Ash Revisited Feedback Megathread

[(PSN)CoolD2108]

15 hours ago, Nazrethim said:

Prove my math is wrong with your own math.

If you are right then the numbers should back you up, regardless of mod setups.

You mean like the example i made before? Your proof is right there, don't blame me that it's going beyond ya.

And again, this is Warframe, not ninja gaiden. There's mods in this game for a reason. That's quite literally where the whole game is balanced around. No exceptations.

Edited August 15, 2017 by (PS4)CoolD2108

[Nazrethim]

2 hours ago, (PS4)CoolD2108 said:

You mean like the example i made before? Your proof is right there, don't blame me that it's going beyond ya.

And again, this is Warframe, not ninja gaiden. There's mods in this game for a reason. That's quite literally where the whole game is balanced around. No exceptations.

I play with default power stats all the time. I can easily go up to lvl150s. All of his abilities sort of work...except Blade Storm, which is simply useless by comparison because it costs too much energy for little effect and takes too long to execute. Who cares that BS hits for 10k per hit with a 3x combo multiplier when my melee is hitting for that or more at no cost?

You claim I talk in ideal situations, I don't, YOU on the other hand, talk only on ideal build, use a different build, which is a thing in a game with Mods and modding system, and then your whole argument falls apart.

I gave math in different set ups. You only mention ONE set up, the one where Blade Storm doesn't drain unfair amounts of energy, still s*cks at it's job and it's outclassed by SS and TP, but doesn't drain you dry.

You mention you have a Riven, which A) aren't balanced at all and B) not everyone has an 80% attack speed Riven, nor would be dumb enough to reroll rivens to get that just to buff failstorm, assuming it is affected of course, which chances are isn't, as Mesa's Peacemaker isn't affected either. You mention Arcane Strike, well, what if I want to use a diferent Arcane?

Who's the one doing exceptions?

Edited August 15, 2017 by Nazrethim

[(XBOX)Angryspy101]

1 hour ago, Nazrethim said:

Who cares that BS hits for 10k per hit with a 3x combo multiplier when my melee is hitting for that or more at no cost?

Kinda doubt that your melee can do 10k damage that ignores armor and procs a 4000 slash procs.

 

1 hour ago, Nazrethim said:

You claim I talk in ideal situations, I don't, YOU on the other hand, talk only on ideal build, use a different build, which is a thing in a game with Mods and modding system, and then your whole argument falls apart.

But he has a point tho. Don't you occasionally run naramon with ash? I don't see what's the problem with people running things like zenurik and a little efficiency to completely make bladestorm's energy cost nothing. The whole point of modding is to make things better.

 

1 hour ago, Nazrethim said:

You mention you have a Riven, which A) aren't balanced at all and B) not everyone has an 80% attack speed Riven, nor would be dumb enough to reroll rivens to get that just to buff failstorm, assuming it is affected of course, which chances are isn't, as Mesa's Peacemaker isn't affected either. You mention Arcane Strike, well, what if I want to use a diferent Arcane?

I do agree with you in this tho, Rivens should never determine how good anything is, but I will confirm that attack speed on Melee Rivens DO affect bladestorm. I did a test using primed fury(55% attack speed),gazal machete riven(90% attack speed), and maxed arcane strike(20% attack speed) and the results in having 1 second long finisher animations on humanoid enemies and 0.5 finisher animations on robotics and infested. It's extremely fast so yeah. I believe it works because unlike peacemaker or other exalted weapons, bladestorm doesn't scale off your weapons damage wise, so maybe DE thought wouldn't be game breaking to let bladestorm scale of riven attack speed. 

Edited August 15, 2017 by (XB1)Angryspy101

[Nazrethim]

52 minutes ago, (Xbox One)Angryspy101 said:

Kinda doubt that your melee can do 10k damage that ignores armor and procs a 4000 slash procs.

Well, I'm being unfair, I use Condition Overload, and Shattering Impact+Crit damage and sh*t. But if we are going to take everything at default values, BS is only better in damage, but the overall energy cost would make it far inferior to just using Smoke Screen and your melee weapon, assuming is a weapon of apropiate tier. Comparing default BS to a default Machete won't yield the same result as, say, a Nikana Prime or Galatine Prime.

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But he has a point tho. Don't you occasionally run naramon with ash? I don't see what's the problem with people running things like zenurik and a little efficiency to completely make bladestorm's energy cost nothing. The whole point of modding is to make things better.

There is nothing wrong with that.

The point I make is that those are mandatory and relies on broken mechanics to actually do "goodish", not "great" or "super powerful awesome", just "goodish". We should be using mods to make things better, not make bad things remotedly useful.

Can you see where I'm going?

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but I will confirm that attack speed on Melee Rivens DO affect bladestorm.

Great, you saved me the effort to get a +50% Riven and a -50% riven just to test that. Thank you :D

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I did a test using primed fury(55% attack speed),gazal machete riven(90% attack speed), and maxed arcane strike(20% attack speed) and the results in having 1 second long finisher animations on humanoid enemies and 0.5 finisher animations on robotics and infested. It's extremely fast so yeah. I believe it works because unlike peacemaker or other exalted weapons, bladestorm doesn't scale off your weapons damage wise, so maybe DE thought wouldn't be game breaking to let bladestorm scale of riven attack speed. 

That makes sense. Still, values under 1s would require a lot of enemies to make a noticeable difference, like marking close to the enemy cap.

I wouldn't like old BS returning. It was broken and overpowered (just with max effi, mind you) but it was still better than current.
For my math calculations I use both Max Effi (+175%), Default (100%) and minimum (40% achieved by combining Blind Rage -55% and Arcane Scorpion helmet -5%), 9/10 Primed Fury (+50% Attack Speed), Default Attack Speed and Spoiled Strike (-20%). I could add Arcane Strike and Quickening too, but that still moves the scales towards old and because almost nobody uses Quickening outside of boosting BS (it's a super specific niche thing) and Arcanes aren't exactly something all players have, much less equiping that specific Arcane when Trickery and Energize provide more powerful effect. I also account for 10, 18 and 50 enemies (10 as control group, 18 old BS cap and 50 current BS cap). The enemies for this are also all Grineer Butchers as control. I account for 1 and 3 marks.

The values I seek are Attack Time (how long does it take Ash to attack all those enemies) and Energy Cost per enemy (as old BS had a fixed cost, hence why I have to calculate it as 'oldBS cost divided by number of enemies attacked'). I could also calculate the damage delivered but I don't because current BS can deliver a stronger punch, but doubling or trippling the energy cost, which makes any comparison of oldBS vs 3mark current BS absolutely pointless, and since damage is pretty much the same (current has +200 more damage than old, which is great but doesn't account for a 200% increase in cost)

You can tell from all the details above that my math is much more detailed and objectively analized than a simple "well with max effi I can do well".

I disect the ability into it's component values and that only shows that current BS is objectively useless by comparison to Old BS, which is a huge nerf and totally unbalanced (because "unbalanced" applies both ways, something may be overpowered or underpowered) something our friend CoolID denies without any proof beyond the above mentioned weak argument, which doesn't even qualify as proof as it lacks any scientific back up.

In short, we need BS to be scrapped and Ash needs a new, true, ultimate ability. Be a nuke, summon or stance doesn't matter as long as it's core mechanics are well made and properly balanced.

 

Edit: Also, I used to play with Naramon, then changed to Zenurik, and nowadays I'm back to Naramon minus Shadowstep, just the +crit perk.

Edited August 15, 2017 by Nazrethim

[(PSN)LeBlingKing]

At the time I posted this, [DE]Rebecca just updated the Hydroid Feedback Topic with news that they were experimenting with Hydroid and updating him towards the Tenno's wishes. Which means that this feedback thread is officially dead, and we should all pack up our bags and go home.

[Nazrethim]

15 hours ago, (PS4)LeBlingKing69 said:

At the time I posted this, [DE]Rebecca just updated the Hydroid Feedback Topic with news that they were experimenting with Hydroid and updating him towards the Tenno's wishes. Which means that this feedback thread is officially dead, and we should all pack up our bags and go home.

You are never defeated until you decide to remain so.

[(PSN)kingbrown2012]

Thread is never dead 

[AKKILLA]

On 8/11/2017 at 10:48 PM, Nazrethim said:

It also says something that the other revisit megathreads have been somewhat forgotten, yet this one continues to pop up.

This is the reason I havent logged into Warframe over 3 months and tbh I lost all interest in Warframe and Ash period. All these concepts imo sound boring and revert back to the old Bladestorm press 4 to watch Ninja Slide Show Macro spam. Boring, Unengaging, Uninteractive, Unsynergetic, UnTeam Friendly.

I could careless about the new Warframes, Umbras, New Primes. Ash was once My obsession. That was ruined GGWP DE!

[(PSN)DBR87]

On 8/13/2017 at 10:53 PM, Nazrethim said:

Now THIS is a good nuke style Blade Storm rework idea! Well done.

A bit of nitpicking here but how would this work in Conclave? just the first uncharged part for 100 energy and damage in line with all the other ultimates?

I don't play conclave regularly so I honestly don't know...let alone play Ash in conclave. But sure, lets go with the 100 energy burst attack..

[Nazrethim]

8 hours ago, (PS4)DBR87 said:

I don't play conclave regularly so I honestly don't know...let alone play Ash in conclave. But sure, lets go with the 100 energy burst attack..

Well, right now in Conclave BS has the same sh+tty marking mode, except you need 100 energy to even activate it. When activated, each mark costs 100 or 10 if invisible. If you die while having a mark active all energy is lost, if you activate BS but your target dies before the animation plays you lose all energy. If the target dies by something that isn't you (other player, enviroment) you don't get energy refund. Most ultimates hit for 300-350 damage (AoE non-aimed radials), BS deals a single blow of 150, for comparison, EB hits just as hard per swing. You cannot jump or parkour while marking mode is active and it only has 8m range, if the opponent walks a step further away the mark is lost and refunded.

And just to drive the point of "Ash Revisited was just a nerff" the ability wasn't that useless before, it was the revisit that made it that way. Hence why I insist on everyone proposing a new ultimate to have Conclave in consideration. So far almost nobody besides myself has done so, but many have tried after I pointed out so it's kind of okay. So far the only way to properly balance it is by way of a Stance Ultimate, as it isn't a Press4toWin option in any form.

[(XBOX)YoungGunn82]

@Nazrethim this has been floating around the WF reddit forums. What is your opinion about it? Could it be a good compromise for Blade Storm  if DE is not willing to give us a proper rework? Ash could still use his wrist blades, and it would get rid of the cut scene afk mode, and marking mode. Damage could remain the same. But they would have to revert energy cost back to 100 for a full charge attack. Would also prevent spamming. What say you?

 

Edited August 17, 2017 by (XB1)FCastle74

[Mu_Gera]

The marking thing slows down the flow of the already slow bladestorm, why not fully mark an enemy as soon as you look at them? It'll at least fix the haggle of waiting to fully mark a target.

[Nazrethim]

4 hours ago, (Xbox One)FCastle74 said:

@Nazrethim this has been floating around the WF reddit forums. What is your opinion about it? Could it be a good compromise for Blade Storm  if DE is not willing to give us a proper rework? Ash could still use his wrist blades, and it would get rid of the cut scene afk mode, and marking mode. Damage could remain the same. But they would have to revert energy cost back to 100 for a full charge attack. Would also prevent spamming. What say you?

That's a good nuke style. And yes, cost is important, because while it's easy to go "meh, just use efficiency" it is NOT good design for Warframe, we have a serious problem of mandatory mods and starting to balance things around having mandatory slots is terrible and defeats the whole point of having a mod system.

This particular design could also be easily balanced for Conclave by not making it channeled at all, just release it for 100 energy and call it a day, similar to the other AoE Ultimates. At most could have a 1-2s "casting time" there to allow players to get out.

As for Rising Storm, I think it should be reverted back to it's pre-revisit state, where it would boost not just base combo counter duration, but also the extra from Body count and Drifting Contact.

[peq42]

9 hours ago, (Xbox One)FCastle74 said:

@Nazrethim this has been floating around the WF reddit forums. What is your opinion about it? Could it be a good compromise for Blade Storm  if DE is not willing to give us a proper rework? Ash could still use his wrist blades, and it would get rid of the cut scene afk mode, and marking mode. Damage could remain the same. But they would have to revert energy cost back to 100 for a full charge attack. Would also prevent spamming. What say you?

 

I liked a lot that idea.Solves the animation problem and also give us a better-balanced ash

[(PSN)Vexx757]

It`s funny how DE ask for feedback for Oberon and Hydroid and are listening but they never listened once for Ash's re-visit SMDH - _-

[Doomsknightmare]

7 hours ago, (PS4)Vexx757 said:

It`s funny how DE ask for feedback for Oberon and Hydroid and are listening but they never listened once for Ash's re-visit SMDH - _-

#MakeAshGreatAgain#

I'm surprised that this thread is still alive. Seems current Blade Storm really needs some improvement.

[(PSN)Vexx757]

Things wrong with Ash`s bladestorm

·         He can`t use bs in a team because other players kill the marked target e.g ember, mirage with simulor, banshee etc.

·         The animation is shown for every enemy marked which means bs is way longer than before.

·         Activating bs is slow because of the two stages.

·         When using bs without a melee weapon is even slower to use before the change.

·         It`s harder to activate bs on a controller than on PC.

·         One enemy mark = 1 sec 30 enemies marked = 30 secs which means bs is too long.

·         Weapons can kill better than him e.g tonkor (which for a damage dealing warframe is VERY BAD)

·         You can`t kill in a AOE anymore (can`t kill enemies behind walls)

The corrected way to fix bladestorm is to keep the old bs but with small changes;

·         Enemies that are marked can be killed by players

·         Make bs be able to kill as many enemies that are within his radius

·         If players don’t want to watch animation press 4 again to come out of it and the clones will continue killing while Ash kills other thing but you can`t use bs again until all marked enemies are dead. So the animation is still there but you have a choice whether you want to watch the animation or not. Also if a teammate is downed ash can jump out of bs and revive the downed teammate.

·          (OPTIONAL) Just to make 1^st ability better make it scale by melee mods e.g. toxic on melee weapon = toxic shuriken.

·         (OPTIONAL) Make ash be able to teleport through windows with his 3^rd ability if there is an enemy on the other side of it. (if you understand the concept of teleporting you will get this)

[Nazrethim]

21 minutes ago, (PS4)Vexx757 said:

 One enemy mark = 1 sec 30 enemies marked = 30 secs which means bs is too long.

Addition: One enemy mark = 15-45 energy (10-30 if invisible). 30 enemies marked = 450-1350 energy (300-900 if invisible) which means Max Efficiency, Rage and Zenurik are flat out mandatory, or don't use it at all, since Smoke Screen (35 energy) and Teleport (25, 12,5 with augment) and a goodish melee weapon or a very powerful gun are far superior to it.

21 minutes ago, (PS4)Vexx757 said:

·    

·         You can`t kill in a AOE anymore (can`t kill enemies behind walls)

It can kill behind walls if the enemies are already marked though. But still clunky as hell.

21 minutes ago, (PS4)Vexx757 said:

·         Enemies that are marked can be killed by players

Didn't you list this on the "things wrong" already?

21 minutes ago, (PS4)Vexx757 said:

·         Make bs be able to kill as many enemies that are within his radius

It does that to some degree, only problem is slow as snail and drains more energy than the frame has capacity for.

21 minutes ago, (PS4)Vexx757 said:

·         If players don’t want to watch animation press 4 again to come out of it and the clones will continue killing while Ash kills other thing but you can`t use bs again until all marked enemies are dead. So the animation is still there but you have a choice whether you want to watch the animation or not. Also if a teammate is downed ash can jump out of bs and revive the downed teammate.

Or cancel all marks altogether to avoid the World on Blade Storm sh+t design.

Or speed up the execution to be less of an eternal clipshow and closer to this:

Spoiler

 

21 minutes ago, (PS4)Vexx757 said:

·          (OPTIONAL) Just to make 1^st ability better make it scale by melee mods e.g. toxic on melee weapon = toxic shuriken.

Or scale off the Melee or Secondary damage mods (PPoint or HStrike)

21 minutes ago, (PS4)Vexx757 said:

·         (OPTIONAL) Make ash be able to teleport through windows with his 3^rd ability if there is an enemy on the other side of it. (if you understand the concept of teleporting you will get this)

Well, that depends on how in-story and in-game the ability works.

In-story it could be more of a super fast dash (in fact it is if Captura experiments I made are something to go by) than a proper teleport.

In-game the ability repositions Ash from his set coordinates to coordinates set behind or near the target on the reticle (it's hitscan detection), so mechanically it can't go trough walls because you don't have direct LoS with it.

[TheOnlyWarBear]

Do you think it is still possible for DE to even notice this thread anymore :(

[(PSN)vrykolacas82]

50 minutes ago, Kunsumption said:

Do you think it is still possible for DE to even notice this thread anymore :(

They have been successfully ignoring this thread for over a year so I guess they will just keep going strong and simply not listen to their players as is often the case.

Haven't played this game for months due to the lack of developer motivation to reply to this topic in a meaningful way.

[helghastgunner]

7 hours ago, Kunsumption said:

Do you think it is still possible for DE to even notice this thread anymore :(

Sorry if it derails thread but,look at snipers in this game...this thread will more than likely remain ignored

[Nazrethim]

Well, it doesn't help that, according to what I've seen on twittter, I'm nearly the only one pestering Reb, Steve, Sheldon, Scot and Megan about it.

I've even tried to contact them trough Forum PMs about Ash's situation. So far the only ones to actually bother answering were Aidan and Taylor who didn't have an answer because they don't have the "rank" to clear things up, which makes sense and I'm grateful about them responding.

 

Also doesn't help that most suggestions to rework Ash have major pitfalls in design that almost nobody thinks about before posting. Mostly the ones regarding "oh just let the clones do everything" ones.

[Hypernaut1]

15 hours ago, (PS4)vrykolacas82 said:

They have been successfully ignoring this thread for over a year so I guess they will just keep going strong and simply not listen to their players as is often the case.

Haven't played this game for months due to the lack of developer motivation to reply to this topic in a meaningful way.

Or maybe they do listen to players. Many of us like Ash and don't want his ult turned into a copy paste of another frame- like World on Fire or another lame stance.

[Nazrethim]

1 hour ago, Hypernaut1 said:

Or maybe they do listen to players. Many of us like Ash and don't want his ult turned into a copy paste of another frame- like World on Fire or another lame stance.

Very well. Now YOU give us an idea of how to solve the gordian knot of problems Ash's "ult" (that doesn't even qualify for that anymore even) has.

[Hypernaut1]

37 minutes ago, Nazrethim said:

Very well. Now YOU give us an idea of how to solve the gordian knot of problems Ash's "ult" (that doesn't even qualify for that anymore even) has.

L2play...thats how i fixed it.