Ash Revisited Feedback Megathread

[ashrah]

would be nice if ash teleport have free aim...so u can teleport on any place under range....i little tested bladestorm and its fun really...max efficancy is really recomanded

[Konachibi]

Here's a suggestion for an improvement over Ash's Bladestorm rework:

Instead of standing still marking targets once it's activated, make it a channelling ability, similar to Ember's World On Fire or Valkyr's Hysteria.  

Whilst the ability is being channelled, Ash moves at a slightly slower movement speed, then pressing the melee attack (Default: E) on an enemy will make Ash teleport to and perform a finisher on the enemy, along with a couple of Ash clones performing the same on any enemies within a small radius (E.g/ 5 metres).  Whilst this would be similar to Ash's Fatal Teleport, the added bonus of it being a fast activating channeled skill and the addition of clones would make it appear more like an ult, along with offering more interactivity, allowing Ash to move around, swiftly remove groups of targets and avoid being locked in 'shakey ultimate cam' for more than a couple of seconds, and prevent other players being annoyed by there being a bunch of invulnerable marked targets filling the room.

[kleerr2]

6 minutes ago, Foefaller said:

Except... it isn't? Marking a single target with BS has a base cost of 15, 10 if you have any form of invisibility, and Teleport has a cost of 25.

Anyway. I like the feel of the new Bladestorm. Yes I know it's a nerf, but it's more fun for me this way... except for the lack of clones. I mean, I get that we're not going to be hitting 18 targets every time we press 4 anymore, but with no clones anything more than 3 you might as well not bother because your teammates will kill the rest.

Ok, wait! What do you mean ''with no clones''?! The clones are still there, ash attacks each marked enemy once, clones will attack enemies with more than one mark, after ash moves on to the next enemy...

Edited November 26, 2016 by kleerr2

[Dohako]

SHURIKEN: Inaros' Desiccation. Add a 25% lifesteal mechanic from total initial damage.

 

SMOKESCREEN: Ivara's Cloak Arrow. 12sec UNAFFECTED by power duration. 6m radius. Aggro enemies inside the smoke clouds to be open to finishers. Ash is not invisible.

 

TELEPORT: Fix all the bugs.

 

BLADESTORM: Oberon's Smite. Mark an enemy and 3 clones appear to attack that mark enemy and every enemy within a 12m radius. Ash DOES NOT go into cinematic mode.

[DatDarkOne]

16 minutes ago, Cubewano said:

Just because you don't feel like doing something doesn't make it less real or an option, I'm just making sure you knew that the ability to assassinate single targets with Ash was an option well before this change came into play. If you have other more valid arguments though then go ahead and share them, that's the whole purpose of this thread. 

Not arguing really.  Just stating what I like about the changes, and how they give me more interest in playing Ash instead of considering him as MR fodder like I previously did.  This is completely subjective.  I just felt that previously he was kinda boring.  Now he's more interesting to me.  That's a plus.  The Deluxe Skin doesn't hurt either.  :D

[Foefaller]

10 minutes ago, kleerr2 said:

Ok, wait! What do you mean ''with no clones''?! The clones are still there, ash attacks each marked enemy once, clones will attack enemies with more than one mark, after ash moves on to the next enemy...

I must have not noticed, because very few things outside of sorties and raids survive more than one Bladestorm attack.

Besides, that doesn't solve the problem that the clones were created for in the first place, which is how long Bladestorm takes when you have to personally shank Every. Single. Target. Even if you only have to do it the first time 'round.

[rudman88]

cant they just tweak the bladestorm to

1. only target thigns you can see ins creen

2. it auto target those in screen

somethign like mesa.

 

targeting it, making circle around it so can be marked 3 times

find 6 target,

is very troublesome

 

[indivius]

Sad thing is that this rework is mostly focusing on non Ash players or Asholes. The marking systems fixes the press 4 to win problem, but there is still vomit cam for example. Maybe just implement something, that is already sometimes happening in the Simulacrum, let Ash only perform the Animation for the 1st Mark on targets, end the Animation but let his clones perform the other Marks while Ash can run araound again. People who like the animations will be pleased, as they are not removed and people who don't will have to deal with less of them. You might as well change Bladestorm completely differently, but it would be nice to see some at least some changes to the current Bladestorm "rework".

[Cubewano]

18 minutes ago, Foefaller said:

Except... it isn't? Marking a single target with BS has a base cost of 15, 10 if you have any form of invisibility, and Teleport has a cost of 25.

Anyway. I like the feel of the new Bladestorm. Yes I know it's a nerf, but it's more fun for me this way... except for the lack of clones. I mean, I get that we're not going to be hitting 18 targets every time we press 4 anymore, but with no clones anything more than 3 you might as well not bother because your teammates will kill the rest.

Except you wouldn't be using this method on a target squishy enough to one shot with a single Bladestorm mark, so you'll likely be mutli marking them instead, which after the first mark would be a higher cost than tp, and all the while also consuming more time, the invis argument doesn't work since what energy you are saving is being spent on going invisible in the first place. (the further into the game you get the more practical fatal tp becomes)

I'm glad though that at least you are enjoying the rework, I didn't at all mind the idea of Bladestorm being nerfed, rather I was welcoming it, so long as the ability become more pleasant to use, but I don't at all feel that has been achieved with these changes. The targeting mini-game prior to use feels very out of place and disruptive to the flow of combat (flinging my mouse wildly about every once in a while is not what I consider good flow), and while at least DE finally got rid of that tragic stab loop that came from hitting bulky enemies the major problem of having that stab animation at all wasn't solved. I didn't like using Bladestorm before, and I like it even less now. 

2 minutes ago, DatDarkOne said:

Not arguing really.  Just stating what I like about the changes, and how they give me more interest in playing Ash instead of considering him as MR fodder like I previously did.  This is completely subjective.  I just felt that previously he was kinda boring.  Now he's more interesting to me.  That's a plus.  The Deluxe Skin doesn't hurt either.  :D

Except it wasn't really a change, since as noted that was an option before. Again your unwillingness to use said option doesn't invalidate its existence. Glad that you for some reason find Ash more enjoyable now, and I hope future iterations of him won't take that away. 

[kleerr2]

3 minutes ago, Foefaller said:

I must have not noticed, because very few things outside of sorties and raids survive more than one Bladestorm attack.

Besides, that doesn't solve the problem that the clones were created for in the first place, which is how long Bladestorm takes when you have to personally shank Every. Single. Target. Even if you only have to do it the first time 'round.

I just wanted to point out that the clones are still there, carry on...

2 minutes ago, indivius said:

Sad thing is that this rework is mostly focusing on non Ash players or Asholes. The marking systems fixes the press 4 to win problem, but there is still vomit cam for example. Maybe just implement something, that is already sometimes happening in the Simulacrum, let Ash only perform the Animation for the 1st Mark on targets, end the Animation but let his clones perform the other Marks while Ash can run araound again. People who like the animations will be pleased, as they are not removed and people who don't will have to deal with less of them. You might as well change Bladestorm completely differently, but it would be nice to see some at least some changes to the current Bladestorm "rework".

Sure enough there is alot of feedback now, and alot of good suggestions were made in these 22 pages, there are many ways to either give QoL or overall change the ability(which i doubt will happen), in the end its up to DE to decide... the main complain i think is the animation of bladestorm which De ultimately did not adress, but lets see...

[rudman88]

I seriously want to know, which community decide this rework.

i would also want to know is there any polls regarding this rework

 

This rework is much more worst than mesa nerf

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

There are many great ideas. Hope DE does some implementation of them and dumps the BS rework please. DE u listened to us about Uni vacuum, please listen to us about Ash BS rework . Thank you 

Edited November 26, 2016 by (XB1)FCastle74

[TheSteelRat]

40 minutes ago, Foefaller said:

Except... it isn't? Marking a single target with BS has a base cost of 15, 10 if you have any form of invisibility, and Teleport has a cost of 25.

Anyway. I like the feel of the new Bladestorm. Yes I know it's a nerf, but it's more fun for me this way... except for the lack of clones. I mean, I get that we're not going to be hitting 18 targets every time we press 4 anymore, but with no clones anything more than 3 you might as well not bother because your teammates will kill the rest.

 

Fatal teleport augment refunds half the cost if you kill with the finisher.  Also, unlike Bladestorm, it has the added affect of improving your mobility and doing stealth finishers

[CTanGod]

The real problem right now is that if I'm marking enemies for my Bladestorm I could just as well apply Ignis/Ogris/Tonkor/Zarr/Penta/Simulor/Sonicor/Staticor/Exalted Blade to said targetting area and it would probably be better and more interactive.
 

Why did we have to "fix" something that wasn't broken? Just because it wasn't very interactive or engaging doesn't mean it wasn't good, now the only effective AOE frames we have are Mirage (with Simulor) and Equinox (but not for really high things because it will take ages just to kill them to store the dmg).

If you still insist on this stupid targetting system then rework Shuriken into a 12m cone that dmgs all enemies in it while stunning them and marking them if we are in Bladestorm targetting mode.

[Foefaller]

12 minutes ago, -CM-Kinnison said:

Fatal teleport augment refunds half the cost if you kill with the finisher.  Also, unlike Bladestorm, it has the added affect of improving your mobility and doing stealth finishers

Ah, forgot about the 50% refund. That would mean only a stealth marked (*if* you were invis from an energy-free source, like Naramon or a Huras) would be cheaper... and only if you killed the target with the first stabbing.

[Snowmech]

I think Disaster is a good description of the change to blade storm. I am all for interaction, but such a massive nerf... why? This is just horrible, really really horrible. Add a time stop, freeze your team mates completely and allow ash to target at ease... Or revert back to old ash. Stop team mates from killing targets, or revert back to old ash.

Ash was a great frame... this is just beyond comprehension... why.. why? Blade Storm is useless now. My team mates are dying, I can no longer help. I need to react fast, well not any more. 

 

[ENGINEEEEER]

I think the rework turned out pretty decently but I still have two concerns

1. Shuriken still sucks. I didn't use it once in my playtests today because for less energy cost I can bladestorm an enemy or fatal teleport them. To make it valuable it'd need to be a fan of shurikens and have a quick casting bonus like landslide, ripline, etc. 

2.  New bladestorm is better but my only concern is that at higher difficulties you get bogged down in bladestorm for a while and it breaks the rhythm and speed of the game. Except against the easiest enemies, you're stuck watching the game play itself. 

As many have suggested the ability would be a lot more freeing if shadow clones did the killing. This would also justify the comparatively higher energy cost relative to the previous bladestorm. It may also make sense if the clones killed a little slower for balance and to provide some CC. 

And thinking about it comparatively, it's not that much greater than other abilities. 

-Frost can nuke and stun enemies for a good deal of time for only a couple second cast time.   
-Ember  and day equinox have a tiny cast times and can do whatever they want while her 4 kills things.   
-Mesa is locked in place but is in full control of aim and can kill continuously.   
-Banshee is worse off currently but everyone agrees sound quake is in a bad place without resonating quake.   

My two credits. 

Thanks for all the great work as always!

[NeoLeijona]

A rework, and Bladestorm animation is still tied to melee weapon attack speed, but damage isn't? WTF?

If you want to play Ash, you still can't make a full damage melee weapon that doesn't induce carpal tunnel why actually using melee effectively (ex. Spoiled Strike makes the ulti worse).

Either remove the weapon's effect on Bladestorm or take everything into account.

[WarGrylls]

Things that can be put in to improve upon Ash's rework can include but not limited to:

*250ms of i-frame post blade storm. the enemy/ies know where your position before you recognize that blade storm is done with and you are left standing to die should you have casted/set off BLADE STORM while invisible through any sources.

*either +1 shuriken for 3 total or 4 shurikens if there are at least 4 targets available. The skill has very poor benefit to the toolkit not looking at the augment that can strip armor off in one keystroke.. but of only one to 2 enemies(really?).

*speed up the base animations for blade storm by maybe +1/6th or +1/5th since we now manually mark targets, and depending on weapon attack speed is a bit of a drag really.

*Fatal Teleport needs to be more accurate in executing the finisher attack. Seen it try but miss its mark a few times but fixing it will help.

 

Things I've done or am happy to have around to better my gameplay and frame's survival:

*Zenurik Focus to allow for more marking possible, from what I believe I experienced, passed my energy cap's max.

*Opening up Blade Storm and smokescreen before reviving a teammate, and then setting it off afterwards made for a fun retreat away from the team member. Don't like dying because Ash was caught in the crossfire of something.

*Playing with my Smokescreen 100% on and Blade Storm always in marking mode made camera spinning for targets a small issue at worst.

edit:*mobile smokescreen... enough said.

 

Overall:

After a session re-leveling ash prime for his 1st forma due reading about his rework, he is definitely no longer my most disliked frame in a co-op setting and with my benchmark for "a viable frame" currently being surviving lv100+ enemies and ready for more while with others and alone, and he certainly passed while not being fully modded and the 80min survival run of fun leveling, thank you "unemployed2" for sticking around and carrying me in kills btw(1562 to 1990.. if only air >.<), gave me an actual positive response in being an assassin warframe.
 

 

lv21 setup *maxed unless said rank, italics for polarized*: Vitality, Primed Flow, Primed Continuity, Narrow Minded(r5), Stretch, Intensify, Streamline, Steel Charge  

*Missing Augment of situational choice and Power Drift

*Arcane Scorpion Ash Helm and Zenurik Focus

*Don't have the plat for an arcane trickery on a syandana, but may not need it.

Edited November 26, 2016 by WarGrylls

[Arkvold]

One thing I'd appreciate, and it's very minor, is a visual effect to remind you that you're in Bladestorm's marking mode.

Maybe a red-tinted (or energy-color-tinted) filter over the screen, like you get with Rift Walk or Operator Void Mode (Spoilers; Highlight to Reveal previous), in order to remind you that you're about to launch Bladestorm.

[Vrgolin]

Okay so this is my little grain of sand to the feedback thread, maybe it has already been said before but I think it's important.

1. I'm so pleased with the rework and I think the marking systems makes you think and pick your targets more tactically, nevertheless, since it is more energy expensive, I think the damage that Bladestorm deals should be buffed a bit. Nevertheless, I'm really not pleased that the core mechanic of Bladestorm was left as it was. We really don't need to be stuck on an animation everytime we use it; the rework made Ash more agile and less static when using Bladestorm, and the goal was to make the ability more dynamic, and that was a great step in the right direction, but to be just "spectators" of the finishers Ash deals is not fun at all, at least something better would be to mark enemies and send our clones to kill them.

2. The changes to smokebomb are awesome because now you don't have to be stuck in place to cast it, you can now do it on the run or in the air without loosing any of your momentum, buuuut, since the duration of smokebomb is a lot less than our other invisibility abilities I would suggest to make it recastable, and this would greatly benefit the stun that it deals when casting.

3. I think Shuriken is a really good ability but it could use some changes, and I have a couple of ideas to make it even better:

- Taping the button throws the usual 2 shurikens, buuut holding the button makes you stack up shurikens to a max of 6, obviously with an increased energy cost.

-Taping the button throws the usual 2 shurikens, but holding it and then realeasing it allows you to throw a shuriken a lot bigger and also more damaging shuriken with innate punchthrough that seeks various enemies.

And that's it! :D

[(PSN)Stealth_Cobra]

I ... Actually like the new bladestorm...

This is coming from an Ash main, who clocked roughly 900 hours playing ASH when you combine the time on PC and PS4.

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I think outright haters have a narrow vision here. First of all, Ash is one of the rare frames in the game that have four useful abilities that work and compliment each other. Most of the frames have filler/useless abilities, but Ash's toolkit is really strong and varied.

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- Seeking Shuriken strips armor completely if you have 145% Power Str + Corrosive Projection, making it a great armor stripping + bleed attack that homes and costs next to no energy. Against bosses and highly scaled enemies, it's a lifesaver and your team will love you for it.

- Smoke Screen's main issue, the fact that you had to cast it while stationary, was fixed. It has a cool AOE stun, can be shared to four teammates with Smoke Shadows and has a more than adequate duration (somewhat easy to get 20 seconds). It has considerable advantages compared to other frame's invisibilities (loki colors the screen yellow and mutes the sound while Ivara does the same, but also forces you to walk extremely slow and roll everywhere).

- Teleport is a one hit kill move on pretty much every enemy. For extremely high level enemies, you can equip Fatal Teleport and / or Covert Lethality. It's a great mobility spell, coupled with a great move to kill that pesky bombad or other high damage dealing foe.

- That leaves Bladestorm, which in it's past iteration was somewhat broken. You basically jumped in a room, targeted a single enemy and watched 18 nearby enemies die trough walls and all over the place. I'll discuss the rework in the next section.

******************************************************************

Rework Discussion

******************************************************************

Yes, it's a nerf. I'll give you that. We went from a guaranteed 3 mark on 18 enemies to a system where you must manually mark enemies...

That said... Bladestorm Marking can now be kept on at all times. This means you're marking enemies passively by simply exploring the map and surveying your surroundings. In a sense ,you're playing your ash , going invisibile and killing things regularly, and when you feel like you have enough marked enemies... Boom, Bladestorm.

I really like the dynamic aspect of it all, you're playing Ash , doing stuff and marking enemies, and you have the choice... Am I going to shuriken that guy, or should I one hit teleport to him, should I shoot him with a bow, should I go invisible and hit him with a melee weapon, or should I survey a whole room and kill everyone simultaneously using bladestorm.

All in all, yes, it's a nerf, but I think Ash is more fun to play now. Then again, I was never a Bladestorm spammer.

*********************************************************************

Suggestions

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* Perhaps bladestorm marking could be always on by default... I find it kinda tedious to have to reactiate it after each bladestorm.

* Shurikens should automatically 3 mark enemies hit by them. That way you could jump in a room, shoot a few shurikens around a corner and get kill streak going. Maybe add one or two more shurikens.

* Perhaps make it so that ash automatically marks enemies that are near him... Like let's say you jump into a crowd of infested enemies... You would gain one mark per three seconds you stay inside the group. Would allow ash to basically jump into a crowded space while cloaked, wait a few seconds ,then unleash his rage without having to flail his camera around like an epileptic pumpkin.

* A bladestorming ash should not be spotted by cameras. I noticed in the Kuva fortress Spy mission, when I targeted an enemy that was walking under a camera with my bladestorm, it triggered the alarm during the bladestorm animation. Bladestorm should not get you spotted... Especially if you can mark an enemy , who then moves into the line of sight of a camera without you noticing it. Grante,d you should probably go invisible before bladestorming to avoid said issue, but I wish it was never an issue in the first place.

* Maybe a slight damage buff to compensate for the fact you target less enemies and have less consistent DPS... Would also make it less imperative to carry much power strenght, which would leave more room for duration.

 

************************************

All and all, kudos for the rework. I was one of the most feverish antagonist when I heard a rework was coming, and I actually enjoy what you did with my fav frame.

Edited November 26, 2016 by (PS4)Stealth_Cobra

[DEATHLOK]

5 hours ago, Melkia said:

I'm gonna go straight to the point, BladeStorm in his current state has to go: now it's less braindead, but is clunky as hell. Here are 2 ideas i have for the skill. I don't know if they are good or not, but they would still be infinitely better than what we have now:

 

1- An actual storm of blades, a channeled Slash damage AoE that lets you move at a very slow pace and staggers enemies. Something like a mix of Banshee Soundquake and Inaros Sandstorm. Of course the AoE would be much smaller than Banshee.

2- A melee multishot, another channeled ability that allows each one of your melee strikes to trigger something like 3 to 5 blade attacks, maybe even have the blades floating behind ash while they're not attacking.

These are great ideas.

Granted, they would take actual man hours to develop. I don't know what payoff there would be to convince the suits this deserves man hours.

But the hack job just done is a steaming pile of petty bitterness and animosity.

Blade storm should be reworked as a completely new power in the spirit of the name, the Warframe, and the associated powers of other Warframes. A burst AoE, a DoT AoE, or a melee boost are all great ideas.

I would hope great ideas might get some attention over there these days, that it's not all about Boosters and Access Packs.

Edited November 26, 2016 by DEATHLOK

[xXHappyCrasherXX]

DE please stop u freaking already nerfed him and instead of being on of the best frames has one of the worst blade storm isn't a good name for it its just backstab because all u can do is stab 3  enemies its horrible he's just a crappy loki now with worse invisibility, teleport and he has a stupid shuriken that does nothing. 

I SAVed for so long to get ash p but then when i got good with him DE u had to nerf him and now no one ever invites me to sorties anymore. DE u made him into the wimpiest piece of crap he could possibly be and besides its way less fun to use now.

[xXHappyCrasherXX]

1 hour ago, Konachibi said:

Here's a suggestion for an improvement over Ash's Bladestorm rework:

Instead of standing still marking targets once it's activated, make it a channelling ability, similar to Ember's World On Fire or Valkyr's Hysteria.  

Whilst the ability is being channelled, Ash moves at a slightly slower movement speed, then pressing the melee attack (Default: E) on an enemy will make Ash teleport to and perform a finisher on the enemy, along with a couple of Ash clones performing the same on any enemies within a small radius (E.g/ 5 metres).  Whilst this would be similar to Ash's Fatal Teleport, the added bonus of it being a fast activating channeled skill and the addition of clones would make it appear more like an ult, along with offering more interactivity, allowing Ash to move around, swiftly remove groups of targets and avoid being locked in 'shakey ultimate cam' for more than a couple of seconds, and prevent other players being annoyed by there being a bunch of invulnerable marked targets filling the room.

 

this is a great idea i love it the current rework made him just crap