Anyone else feel burned by the riven 15 mod limit

[SandDune]

People complaining about the 15 mod cap.. and here I am still at 2 Riven mods.

[GrimAtrament]

1 minute ago, SandDune said:

People complaining about the 15 mod cap.. and here I am still at 2 Riven mods.

ikr

[Callback]

Buying warframe slots so I can have 30 options (times multiple loadouts per) lets me be a lot more "creative" in how I handle missions than having only 2 slots would.

 

That said, the cap is clearly stated, so I'm not rushing.  I'm at 3 mods and letting things fill out and smooth over before I go full in on them.  They will lift the cap, but it won't be that soon.  Once more people push the cap and end up pigeonholing themselves into only keeping meta rivens despite the disposition system, the devs will see the need for keeping them more open.

Edited November 18, 2016 by Callback

[(PSN)Ozymandias-13-]

No burn felt here (yet).

I'm on console so I won't be feeling it until I get the update next year...QQ

[SenorClipClop]

12 hours ago, Irorone said:

Then answer me this, if a braton, a karak, and a tethra had the SAME stats as a result of a virtually mandatory riven mod why would you  bother to pick any individual one?

Also a lot of weapons CAN go toe to toe with end level content they just aren't AS optimized for it which is the whole mind numbing argument of PVE weapon balance.

Exactly. If a braton, karak and a tethra walked into a bar had comparable damage output, the player would no longer feel obligated to take just one of them all the time and instead would have choice and free agency in selecting weapons for a mission. A player can then make meaningful decisions between these weapons based on more than just power level -- aesthetic, familiarity, Hek, even how the gun sounds or its FahionFrame performance. This will create more variety in squads and allow a player more personal freedom. Through Riven Mods, this ability is based on RNG, it's true, but then we also get some incentive to try out weapons we may not have before. For example, I haven't tried the Lanka (not a huge fan of snipers), but TWW gave me an RMod for it that I'd really like to try on it, so now I'm finally researching the thing.

[White_Matter]

Given I only have 2 and 1 of them is for my sentinel weapon... Not at all XDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD

 

Seriously I'm tired of getting 2k endo for every sortie I complete. Get your S#&$ together DE.

[Superjive]

To the folks stating that no one (probably) uses more than 5 primaries, it might be your experience, but personally I switch every couple of missions, and enjoy using some of the less powerful weapons as well. By saying, well the limit is fine, because I won't reach it, you aren't affecting your enjoyment, but you might affect others. You might only want or need max 15 rivens, but why would you say others shouldn't want or need more?

I'm hoping DE raise the limit at some point, because I like having a greater choice in how I play. 

Arbitrarily limiting how many riven mods I can have benefits no one, but hinders my experience. Removing, or raising the limit will negatively affect no one, so why would anyone have a problem with it?

 

In short, don't expect your experience trumps others, and your limits are not for everyone. Disagreement is fine, and healthy for a discussion, but using your experience as some sort of benchmark doesn't help your argument. 

 

[i.chit.you.not]

people already complaining about 15 limit while i have only 1 mod from the tww quest for a hind weapon that i dont even have ...

it must be a riven phenomenal...

[Irorone]

3 hours ago, SenorClipClop said:

Exactly. If a braton, karak and a tethra walked into a bar had comparable damage output, the player would no longer feel obligated to take just one of them all the time and instead would have choice and free agency in selecting weapons for a mission. A player can then make meaningful decisions between these weapons based on more than just power level -- aesthetic, familiarity, Hek, even how the gun sounds or its FahionFrame performance. This will create more variety in squads and allow a player more personal freedom. Through Riven Mods, this ability is based on RNG, it's true, but then we also get some incentive to try out weapons we may not have before. For example, I haven't tried the Lanka (not a huge fan of snipers), but TWW gave me an RMod for it that I'd really like to try on it, so now I'm finally researching the thing.

So basically you'd pick based on fashion which is exactly why I'm calling "a level playing field" in PVE a mistake.  Also that wasn't an answer you gave in and of itself, just dancing around the question.  What you're calling "obligation" is the only reason why players bring anything specific to any challenge.  A player can make a "meaningful" decision if we take away the meaning in the weapons themselves.  People DO choose gear for reasons other than fashion frame or power level I don't even see simulor mirages that often maybe once about every three or four parties. 

Just because I got a riven mod for a torid doesn't mean I'm gonna start hauling it around to anything other than a defense.  Congratulations you found a reason other mastery fodder to try out a sniper rifle that was out for years only to probably still come back and complain about "meta" weaponry.

If Riven mods do end up being the "benchmarking mod" that DE has hinted at them being in the future then I give up, all this garbage about "balancing" weapons in pve will have officially killed the weapon variety in the game for me.  Next stop let's allow the player pick from a pool of all warframe powers so no frame "outperforms" another.  What people are calling for when it comes to "balance" in PVE isn't fair challenge it's the systematic destruction of individuality in this game.

 

[Arniox]

18 hours ago, Noobverest said:

I can't be creative if there's a limit on my creativity.

exactly.

[Vox_Preliator]

Honestly, the cap is about the only aspect of Rivens I agree with.

Were it a well-made system, I would welcome a cap because it would encourage me to focus on the handful of weapons I really like using without any pressure in the slightest to collect more just for the sake of collecting, and no pressure to collect ones for "the best" weapons because Rivens were stated to level the playing field of weapon effectiveness a bit.

It's not even close to a well-made system and falls short on just about every mark, though, so it's just another unnecessarily limiting bit.

[SenorClipClop]

34 minutes ago, Irorone said:

So basically you'd pick based on fashion which is exactly why I'm calling "a level playing field" in PVE a mistake.

No, with the right Riven mod, I could pick something other than one of a tiny handful of weapons considered "god-tier" in a steeply terraced weapon meta. It's not about picking based on looks, it's about being able to pick a multitude of different weapons without sacrificing a large chunk of overall effectiveness. I don't have a problem with a meta -- gamers naturally find the most efficient solutions to problems. But now we can use Riven mods to take a Gorgon to where before only a Soma could go.

37 minutes ago, Irorone said:

Just because I got a riven mod for a torid doesn't mean I'm gonna start hauling it around to anything other than a defense.  Congratulations you found a reason other mastery fodder to try out a sniper rifle that was out for years only to probably still come back and complain about "meta" weaponry.

Of course it's still important to make conscious decisions about what weapons you bring along. If you're dealing with hoards of enemies, bring AoE or a high fire-rate, that whole biz. I'm excited for tackling high-level content with a larger pool of weapons, where loadout choices can be effecctively based on damage output and other aspects of the weapon, not just fiercely disparate levels of damage.

In a nutshell, we get to play high-level content with more of the weapon roster. I can't see how that's a bad thing.

[Irorone]

18 minutes ago, SenorClipClop said:

No, with the right Riven mod, I could pick something other than one of a tiny handful of weapons considered "god-tier" in a steeply terraced weapon meta. It's not about picking based on looks, it's about being able to pick a multitude of different weapons without sacrificing a large chunk of overall effectiveness. I don't have a problem with a meta -- gamers naturally find the most efficient solutions to problems. But now we can use Riven mods to take a Gorgon to where before only a Soma could go.

Of course it's still important to make conscious decisions about what weapons you bring along. If you're dealing with hoards of enemies, bring AoE or a high fire-rate, that whole biz. I'm excited for tackling high-level content with a larger pool of weapons, where loadout choices can be effecctively based on damage output and other aspects of the weapon, not just fiercely disparate levels of damage.

In a nutshell, we get to play high-level content with more of the weapon roster. I can't see how that's a bad thing.

So in effect yes.  Your whole thing about how certain weapons are OP and others aren't (despite the fact that you can do freaking pluto with a basic skana) and rivens "fixing" that is pretty much by definition homogenizing weapons of the same category, wait scratch that TIER not category.  Than what is it based if it's not on looks or stats then hmmmm >_>.  There is a broad spectrum of weapons in the game people just gravitate towards what works for them.  Your whole point on rivens being a "tier smasher" was literally the idea of anti-meta.

Yet shouldn't I have that option?  Cuz that's what you've been arguing is that tiers of weapons shouldn't lock you from content which they didn't even before riven.  Mods that already existed could multiply a weapons stats by ten if not more if you spec right.  Yet people are so focused on curbstomping on the tonkors and somas of the game they don't realize the reason many weapons have fallen to the wayside isn't purely because of stats but as much if not more so because they didn't bring anything unique to the table.  Yet that's what riven mods won't affect at the end of the day, making a weapon unique.

Nothing stopped you from using that content at higher levels to begin with, except OTHER PEOPLE you likely wouldn't have had fun playing along side anyway.  Hell a lato only raid party would've actually have been bragging rights right now instead it'll be reduced to "oh you got rivens".

These are the reasons people naysay rivens

HEAVILY rng locked progression.

They provide NOTHING new other than supposedly "balancing" weapons.  No unique affixes at all.

Are nothing more than a resource sink for a NEW resource instead of the stockpiles we already have.

Will be the plaything of "balancing" forseeably for the next 3-12 months.

 

Reasons why people "white knight" rivens

"balance"

"it's new"

 

Also just watched devstream 83 welp been with this game for 3+ years and this will be the first time I go into "content watch" mode where I'm gonna do nothing but login, check for patch notes, and like groundhog day probably repeat till there's signs of "a new day".  Cuz "balance" has just overtaken content as a priority for DE.

Edited November 19, 2016 by Irorone

[Lost_Cartographer]

DE wants us to get Riven mods to use on underused equipment.

-> Sticks them behind a game mode that demands top tier equipment.

--> And rewards them as an RNG reward.

---> That RNG's onto weapons I may or may not give a $#!% about.

 

I think they forgot the part where by the time One can USE a Riven mod, One will have an idea of what weapons they do or don't like... maybe.  Provided One didn't rank them up wearing them on their hip or back while the three other Tenno in the cell dominated everything around them.  And if they DID consider that possibility... then they should realize their weapon usage problems run deeper than because they lack power.

'Fraid I'm just not interested in the system unless they render riven mods easier to get or introduce a trade system that doesn't involve organizing face time with others and paying their exhorbitant prices.

[Hypernaut1]

1. Maybe they could tie the limit to MR

3. If you are at the max, and only want to keep the meta, then the Riven mod system is not for you

[Irorone]

3 minutes ago, Hypernaut1 said:

1. Maybe they could tie the limit to MR

3. If you are at the max, and only want to keep the meta, then the Riven mod system is not for you

I just want uniqueness in my weapons not constant balance bickering, which rivens still isn't gonna provide.  Also tieing riven strength to "meta" is literally the same as saying that a mod will change strength based on how POPULAR a weapon is >_>.

[LeaserResael]

There are more than 200 weapons on the game, most of them are on the "bad" side, so if they want to encourage creativity, putting a cap on the total amount makes absolutely no sense. I don't know why would they think it's a good thing...

[Irorone]

1 minute ago, LeaserResael said:

There are more than 200 weapons on the game, most of them are on the "bad" side, so if they want to encourage creativity, putting a cap on the total amount makes absolutely no sense. I don't know why would they think it's a good thing...

The cap is more for storage space on all the possible random rolls.  The "creativity" is a whole other can of worms.

[SenorClipClop]

2 hours ago, Irorone said:

Your whole point on rivens being a "tier smasher" was literally the idea of anti-meta.

That is not a point I made. I don't have any huge issue with the meta, but I don't want to see it controlling the game.

The way Warframe's damage system works, with mods giving additive percent bonuses based on a weapon's base stats, turn minor differences in weapons at base values into huge differences when the weapons are modded. Without mods, the Stradavar and the Soma are pretty comparable; with mods, the Stradavar pales in comparison. The 15% crit chance difference becomes much greater and thus the Stradavar is all but discarded by the entire player base after level 50. And the issue is that if we try to upgrade the Stradavar with better mods, the Soma can still take the exact same mods and widen that effectiveness gap further. We shouldn't be seeing this happen. There have been attempted fixes in the past to limited success, with additions of Syndicate weapon mods and the like. While some of these have become pretty successful, they often come under fire for being "band-aid" mods, the "mandatory" use of a mod slot in order to bring a weapon up to even nearly the same level as others similar weapons, and even then they don't always get the job done.

I want to see more weapons viable, not for everything per se, but at least having semi-common situations where they are among the best options. If Rifle X is better than Rifle Y in some situations but the reverse is true in other situations, our choice of rifle actually effects the game and feels meaningful.

If one Assault Rifle is hands-down better than six other Assault Rifles in every situation, that's a serious balance issue that needs fixing. If this kind of thinking is "anti-meta", then yes, I am anti-meta.

The reason I am interested in the Riven system and believe it holds potential is because of two distinct elements: every mod is unique, and every mod is locked to just one species of weapon. If I get a dope RMod for the Strad that, let's say, boosts its Crit Damage, it might just be able to have equal effecitveness in some situations as the Soma. The difference between this and a regular mod? I can't put this mod on the Soma and have it get even stupider levels of Crit damage, leaving my Strad to gather dust. This may sound like a "bandaid" mod, but if used in late game like Rivens are designed for, every weapon I can get a Mod for will probably have a Riven on it anyways, since they boost more than one stat. (And as long as I don't get too bad a negative stat, Bob's yer uncle.)

I'm also interested to see how this will effect individualized builds, since every mod is unique. There's a good chance for players to grind and trade and try to work out the best possible thing just like is done in every video game, but in the meanwhile we might just end up seeing builds that vary from person to person based on the contents of that strange purple mod they have. This uniqueness will, with any luck, translate into having more than "one true build" like so many weapons are treated as.

Edited November 19, 2016 by SenorClipClop

[LeaserResael]

36 minutes ago, Irorone said:

The cap is more for storage space on all the possible random rolls.  The "creativity" is a whole other can of worms.

Still, it doesn't make sense. If they wanted to put a cap to limit all the possible random rolls they should put a cap of 500 or 1000. That way people can have 1 or 2 riven mod per weapon if they wanted while mantaining a cap to avoid what you said. 

Putting a 15 cap doens't make any sense at all, at least not when they are telling us that we should be creative with the riven mods...

It makes even less sense when you consider the fact that we can have thousands upon thousands of mods, so I really doubt it has anything to do with that.

[SenorClipClop]

3 minutes ago, LeaserResael said:

Still, it doesn't make sense. If they wanted to put a cap to limit all the possible random rolls they should put a cap of 500 or 1000. That way people can have 1 or 2 riven mod per weapon if they wanted while mantaining a cap to avoid what you said. 

Putting a 15 cap doens't make any sense at all, at least not when they are telling us that we should be creative with the riven mods...

It makes even less sense when you consider the fact that we can have thousands upon thousands of mods, so I really doubt it has anything to do with that.

I think Irorone is referring to storage space on DE's servers (correct me if I'm wrong, though). Regular mods have the same stats across the entirety of the game, so this is easy to store. But since RMods are unique, millions more individual values have to be remembered, which puts a sudden new strain on DE's storage. For now anyway, the limitations are brought by the capability of the existing technology, not by the choice of the devs.

[Irorone]

Just now, SenorClipClop said:

That is not a point I made. I don't have any huge issue with the meta, but I don't want to see it controlling the game.

The way Warframe's damage system works, with mods giving additive percent bonuses based on a weapon's base stats, turn minor differences in weapons at base values into huge differences when the weapons are modded. Without mods, the Stradavar and the Soma are pretty comparable; with mods, the Stradavar pales in comparison. The 15% crit chance difference becomes much greater and thus the Stradavar is all but discarded by the entire player base after level 50. And the issue is that if we try to upgrade the Stradavar with better mods, the Soma can still take the exact same mods and become widen that effectiveness gap further. We shouldn't be seeing this happen. There have been attempted fixes in the past to limited success, with additions of Syndicate weapon mods and the like. While some of these have become pretty successful, they often come under fire for being "band-aid" mods, the "mandatory" use of a mod slot in order to bring a weapon up to even nearly the same level as others similar weapons, and even then they don't always get the job done.

I want to see more weapons viable, not for everything per se, but at least having semi-common situations where they are among the best options. If Rifle X is better than Rifle Y in some situations but the reverse is true in other situations, our choice of rifle actually effects the game and feels meaningful.

If one Assault Rifle is hands-down better than six other Assault Rifles in every situation, that's a serious balance issue that needs fixing. If this kind of thinking is "anti-meta", then yes, I am anti-meta.

The reason I am interested in the Riven system and believe it holds potential is because of two distinct elements: every mod is unique, and every mod is locked to just one species of weapon. If I get a dope RMod for the Strad that, let's say, boosts its Crit Damage, it might just be able to have equal effecitveness in some situations as the Soma. The difference between this and a regular mod? I can't put this mod on the Soma and have it get even stupider levels of Crit damage, leaving my Strad to gather dust. This may sound like a "bandaid" mod, but if used in late game like Rivens are designed for, every weapon I can get a Mod for will probably have a Riven on it anyways, since they boost more than one stat. (And as long as I don't get too bad a negative stat, Bob's yer uncle.)

I'm also interested to see how this will effect individualized builds, since every mod is unique. There's a good chance for players to grind and trade and try to work out the best possible thing just like is done in every video game, but in the meanwhile we might just end up seeing builds that vary from person to person based on the contents of that strange purple mod they have.

It doesn't, people think it does and that's where the real problem lies. Also and I quote "No, with the right Riven mod, I could pick something other than one of a tiny handful of weapons considered "god-tier" in a steeply terraced weapon meta".

Literally this entire paragraph is about how mods are the problem not the weapons >_>.

A LOT of weapons are viable even now people just shuffle them under the "X is OP" argument.

Except that same stradavar riven mod could be rolled for a soma only difference is the "riven disposition" they added.  Nothing unique is being added to the weapons to make people take a second look at them just a math check.

That's because people are comparing a braton and a soma.  One is supposed to be an assault rifle and the other a LMG like the gorgon.  The lack of unique facets in an arsenal this large is the issue not how powerful they are, though people think like that right up until they see a tigris bleed a level 100+ bombard then it's oh no Tigris is OP or a zenistar locking down a point with nothing more than blast/corrosive/primed reach.  Weapon variety is not gonna hit a good point if we just shuffle numbers, PERIOD.

How it will effect individualized builds?  That's an easy one, reroll till you get a "god damage" roll and replace your weakest damage mod on any loadout.  Barring that just replacing what ever mod was ALREADY ON the weapon with its new riven upgrade.  Yay variety >_>.

[Irorone]

Just now, SenorClipClop said:

I think Irorone is referring to storage space on DE's servers (correct me if I'm wrong, though). Regular mods have the same stats across the entirety of the game, so this is easy to store. But since RMods are unique, millions more individual values have to be remembered, which puts a sudden new strain on DE's storage. For now anyway, the limitations are brought by the capability of the existing technology, not by the choice of the devs.

I did mean data storage yes.  There were other facets to it as well but that was the largest tangible reason for it.

[LeaserResael]

8 minutes ago, SenorClipClop said:

I think Irorone is referring to storage space on DE's servers (correct me if I'm wrong, though). Regular mods have the same stats across the entirety of the game, so this is easy to store. But since RMods are unique, millions more individual values have to be remembered, which puts a sudden new strain on DE's storage. For now anyway, the limitations are brought by the capability of the existing technology, not by the choice of the devs.

I know he's talking about technical limitations. Like I said, a cap of 500, 1000 is no different than having 1000 normal mods. Let's say they don't want to suddenly have 500 new slots per player, that's fine. What I'm saying is simply that we should be able to have at least 1 riven mod per weapon on the game. 
That way we can try out most of the "bad" weapons and create diferent builds. With a cap of 15 there's no way we can go around trying all the underused weapons, once I reach the limit of 15 carefully selected riven mods, I won't even bother with the system anymore because I probably won't want to trade or sell them to make space for new ones.
Don't forget this is a pure RNG system, so once you have your 15 mods, why would anyone want to sell their mods just to "try" their luck on new riven mods? That's my point. They can't say "be creative" and limit us so much at the same time. I don't expect them to simply allow us to have millions of different riven mod rolls, but 15 is just too low.

Edited November 19, 2016 by LeaserResael

[Irorone]

7 minutes ago, LeaserResael said:

I know he's talking about technical limitations. Like I said, a cap of 500, 1000 is no different than having 1000 normal mods. Let's say they don't want to suddenly have 500 new slots per player, that's fine. What I'm saying is simply that we should be able to have at least 1 riven mod per weapon on the game. 
That way we can try out most of the "bad" weapons and create diferent builds. With a cap of 15 there's no way we can go around trying all the underused weapons, once I reach the limit of 15 carefully selected riven mods, I won't even bother with the system anymore because I might not want to trade or sell then to make space.
Don't forget this is a pure RNG system, so once you have your 15 mods, why would anyone want to sell their mods just to "try" their luck on new riven mods? That's my point. They can't say "be creative" and limit us so much at the same time. I don't expect them to simply allow us to have millions of different riven mod rolls, but 15 is just too low.

Actually it is, current mods can have up to ten ranks in one or two affixes.

Riven mods can have two to three randomized affixes at eight ranks.  Not sure the exact data difference but it does take more space to store the latter.  Other than that not sure what the sum total data limitations are for DE so I can't say whether or not they could handle an increased riven cap.  Could be they're saving space for new riven classifications like warframe rivens but we don't really know.

It is a bit snide to say be creative when you are only offered a modicum of a canvas and a brush so soaked in kuva and RNG that there's better uses of time for creativity.  Namely the Fan Concept zone of the forums.

Edited November 19, 2016 by Irorone