment, that's why it was so superior. Not because it's fat, which it even isn't.

All things that can be used to explain fatframe. Ex was the general frame everyone started out with and that was replaced by fat frame.

15 minutes ago, Khaine62 said:

Also, you're saying that the devs should make an entire new movement system just to justify the existence of a fat Warframe?

No, why would they need to create a new movement system?

16 minutes ago, Khaine62 said:

We're done here. You just want to see the trope 'Kevlard' put in Warframe on Warframes

And that's an issue why? There are tons of tropes in this game.

18 minutes ago, Khaine62 said:

Mods...please close this thread and keep people from making more of them. You see where this always goes and I'm sure it makes most of us go: 

You want a thread close because if the idea of a trope?

 

[Inarticulate]

16 hours ago, Mak_Gohae said:

Why would they make something that has clipping and animation issues?

This excuse makes no sense at all yet you folks keep using it. Why would they not problem solve all this stuff in the design process?

You're getting the causation in the exact wrong direction.

They're not trying to make something with clipping and animation issues. The problem is IF they want to make a fat Warframe, THEN they are forced to make completely new animations BECAUSE the existing animations would cause clipping issues.

Seriously, learn to read. I've typed this in literally just about every post I've made.

[Mak_Gohae]

10 minutes ago, Inarticulate said:

You're getting the causation in the exact wrong direction.

They're not trying to make something with clipping and animation issues. The problem is IF they want to make a fat Warframe, THEN they are forced to make completely new animations BECAUSE the existing animations would cause clipping issues.

Seriously, learn to read. I've typed this in literally just about every post I've made.

The skeleton doesnt have to fit the body perfectly. Just look like at the new frame. The shins looks like those prosthetic used for leg amputees for running.

What you are saying is that they shouldnt problem solve just because. And we know that DE is not like that because of some of the funky designs they have already made.

In fact, remember the fat dudes from the first War Within Trailer? They ALREADY created fat enemies.

So use that work and implement it on the fat frames.

There's really no excuse.

 

[arch111]

2 hours ago, Mak_Gohae said:

The skeleton doesnt have to fit the body perfectly. Just look like at the new frame. The shins looks like those prosthetic used for leg amputees for running.

What you are saying is that they shouldnt problem solve just because. And we know that DE is not like that because of some of the funky designs they have already made.

In fact, remember the fat dudes from the first War Within Trailer? They ALREADY created fat enemies.

So use that work and implement it on the fat frames.

There's really no excuse.

 

The only way to know that is to actually test it. I know people use a rig to pose models in steam movies.

That same rig can be used by someone who make a large model.

So far I have seen few suggestions or actual attempts to prove or dissprove a fat frames viability.

[Khaine62]

On 10/31/2016 at 11:36 PM, Mak_Gohae said:

 

You want a thread close because if the idea of a trope?

 

No, I want it closed because things have progressed to end of the line. There's no point to it all! Going around in circles with two sides arguing on why it should be a thing or why it can't with no true headway being made. 

If the devs do it, then they do it. That simple. I and several others have brought up various issues and our opinions about it and you, along with others have made your's known. There's no where else to go. We're not discussing some kind of true content issue here, we're discussing a hypothetical that may never come to be or may have even crossed the devs' desk already and they haven't decided what to do with it if anything at all.

There's nothing more to be done here other then trying to win more people to one side or to the other. 

 

  

[Helch0rn]

9 hours ago, Mak_Gohae said:

The skeleton doesnt have to fit the body perfectly. Just look like at the new frame. The shins looks like those prosthetic used for leg amputees for running.

What you are saying is that they shouldnt problem solve just because. And we know that DE is not like that because of some of the funky designs they have already made.

 

It's not about the "bones" of the rig but about the joints. 

If you look closely you will see that the shins may be bent like hell but the knees and feet are exactly where they are supposed to be. 

9 hours ago, Mak_Gohae said:

In fact, remember the fat dudes from the first War Within Trailer? They ALREADY created fat enemies.

So use that work and implement it on the fat frames.

There's really no excuse.

 

So far we have only seen them in a trailer. we may never see them outside of cinematics and even if we do it would still be easier to create enemies with their rather limited amount of movements than a frame.

you can't just copy paste the rig to create a fat frame. 

We have 30 different frames right now, each frame has 2 alternative movement sets that can be applied to every other frame. 

If you create a frame that uses a different rig you have to recreate all 60 movement sets to fit the new rig to prevent clipping. 

To put this into perspective: 

Let's say that they need a week for one movement set (they need probably more time, but less is unrealistic)

One week per movement set x 60 sets = 60 weeks! 

That is more than one year of work just for one frame.

And one year of work just to please a minority seems rather stupid to me if you could create like 4 regular sized frames in the same time

Edited November 2, 2016 by Helch0rn

[Inarticulate]

16 hours ago, Mak_Gohae said:

The skeleton doesnt have to fit the body perfectly. Just look like at the new frame. The shins looks like those prosthetic used for leg amputees for running.

What you are saying is that they shouldnt problem solve just because. And we know that DE is not like that because of some of the funky designs they have already made.

No, that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that it's likely not worth the resources to create a complete new set of player animations all for the sake of a single Warframe. Furthermore, those new animations will probably never be reused.

The other "funky designs" haven't had the need to completely redo every single animation for the player character.

Also, the skeleton is the easy part. I'm pretty sure you don't understand how animation works if you're bringing that up. A skeleton has no need to follow the lines of the model; it only needs to have the joints in the right places and connected to the correct other joints.

16 hours ago, Mak_Gohae said:

In fact, remember the fat dudes from the first War Within Trailer? They ALREADY created fat enemies.

-picture-

So use that work and implement it on the fat frames.

There's really no excuse.

Enemies have a MUCH smaller set of animations than player characters do. Compare the list of every possible action a player can take (including all of the actions that can be performed in cinematics and in the orbiter and include permutations with currently equipped weapon types, including unarmed) to the list of every possible action an enemy can take.

[Mak_Gohae]

7 hours ago, Helch0rn said:

It's not about the "bones" of the rig but about the joints. 

If you look closely you will see that the shins may be bent like hell but the knees and feet are exactly where they are supposed to be. 

And a fat frame would not have their joints where their supposed to because......?

Quote

So far we have only seen them in a trailer. we may never see them outside of cinematics and even if we do it would still be easier to create enemies with their rather limited amount of movements than a frame.

Of course, it's easier to create an enemy that only perform a few tasks.

But why do people keep saying this? What do you keep saying that DE should not do some work? How do you think we got all the all frames, magic? No it was work.

Quote

you can't just copy paste the rig to create a fat frame. 

Of course, like it's done with most frames.  Stuff needs to be adjusted a bit.
 

Quote

 

We have 30 different frames right now, each frame has 2 alternative movement sets that can be applied to every other frame. 

If you create a frame that uses a different rig you have to recreate all 60 movement sets to fit the new rig to prevent clipping. 

To put this into perspective: 

Let's say that they need a week for one movement set (they need probably more time, but less is unrealistic)

One week per movement set x 60 sets = 60 weeks! 

That is more than one year of work just for one frame.

And one year of work just to please a minority seems rather stupid to me if you could create like 4 regular sized frames in the same time

 

What 2 movement sets? You mean the idle animations?

The only thing that they have differently is the running animations. I think. Never really payed attention, and im probably confused because the running animation looks different at different speeds with all the crap on, on different frames. 

There's really no info that states that a fat frame requires a complete and total bottom to the top building.