Hey there DE, I don't want Nitain and Forma in sorties, and here's why

[(PSN)DesecratedFlame]

2 minutes ago, EmptyDevil said:

Whatever helps you sleep at night.

The truth, and yes, not lying to myself helps me sleep at night.

[LeaserResael]

Perfectly said, I couldn't agree more. Sorties are meant for high-lvl players, so those rewards go directly against those players. I have 120 nitains and more than 100 forma bps (always keep 10 crafted for whatever I might want to forma).
Those are not rewards, they are a waste of time for everyone involved, I hope they reconsider it before 19.1.0.

Great post OP!

[Tesseract7777]

Great post. You have my +1. 

[Levi]

MR5

[Snargleflax]

idk what u losers are talking about i just checkt the rewards starts at endo ends at riven just like before

 

[(XBOX)Tanta Cinta]

I'd actually appreciate the focus lens being rewards if they did something to make focus worthwhile.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

NARAMON FTW

[Separius]

11 hours ago, Evanescent said:

snip

 

Just give us tokens at the end of the Sorties and let us decide what we want to purchase with them.

[PrimumMobile]

11 hours ago, Emulad0or said:

I don't mind the Forma, but it could be more than just one... However, the Nitain sure is bad, would be better to keep getting more endo instead of the Nitain 

[_Vortus_]

Sorties do not have that high of a requirement to enter.    Just finish TWW and whatever MR is needed for that.    Dunno what it is, but it isn't high.   So not seeing anything wrong with the reward list.   I do not need most of the list myself, but alot of players do.   Would like to see the Nitain and 2k Endo made into a single optional choice similar to a fissure reward where a player could choose between 2k Endo, 3 Nitain and 2000 Kuva.    Also agree the Forma and Exilus would be better already made and not as bp's.  

As to sorties being endgame.    Unless I am in a hurry and need to end it, been using fun builds for a while.   A maxed set up in a sortie isn't much more difficult then running an ember through an  earth exterminate.   Thats not end game.   

[onieyez]

nitian will become gallium very soon if that happens, only usefull on a few things and then it collects dust in your inventory

if forma becomes an award, it better not be a blueprint, because I have too many that i can't ever finish making them all

kuva, isn't that hard to farm

finishing sortie just to recieve 2k kuva, would be the same as 2k endo

 

[Obviousclone]

man why can't we get sortie endo in the form of ayatan scupltures

 

at least I can sell those for credits/plat instead of just 2k endo.

Edited November 25, 2016 by Obviousclone

[MagPrime]

15 hours ago, Evanescent said:

Before I start, I wish to establish the following:

1)Sortie system is meant as endgame

2)Sortie system is therefore meant for veterans/experienced players or at least advanced players

3)Ergo, Sortie system should cater to veteran/experienced player needs

Now, 

Why 3 Nitain is bad:

Compensation aspect: Chopping and squirming through level 60-100 enemies with sometimes infuriating modifiers is not validated by receiving just 3 Nitain, please do not treat this like normal mission rewards because sorties cannot be repeated for rewards. Receiving x10 amounts would be better, but there is the:

Relevance aspect: At Sortie levels you are likely to have already made everything requiring Nitain, and even if you have not, you are doing alerts from them. There are not enough items to justify a resource as a reward especially because said resource cannot be freely contributed to anything unlike endo, and Sorties are not done to farm resources.

Why Forma is bad:

Compensation aspect: Again, the effort and the reward of 1 forma (even if built) is not proportional. One can far easily farm resources and/or plat to purchase forma packs from the market or set them building, as receiving one from a sortie is the same as setting one to build and getting it-each can only be gotten once per day if built/run. And then there is again the:

Relevance aspect: Forma is a good reward for new players who have need for it, but for sortie level players they are likely to already have a stockpile of forma or have need of far more than just 1, and can far more easily get more forma than a sortie can award in the same timeframe.

 

Both rewards are most beneficial for newer players, yet it is unlikely newer players at the stage where they would be appreciated would be doing sorties.

They are also competing with more relevant rewards to the target player group.

This also applies to 2k endo-it is simply not justifiable to have it stay in the reward pool for the reasons stated above.

 

What would be better and more relevant as rewards (in addition to current pool)?

I would say they should include some of the following:

1) Large Relic packs-Relics are always in demand, and desired.

2) Large Kuva packs-The RNG nature of Kuva ensures they will always be in high demand and always be useful, feeding into the Kuva mods that can also be gained from Sorties

3) Cosmetics and skins- NOTE: NOT EXISTING ONES. When it is said fashionframe is  truly endgame, it is only said half in jest. These will be appreciated more, especially if they are like Ayatan sculptures where they can also be cashed in for a desirable resource and also be used to decorate and add to prestige.

4) Arcanes- The nature of the raids is highly exclusive, and contrary to some people's beliefs I do not believe they would eliminate the running of raids. It would rather encourage them because people would be able to:

a)Get more arcanes than possible before with 3 raids and a sortie, b)Have arcanes be more accessible and therefore having them in grasp, would be more interested in completing them.

A Higher chance for Rivens to be awarded should also be considered.

 

This concludes my statement. Thank you for reasing!

_Evan

 

 

 

Looks like more reasons not to bother with Sorties.

3 Nitain?  Really?  1 Forma?! I'll stick with not bothering, thanks.

If your suggestions were implemented, however, I would be interested in doing Sorties again.  Those actually look like worthwhile rewards.

[Evanescent]

Let me address something: 

1)"sorties are not endgame"

2)"you don't need to be a vet to ezpez sorties" 

3)"newer players still want these rewards"

 

1)It doesn't matter, there is no endgame in warframe. Then why write so in the post? Because they were made to keep veteran players playing and challenge them. Their success or failure in doing so is not the point of this post. They were meant to be "endgame", for players at the stage where they are mostly looking for something to keep them playing, therefore they should cater to those players.

2)As I said above, it doesn't matter. They are not designed for new players, it is not possible to meet the requirement of new players and older players with the same reward pool.

3)Newer players aren't the target audience for these sorties.

 

For reference, please find the devstream around the Sotr update and listen to steve discuss the intent behind the sortie system.

Thank you.

[VonDodo]

17 hours ago, Evanescent said:

Before I start, I wish to establish the following:

 

 

4) Arcanes- The nature of the raids is highly exclusive, and contrary to some people's beliefs I do not believe they would eliminate the running of raids. It would rather encourage them because people would be able to:

a)Get more arcanes than possible before with 3 raids and a sortie, b)Have arcanes be more accessible and therefore having them in grasp, would be more interested in completing them.

 

 

 

Arcane are the ONLY reward for trials.

They dropped in price so much that trials players dropped significantly.

They don't even impact the game to the point in current state most player don't even equip them (just think if you want to change arcane you are trashing months of trials).

-All normal Lor arcanes are too cheap and most Worth nothing.

-They fixed nullifiers, that means NM trials now require competent people and not less than 6 players (you can go in 4 but its adding lot of risk since you can t CC all buttons you risk a spawn of a powerfist/fire eximus ad istant AOE (or a bombard sniping from the distance) to ruin your run without being able to react (consider you need to CC cart area and kill nullifiers because normal mob can kil your cart in seconds even without mistakes).

-You can EASILY lose all progress due to a small mistake of a single player or just due to plain unluck.

-in NM you still mostly get trash.... and rarely an arcane grace that is the only wrthing something nowaday.

-JV is a buggy hell -.- you can easily complete it but its long and unfun. (takes 1 hour most of the time due to bugs)

 

Trails are in a terrible state expecially for what regards risk/reward......So you want to ruin the state of trials even more?

You clealry don't play them if you believe putting arcanes in sorties wouldn t ruin them even more....on the contrary would just remove the ONLY reason (not even value but collection) to run them.

 

 

Why don t we add riven mods and sortie prizes to raids without touching arcanes instead?

I mean raids require much more effort and time and have  lot more risk than sorties....

Edited November 25, 2016 by VonDodo

[Evanescent]

1 hour ago, VonDodo said:

Arcane are the ONLY reward for trials.

They dropped in price so much that trials players dropped significantly.

They don't even impact the game to the point in current state most player don't even equip them (just think if you want to change arcane you are trashing months of trials).

-All normal Lor arcanes are too cheap and most Worth nothing.

-They fixed nullifiers, that means NM trials now require competent people and not less than 6 players (you can go in 4 but its adding lot of risk since you can t CC all buttons you risk a spawn of a powerfist/fire eximus ad istant AOE (or a bombard sniping from the distance) to ruin your run without being able to react (consider you need to CC cart area and kill nullifiers because normal mob can kil your cart in seconds even without mistakes).

-You can EASILY lose all progress due to a small mistake of a single player or just due to plain unluck.

-in NM you still mostly get trash.... and rarely an arcane grace that is the only wrthing something nowaday.

-JV is a buggy hell -.- you can easily complete it but its long and unfun. (takes 1 hour most of the time due to bugs)

 

Trails are in a terrible state expecially for what regards risk/reward......So you want to ruin the state of trials even more?

You clealry don't play them if you believe putting arcanes in sorties wouldn t ruin them even more....on the contrary would just remove the ONLY reason (not even value but collection) to run them.

 

 

Why don t we add riven mods and sortie prizes to raids without touching arcanes instead?

I mean raids require much more effort and time and have  lot more risk than sorties....

If you want 3 nitain for your raid rewards, go ahead....in fact if you want to dilute your reward pool with stuff other than arcanes, step right up  and be my guest.

Your argument only works if you either get them from sorties or raids, and if sorties drop nothing but arcanes.

This is not going to be the case. In raids you are guaranteed an arcane, in sortie you aren't.

People didn't stop doing raids because 'arcanes dropped in price'-in fact the good arcanes are still worth a thousand plat for a set at least. I trade for a significant portion of my weekly playtime, so please don't go pulling that with me. i know what arcanes go for.

They stopped playing because Raids are boring, buggy, and require too much for prep for too little and lock people into specific frames in most of the groups. PUGs simply refuse to accept groupings outside the main comps most of the time.

Challenge? Raids? Difficult? I assume you're talking about CCing the map and stepping on buttons, yeah? The only 'difficult' one is JV, and that's only because it's so convoluted. LoR is a joke.

 Putting them in sorties would encourage them to play sorties. Instead of getting 1 arcane a day, players will have the chance of getting 4 arcanes a say by raiding and doing sorties. It would encourage people with no intention of playing raids to try them out because they would think about completing the set if they get a good arcane.

 The core raiding playerbase, who raid with teams, will benefit, not lose anything. They already raid with maximised setups and efficient teams, they will now get more arcanes by doing sorties as well which are, as you say, so much easier, and it will reward them if nothing else.

Raids still remain the primary source of arcanes, because you get guaranteed arcanes from them.

Players who still play raids don't do it for the arcanes, they do it for the mission. When you know people play it less than conclave, you know something is wrong with it. Raids aren't played less because of difficulty, because raids in other games see a significant chunk of the veteran playtime, they are played less because they aren't fun.

So please, don't bring that argument up. It holds no water, not when raids and arcanes are already in such dire states. The only thing that will change and even then slightly, is the monopoly some have on the trial arcane market. 

[VonDodo]

14 minutes ago, Evanescent said:

.

Your argument only works if you either get them from sorties or raids, and if sorties drop nothing but arcanes.

 

 

I could prove all your facts wrong one by one... but since you clearly didn t try NM lor post fix..... and did just 4 raids in your life in 7 players (and you clearly are too lazy to open wf market and check for arcane prices....also) i'll just answer to the ones that are not related to gameplay you clearly ignore but to your fails at math.

 

Expecially the quoted part:

If 10 guys gets 1/10 things doing a thing they will get 1-2 things.

If 100.000 guys gets 1/100 things they will get about 1000.

Now compare sortie to trials population......

 

Everything else you wrote follows the same faulty logic except its so clear that doesn t need explanations...

Maybe you should try to run a Lor NM after it was fixed because you played 1 in your life with a party of 7 that let one player be carried by others easily :/

But your points sums up: "i wants rewards i don't need* for activities i don't want to do and i don't care if i ruin the almost worthless reward of other players."

 

* that is really important because if they did have any impact on the game except "rewarding trials" i'd totally be in favour to spread them on other activities.

[Evanescent]

41 minutes ago, VonDodo said:

 

I could prove all your facts wrong one by one... but since you clearly didn t try NM lor post fix..... and did just 4 raids in your life in 7 players (and you clearly are too lazy to open wf market and check for arcane prices....also) i'll just answer to the ones that are not related to gameplay you clearly ignore but to your fails at math.

Oh, if you can, I will of course retract my statement. Please, go ahead.

I did do NM LoR, post fix, actually, in fact I did it yesterday, after dropping my first valkyr prime chassis after half an hour of relic crunching.

I used to raid about twiice a week, but jobs and studies don't leave me with much playtime these days. But you should know better, you seem to know what goes on in my life better than me. The only raid I haven't completed is JV, and I don't think I ever will because to this day I haven't found a group willing to run it when I play.

I hope you aren't trying to tell me that the prices for grace, avenger, and energize are at rock bottom? Because if you are, I will take it with a pinch of salt. The other arcanes

never were at the same level of value. If anything, the arcanes mentioned have appreciated.

The only price drops have been the natural ones after more people started running the raids outside the first few weeks.

Quote

 

Expecially the quoted part:

If 10 guys gets 1/10 things doing a thing they will get 1-2 things.

If 100.000 guys gets 1/100 things they will get about 1000.

Now compare sortie to trials population......

You keep forgetting to factor in the 1/10 chance for each of those 10 people to actually get that thing(in this case, the arcane) and then the smaller chance for the arcane to be the one they want, because I never said anywhere that the sorties would guarantee arcanes, just have them in the reward pool.

Quote

 

Everything else you wrote follows the same faulty logic except its so clear that doesn t need explanations...

That is a very easy cop out. Please elaborate if you wish to disprove the point.

Quote

Maybe you should try to run a Lor NM after it was fixed because you played 1 in your life with a party of 7 that let one player be carried by others easily :/

Hahaha!

Quote

But your points sums up: "i wants rewards i don't need* for activities i don't want to do and i don't care if i ruin the almost worthless reward of other players."

Perhaps you would like to take a class in comprehension? Because if I can read my own writing it's boiled down to more of 'I would like the rewards to be things worth running sorties for and am offering suggestions.

Quote

 

* that is really important because if they did have any impact on the game except "rewarding trials" i'd totally be in favour to spread them on other activities.

I find this statement hilarious. Arcanes don't have an impact on gameplay! Really? Perhaps then I was mistaken when I compared an Inaros with arcane grace and one without and found a huge jump in survivability, a build with arcane avenger and one without haveing huge jumps in damage output, or chroma builds without an arcane making and breaking at high levels! They are necessary my dear, for min-maxers. Sure, that's not the whole population, but you cannot deny the importance they have in optimising a build!

Please, it is alright to have a difference in opinion. It is also alright to not agree with suggestions. But it is not alright to approach a discussion from an off-topic point of view, in an aggressive way.

This topic isn't about having arcanes in sorties. It's about removing stuff that are imo not appropriate in the reward pool. You may not agree with it, you may not agree with the suggestions. But so far you have done nothing except focus and adopt a rather aggresive argument on having them in the reward table.

I suggested them, because I thought they would be desirable to players who are mostly done with most of the normal stuff. 

Thank you for your time.

Edited November 25, 2016 by Evanescent
Changed some wording on second thoughts

[--Q--Kyl0Ren]

20 hours ago, Evanescent said:

Before I start, I wish to establish the following:

1)Sortie system is meant as endgame

2)Sortie system is therefore meant for veterans/experienced players or at least advanced players

3)Ergo, Sortie system should cater to veteran/experienced player needs

Now, 

Why 3 Nitain is bad:

Compensation aspect: Chopping and squirming through level 60-100 enemies with sometimes infuriating modifiers is not validated by receiving just 3 Nitain, please do not treat this like normal mission rewards because sorties cannot be repeated for rewards. Receiving x10 amounts would be better, but there is the:

Relevance aspect: At Sortie levels you are likely to have already made everything requiring Nitain, and even if you have not, you are doing alerts from them. There are not enough items to justify a resource as a reward especially because said resource cannot be freely contributed to anything unlike endo, and Sorties are not done to farm resources.

Why Forma is bad:

Compensation aspect: Again, the effort and the reward of 1 forma (even if built) is not proportional. One can far easily farm resources and/or plat to purchase forma packs from the market or set them building, as receiving one from a sortie is the same as setting one to build and getting it-each can only be gotten once per day if built/run. And then there is again the:

Relevance aspect: Forma is a good reward for new players who have need for it, but for sortie level players they are likely to already have a stockpile of forma or have need of far more than just 1, and can far more easily get more forma than a sortie can award in the same timeframe.

 

Both rewards are most beneficial for newer players, yet it is unlikely newer players at the stage where they would be appreciated would be doing sorties.

They are also competing with more relevant rewards to the target player group.

This also applies to 2k endo-it is simply not justifiable to have it stay in the reward pool for the reasons stated above.

 

What would be better and more relevant as rewards (in addition to current pool)?

I would say they should include some of the following:

1) Large Relic packs-Relics are always in demand, and desired.

2) Large Kuva packs-The RNG nature of Kuva ensures they will always be in high demand and always be useful, feeding into the Kuva mods that can also be gained from Sorties

3) Cosmetics and skins- NOTE: NOT EXISTING ONES. When it is said fashionframe is  truly endgame, it is only said half in jest. These will be appreciated more, especially if they are like Ayatan sculptures where they can also be cashed in for a desirable resource and also be used to decorate and add to prestige.

4) Arcanes- The nature of the raids is highly exclusive, and contrary to some people's beliefs I do not believe they would eliminate the running of raids. It would rather encourage them because people would be able to:

a)Get more arcanes than possible before with 3 raids and a sortie, b)Have arcanes be more accessible and therefore having them in grasp, would be more interested in completing them.

A Higher chance for Rivens to be awarded should also be considered.

 

This concludes my statement. Thank you for reasing!

_Evan

 

 

 

Hats off for the detailed description bro.

Just a few queries thought might be more detail than required but just curious, how many relics do u think should be included in the large relic pack and same goes for kuva. But OMG ppl would kill for sortie only cosmetics i mean like if they are tied to what faction the sortie enemy is would be nice also, I mean infested like cosmetics for infested missions and so on( but IMO should have same drop chance as legendary cores else wont be as exclusive). About the arcanes well its a double edged sword, personally i do not want to get  arcane deflections / resistance etc from sorties, would be more annoying since i get them from raids and am already disappointed =.=

[Evanescent]

1 minute ago, --Q--Kyl0Ren said:

Hats off for the detailed description bro.

Just a few queries thought might be more detail than required but just curious, how many relics do u think should be included in the large relic pack and same goes for kuva. But OMG ppl would kill for sortie only cosmetics i mean like if they are tied to what faction the sortie enemy is would be nice also, I mean infested like cosmetics for infested missions and so on( but IMO should have same drop chance as legendary cores else wont be as exclusive). About the arcanes well its a double edged sword, personally i do not want to get  arcane deflections / resistance etc from sorties, would be more annoying since i get them from raids and am already disappointed =.=

I'm not sure, because it's easy to toe the line between greedy and proper compensation. So I turn the question to you before answering: how many relics do you think is fair for doing a sortie?

Personally I think a good compensation for time is a batch of 3-4 relic packs: effectively 15-20 relics, with common rare and uncommon ones being mixed in randomly.

As always, it's a loose suggestion: maybe they could have 10-15 relics, but randomise them to be in various states of refinement such as flawless and radiant. I think that's better actually, having packs of rafined relics.

I was aware of the arcane issue as I wrote, but I don't have a clear idea as to how to solve it. On one hand if sorties gave only the good stuff in arcanes it would actually kind of choke the raid players down. A part of me thinks that's what would happen, but the other part of me thinks if they made it a rareish reward it would not be such  problem, because of the chance of it dropping, and the sorties being once per day would justify it. Sorties don't stop people running raids after all, and as I keep saying, raids+sorties mean more arcanes than just sorties or raids. People running them will keep running them, and have more arcanes between them into the bargain.

Yes, it would suck to have arcane warmth after doing a sortie. It would suck the most because no-one would buy it, you wouldn't want to use it, and you couldn't get rid of it. The solution would be for DE to make them all worth having, but at the time of writing in terms of options I am severely limited in ideas.

[(PSN)Magician_NG]

How could DE make tenno happy?  (I'm officially a broken record, because I repeat the same thing in posts regarding sorties)

Where's the token system mentioned back in devstream 66?

Let tenno earn nitain from sorties in a couple or few days.  Check.

Let tenno earn legendary cores from sorties in a couple or few months.  Check.

Reduce the grind?  Nope, DE won't do that.

[VonDodo]

46 minutes ago, Evanescent said:

I did do NM LoR, post fix, actually, in fact I did it yesterday, after dropping my first valkyr prime chassis after half an hour of relic crunching

No you didn't

http://wf.christx.tw/search.php?id=evanescent

46 minutes ago, Evanescent said:

I used to raid about twiice a week, but jobs and studies don't leave me with much playtime these days. But you should know better, you seem to know what goes on in my life better than me. The only raid I haven't completed is JV, and I don't think I ever will because to this day I haven't found a group willing to run it when I play.

No you didn t :)

I don't now anything about you or your life... i just can read game stats.

http://wf.christx.tw/search.php?id=evanescent

 

46 minutes ago, Evanescent said:

I hope you aren't trying to tell me that the prices for grace, avenger, and energize are at rock bottom? Because if you are, I will take it with a pinch of salt. The other arcanes

I am not saying it. Warframe.market is saying it. Seems you don't need there are several sites on wich people can actually check various stats

 

46 minutes ago, Evanescent said:

You keep forgetting to factor in the 1/10 chance for each of those 10 people to actually get that thing(in this case, the arcane) and then the smaller chance for the arcane to be the one they want, because I never said anywhere that the sorties would guarantee arcanes, just have them in the reward pool.

You are really bad at math aren t you?

I used raid 1/10 and sorties 1/100 thus i did factor that. Maybe not accurately, but it was to prove a point and it served right there.

 

 

Seems i can't insert more quotes no more ._. but i think is enough already.

I'd like to get that shiny pvp syandana also but i know it wouldn be fair to pvp players.

Edited November 25, 2016 by VonDodo

[--Q--Kyl0Ren]

2 hours ago, Evanescent said:

I'm not sure, because it's easy to toe the line between greedy and proper compensation. So I turn the question to you before answering: how many relics do you think is fair for doing a sortie?

Personally I think a good compensation for time is a batch of 3-4 relic packs: effectively 15-20 relics, with common rare and uncommon ones being mixed in randomly.

As always, it's a loose suggestion: maybe they could have 10-15 relics, but randomise them to be in various states of refinement such as flawless and radiant. I think that's better actually, having packs of rafined relics.

I was aware of the arcane issue as I wrote, but I don't have a clear idea as to how to solve it. On one hand if sorties gave only the good stuff in arcanes it would actually kind of choke the raid players down. A part of me thinks that's what would happen, but the other part of me thinks if they made it a rareish reward it would not be such  problem, because of the chance of it dropping, and the sorties being once per day would justify it. Sorties don't stop people running raids after all, and as I keep saying, raids+sorties mean more arcanes than just sorties or raids. People running them will keep running them, and have more arcanes between them into the bargain.

Yes, it would suck to have arcane warmth after doing a sortie. It would suck the most because no-one would buy it, you wouldn't want to use it, and you couldn't get rid of it. The solution would be for DE to make them all worth having, but at the time of writing in terms of options I am severely limited in ideas.

Yup i understand. Personally i would like 10 relics as a reward.( 5 common , 3 uncommon , 2 rares). But this is just a suggestion at this point. As for kuva im going to hold back and see what the cool down is on the missions with the upcoming update. Regarding arcanes , the only solution is DE buff's the useless arcanes. I mean deflection / resistance are rare drops from raids atm. Even if they did introduce it in sorties and we get 'rare' arcane rewards its a problem cause we will end up with useless stuff. 

[(PSN)RenovaKunumaru]

I do sorties every day. Add 3 nitain and 1 forma as a reward and I'll never do them again. 

I'm so serious, this is the worst possible reward EVER. I rather have Endo.

[(XBOX)Knight Raime]

I 100% agree with all of that.  I personally still need nitan.  But i'm not going to keep my butthole clenched just for 3.  They really just need to make alerts drop more than 1 per alert.  or increase the amount of alerts that have it.  and forma already comes from enough places.  I fully support them adding in kuvra packs and relic packs.  But most of all the arcanes.  DE PLS.

[friendofvampires]

Now i don't run raids and rarely run chore-ties. A suggestion I saw awhile ago relating to arcanes and sorties was pull all common arcanes from raids, and put them as a potential drop in sorties, as a sort of "intro to arcanes" and have the rare and uncommon arcanes stay in raids. That way a player naturally progresses through starchart, to the quests, into sorties, and then to raids, marking a clear line of progression rather than just a hodgepodge of varying level stuff