Ash Revisited Feedback Megathread

[Shad0wWatcher]

4 hours ago, Rob12772 said:

Because in PvP there are no objects to teleport to. Teleport in PvP is designed that way to either:

• Escape from danger
• Teleport to a spot faster

      OR

• Surprise an enemy player

Why it's designed like that? Because in Conclave, energy is limited and Ash can only teleport a few times and can only teleport within 20 meters to his target. If Ash decides to use all his energy on Teleport, he won't have enough energy to use his other abilities. This tactic is used to escape from your enemy if your health is low or you're running out of ammo. Increasing the range would make it unbalanced because then the enemy player will have a harder time catching up with you.

It's like playing an unfair game of "Evolve" where the monster is extremely fast while 4 other players are chasing him endlessly till the monster evolves to its ultimate form and becomes unstoppable.

Nova, on the other hand, has a side-effect. If she activates wormhole, her enemies can also use it, not just her allies.

In PvE, I find Ash's Teleport ability balanced because you can "technically" teleport anywhere just like with Loki's 1st and 3rd ability.

Why not make it like PvP? Because not only his ability has a significantly increased range, but you teleport directly to your target who has a health bar.

Using Teleport by just pointing at a location without a health bar to teleport to would make it, once again, unbalanced. It would make Archwing in PoE pointless since you can teleport to a landscape instantaneously, it would make Operators useless since the ability has increased range and has instantaneous travel and it would make other frames with mobility abilities (i. e. Hydroid's Tidal Surge) laughable and slow.

Since this is a horde based game, leaving Teleport just the way it is (with some improvements like better targetting) makes it already useful since you're always encountering enemies and you can teleport directly to them. You can even teleport to your allies just to catch up with them. Besides, we already have Operators who can dash from one place to another and we have Nova who can deploy a wormhole for us everyone to use. In PvP however, it would be a nightmare to target enemy players with Ash's Teleport, so they added it as a point to wall/ground ability because not only it can be used to escape or reach places quickly, but the enemy players you encounter are fast and few.

I love how you keep mentioning how we already have Nova who can wormhole to nearly everywhere but why is that relevant when it comes to Ash tho? Actually if teleport were to function like it does in conclave then sure it would be pretty over used but that's cause it's convenient. But why should that matter? This game encourages speed running. Why else would they make it so that we can use smoke screen on the move. Teleport working like it does in conclave wouldn't be as big a problem as you make it seem, you speak of unbalance but look at warframes like Wukong who, if modded for it, can never die. Or Ember who, if modded for it, can spam World on Fire endlessly. So...that kinda invalidates your point of imbalance...sort of.

Look i like teleport the way it is. But...when in the plains...unlike in our average missions, enemies are scattered all over the field, not to mention they blend in pretty damn well at times so while this game is indeed a horde based game, it works but with the introduction of the plains, that becomes up for debate as well.

[Slayer116]

So seeing this thread still up I'd like to say a few things about ash 1. you can mark enemies up to 3 times with blade storm but when only when 1 is enough 3 takes more energy and is usually the input amount of marks depending on how careful you are actually marking. 2. After blade storm there is a brief moment animation coming out of it if an enemy deals enough damage to one shot you they will have the chance to do so and you cant do anything about it after hand before hand using smoke screen can save you IF its duration is long enough. 3. the worst thing about blade storm we have to look at the enemies we want to mark as they are killing us, some people like me result to high sensitivity to make a quick area of selection to mark enemies so we aren't sitting there as if were using a sniper trying to get more than one enemy with a single bullet. Blade storm is just very unreliable the time we mark lots of enemies a half or all of them are already dead from other team players. Some ideas that I could think of to rework the way blade storm operates is maybe enable punch through when marking enemies so its a little bit of the old version but at the same time new version I guess you can say, another way is probably by making it more like a off and on toggle power and to use blade storm instead of looking at enemies maybe make it so we jump on enemies? or are near them? something similar to that I could see working I think. right now blade storm is like teleport which teleport allows brief finishers and so its almost like blade storm is a slightly buffed version of teleport without the actual teleport and more of being invincible while using it and attacking more than one target at once. that will be all I have to say if anyone has any opinions to share go ahead and before you say anything about my grammar (yes I know my grammar is terrible and no I am not going to fix it.)

[RobRalneR]

19 hours ago, Shad0wWatcher said:

I love how you keep mentioning how we already have Nova who can wormhole to nearly everywhere but why is that relevant when it comes to Ash tho? Actually if teleport were to function like it does in conclave then sure it would be pretty over used but that's cause it's convenient. But why should that matter? This game encourages speed running. Why else would they make it so that we can use smoke screen on the move. Teleport working like it does in conclave wouldn't be as big a problem as you make it seem, you speak of unbalance but look at warframes like Wukong who, if modded for it, can never die. Or Ember who, if modded for it, can spam World on Fire endlessly. So...that kinda invalidates your point of imbalance...sort of.

Look i like teleport the way it is. But...when in the plains...unlike in our average missions, enemies are scattered all over the field, not to mention they blend in pretty damn well at times so while this game is indeed a horde based game, it works but with the introduction of the plains, that becomes up for debate as well.

Ok. I was wrong about imbalance.

The point I'm trying to make here is that changing Teleport to a ground/wall target-based ability would not only make it overused but it makes it an effortless transport ability as well.

But is the idea still good? Yes, as long as it has some sort of limitation like decreased range, increased energy cost or something like that. Can it be made in a way that makes both PvP and PvE people happy?

Well. the easy solution would be adding the teleport ability from PvP but expanding it with the PvE version. Aim at a landscape and teleport to it at a range of 20 meters, aim at an object, ally or foe and teleport to it at a range of 60 meters costing 25 energy. 

That would solve the issue, but it will create another problem. A chance to teleport where you don't want to.

Let's say you're fighting high-level enemies using the Fatal Teleport build. Enemies are in the close proximity and you're killing them one by one using Teleport's finishers. If you accidentally miss and teleport to the ground or on a wall and if you didn't activate Smoke Screen or have Arcane Trickery triggered, you'll take severe damage from enemies till you quickly teleport to another one to regain health or die because of that little mistake.

It could work as a passive, replacing bullet jump as a "teleport to a landscape ability". But that would make it kinda weird since every single frame that uses transportation abilities costs energy, whereas the passive costs nothing.

Personally, I think the ability is as good as it is now. If you become creative, remember the maps and know crate locations, you can speedrun the missions almost as fast as Nova due to Teleports range. You can still catch up with Nova by simply teleporting to her. Unfortunately, in PoE, Ash is not as flexible and fast as he is during missions, but that doesn't mean PoE is completely empty and has no objects or enemies to teleport to.

[Shad0wWatcher]

3 hours ago, Rob12772 said:

Ok. I was wrong about imbalance.

The point I'm trying to make here is that changing Teleport to a ground/wall target-based ability would not only make it overused but it makes it an effortless transport ability as well.

But is the idea still good? Yes, as long as it has some sort of limitation like decreased range, increased energy cost or something like that. Can it be made in a way that makes both PvP and PvE people happy?

Well. the easy solution would be adding the teleport ability from PvP but expanding it with the PvE version. Aim at a landscape and teleport to it at a range of 20 meters, aim at an object, ally or foe and teleport to it at a range of 60 meters costing 25 energy. 

That would solve the issue, but it will create another problem. A chance to teleport where you don't want to.

Let's say you're fighting high-level enemies using the Fatal Teleport build. Enemies are in the close proximity and you're killing them one by one using Teleport's finishers. If you accidentally miss and teleport to the ground or on a wall and if you didn't activate Smoke Screen or have Arcane Trickery triggered, you'll take severe damage from enemies till you quickly teleport to another one to regain health or die because of that little mistake.

It could work as a passive, replacing bullet jump as a "teleport to a landscape ability". But that would make it kinda weird since every single frame that uses transportation abilities costs energy, whereas the passive costs nothing.

Personally, I think the ability is as good as it is now. If you become creative, remember the maps and know crate locations, you can speedrun the missions almost as fast as Nova due to Teleports range. You can still catch up with Nova by simply teleporting to her. Unfortunately, in PoE, Ash is not as flexible and fast as he is during missions, but that doesn't mean PoE is completely empty and has no objects or enemies to teleport to.

Well of course teleport with a limit would make sense, making it range as far as your build allows you to.

But why would it matter if it's an effortless means of transportation, it's an ability that get's you from point A halfway to point B, i don't see that as a bad thing. I mean isn't that what 2 of Zephyr's skills are? So why does that matter when it comes to Ash xD.

Also you see the bit about teleporting to where you don't want to has to do with the individual player, if the player is skilled enough, 95% of the time, they will get to where they want to be. But i do see the problem tho, there's always that 5% chance of messing up but again, it'll just mean that teleport won't only be used as a means to kill enemies faster but also a way to get out of trouble more efficiently. 

The idea of making it a passive is pretty interesting,but then we'd need a replacement for Teleport and honestly...i think that would cause more trouble than it's worth. Cause first they would have to make a bullet jump that's iconic to Ash, create new animations, and then figure out how to make it effective cause 1 bullet jump can only get you so far, sure you can chain bullet jumps. I´d say it´s better to leave it as an ability, it would probably cause an uproar in the community about "fairness"...tho mostly it would be senseless bickering about how Ash suddenly became a lot more "attractive" ability wise. Tho...i would dig the idea becoming real.

[Nazrethim]

@Shad0wWatcher and @Rob12772  I have an alternate path:

First, make BS a Stance Mode.

Second, salvage the marking mode into Ash's second "passive" activated by holding RMB (block, glide or aim) at no energy cost (but being merely a 'highlights on radar' affair) and no more "multiple marks on same dude"

Third: Teleport

Spoiler

 

Fatal Teleport:

Normal: Ash teleports to the target location (default range 35m), staggering and opening nearby (3m radius) enemies to Finisher attacks and increasing Finisher damage of your next finishing move by 30% for 3s. Cost 20 energy.

Overdrive: after holding the ability (fixed at 1s with automatic release) Ash goes into a rampage, teleporting and attacking all marked enemies with his currently equiped melee weapon (essentially current blade storm) for 5 energy (10 if Blade Storm Stance is active) per enemy

Augment: Gruesome Execution

Killing an enemy with a Finisher attack after using Fatal Teleport shocks enemies, staggering them and opening them to Finisher attack. Killing a second enemy will terrify enemies causing them to flee for 3s. Overdrive skips directly to the terrify part. Shock&Fear radius is 8m

Augment: Deadly Blur

Replaces Fatal Teleport Overdrive animations with blurred dash-teleports, vastly increasing the execution speed. (While in Blade Storm mode phantom blurrs will join in to attack nearby enemies too). Also increases the execution speed of all Finisher animations by 100%

 

 

What you guys think?

[Shad0wWatcher]

2 hours ago, Nazrethim said:

@Shad0wWatcher and @Rob12772  I have an alternate path:

First, make BS a Stance Mode.

Second, salvage the marking mode into Ash's second "passive" activated by holding RMB (block, glide or aim) at no energy cost (but being merely a 'highlights on radar' affair) and no more "multiple marks on same dude"

Third: Teleport

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Fatal Teleport:

Normal: Ash teleports to the target location (default range 35m), staggering and opening nearby (3m radius) enemies to Finisher attacks and increasing Finisher damage of your next finishing move by 30% for 3s. Cost 20 energy.

Overdrive: after holding the ability (fixed at 1s with automatic release) Ash goes into a rampage, teleporting and attacking all marked enemies with his currently equiped melee weapon (essentially current blade storm) for 5 energy (10 if Blade Storm Stance is active) per enemy

Augment: Gruesome Execution

Killing an enemy with a Finisher attack after using Fatal Teleport shocks enemies, staggering them and opening them to Finisher attack. Killing a second enemy will terrify enemies causing them to flee for 3s. Overdrive skips directly to the terrify part. Shock&Fear radius is 8m

Augment: Deadly Blur

Replaces Fatal Teleport Overdrive animations with blurred dash-teleports, vastly increasing the execution speed. (While in Blade Storm mode phantom blurrs will join in to attack nearby enemies too). Also increases the execution speed of all Finisher animations by 100%

 

 

What you guys think?

From what i read... Teleport turns into current bladestorm without the wrist blades but instead uses the melee weapon you have equipped. That's pretty nifty, i wish DE did something with these ideas...the future is clouded in shadows for Ash.

[catalyst22]

8 hours ago, Nazrethim said:

First, make BS a Stance Mode.

Second, salvage the marking mode into Ash's second "passive" activated by holding RMB (block, glide or aim) at no energy cost (but being merely a 'highlights on radar' affair) and no more "multiple marks on same dude"

Third: Teleport

  Hide contents

 

Fatal Teleport:

Normal: Ash teleports to the target location (default range 35m), staggering and opening nearby (3m radius) enemies to Finisher attacks and increasing Finisher damage of your next finishing move by 30% for 3s. Cost 20 energy.

Overdrive: after holding the ability (fixed at 1s with automatic release) Ash goes into a rampage, teleporting and attacking all marked enemies with his currently equiped melee weapon (essentially current blade storm) for 5 energy (10 if Blade Storm Stance is active) per enemy

Augment: Gruesome Execution

Killing an enemy with a Finisher attack after using Fatal Teleport shocks enemies, staggering them and opening them to Finisher attack. Killing a second enemy will terrify enemies causing them to flee for 3s. Overdrive skips directly to the terrify part. Shock&Fear radius is 8m

Augment: Deadly Blur

Replaces Fatal Teleport Overdrive animations with blurred dash-teleports, vastly increasing the execution speed. (While in Blade Storm mode phantom blurrs will join in to attack nearby enemies too). Also increases the execution speed of all Finisher animations by 100%

 

I like the Teleport changes (figures considering that they are very similar to my suggestion^^). But the more i think about it, the better integrating an Acid Shells type explosion into Ash's kit sounds to me. It really solves the entire single-target assassin in a horde shooter dilemma and incentives exactly the game-play you would expect from Ash. Every time i have red suggestions for a Bladestorm exalted weapons(I assume that is what you meant by stance mode? It can't be just the overdrive change?) they invariably turn out to be extremely one-dimensional and i honestly doubt that there is much that can be done with the assassin wrist-blade theme (in Warframe).

Normal: Great it adds the free teleport functionality and raises the skill floor and interactivity of the whole teleport for hours play-style. It also probably gets rid of most of the technical problems of the current version. Personally i would raise the base range to 70 and energy cost to 30 to make it more of an assassination tool and not the standard M-O.

Overdrive: The activation is too long. I would like it to be restricted to enemies within your view(including out of line of sight) to give you more control (and thus prevent the utter annihilation of your energy pool). 

Gruesome Execution: When i started reading this i thought the shock was going to chain endlessly and that sounded pretty cool in my mind. I am not sure how to feel about fear part. Can you explain why it is there? 

Deadly Blur: Too strong. The only thing balancing CL is the animation speed. I would rather they increase the attack speed scaling on BS/Overdrive than make this an Augment. How about:

Augment: Dyed in Red

Victims of Overdrive explode, blinding enemies within 8m for 6s. Increases the energy-cost of Overdrive by 70%.

Or

Victims of Ash's finisher attacks explode, blinding enemies within 3m for 3s.

Edited December 1, 2017 by catalyst22

[Nazrethim]

6 hours ago, Shad0wWatcher said:

From what i read... Teleport turns into current bladestorm without the wrist blades but instead uses the melee weapon you have equipped. That's pretty nifty, i wish DE did something with these ideas...the future is clouded in shadows for Ash.

That is correct. The 'BS with Wristblades' would still exist, if you use Fatal Teleport Overdrive during Blade Storm Mode.

 

51 minutes ago, catalyst22 said:

I like the Teleport changes (figures considering that they are very similar to my suggestion^^). But the more i think about it, the better integrating an Acid Shells type explosion into Ash's kit sounds to me. It really solves the entire single-target assassin in a horde shooter dilemma and incentives exactly the game-play you would expect from Ash. Every time i have red suggestions for a Bladestorm exalted weapons(I assume that is what you meant by stance mode? It can't be just the overdrive change?) they invariably turn out to be extremely one-dimensional and i honestly doubt that there is much that can be done with the assassin wrist-blade theme (in Warframe).

Well, the full suggestion, which is indeed an "exalted weapon" (I use the term 'Stance Mode' because this one is centered on Combos and enhacing Finishers rather than being the E-spam Exalted Blade is).

51 minutes ago, catalyst22 said:

Normal: Great it adds the free teleport functionality and raises the skill floor and interactivity of the whole teleport for hours play-style. It also probably gets rid of most of the technical problems of the current version. Personally i would raise the base range to 70 and energy cost to 30 to make it more of an assassination tool and not the standard M-O.

Giving it that much default Range would make Power Range stat a dump stat, I'm trying to avoid having dump stats.

51 minutes ago, catalyst22 said:

Overdrive: The activation is too long. I would like it to be restricted to enemies within your view(including out of line of sight) to give you more control (and thus prevent the utter annihilation of your energy pool). 

Overdrive just attacks the enemies you marked with Ash's second passive, and they have short duration to begin with. The Overdrive also uses only 5 energy per attack (10 if BS mode is active because BS makes Finishers attack multiple targets in small radius around the main target), compare that to current BS which uses 15 energy by default per target.

51 minutes ago, catalyst22 said:

Gruesome Execution: When i started reading this i thought the shock was going to chain endlessly and that sounded pretty cool in my mind. I am not sure how to feel about fear part. Can you explain why it is there? 

You see your friends being assassinated right in front of your eyes. What do you do?

51 minutes ago, catalyst22 said:

Deadly Blur: Too strong. The only thing balancing CL is the animation speed. I would rather they increase the attack speed scaling on BS/Overdrive than make this an Augment. How about:

Perhaps, but then again CL is very strong anyway, the purpose of this is speeding up the whole affair across all weapons. If anything, it could be made so Overdrive (both regular and Deadly BLur augmented) doesn't apply CL.

51 minutes ago, catalyst22 said:

Augment: Dyed in Red

Victims of Overdrive explode, blinding enemies within 8m for 6s. Increases the energy-cost of Overdrive by 70%.

Or

Victims of Ash's finisher attacks explode, blinding enemies within 3m for 3s.

This sounds more like a replacement for 'Gruesome Execution', though the name doesn't quite fit with the actual efect.

 

If you are interested how all things work, it's all on this (surprisingly not archived yet) thread I made:

Spoiler

 

It's not exactly a wall of text, but it's a lot to read (mostly because I put lot of details so nothing is left to chance).

[catalyst22]

I am reading your Thread as i write this. I like the suggestions so far but it's just too much. With the exception of the exalted weapon and the double augments your post here reads like something that could actually see the light of day. I think there is a balance between the minimal Ash fix and all of our hopes and dreams that we should aim for ;)

1 hour ago, Nazrethim said:

Quote

Normal: Great it adds the free teleport functionality and raises the skill floor and interactivity of the whole teleport for hours play-style. It also probably gets rid of most of the technical problems of the current version. Personally i would raise the base range to 70 and energy cost to 30 to make it more of an assassination tool and not the standard M-O.

Giving it that much default Range would make Power Range stat a dump stat, I'm trying to avoid having dump stats.

Is the stagger range affected by Range? I would just use Range as dump stat and use the Zakti. I really want Teleport to be more of a mobility and assassination tool. The finisher only play-style can be realized with an augment. Another thing you should add is a slight 0.5-1m push back on arrival to make sure players can actually target who they want.

 

1 hour ago, Nazrethim said:

Quote

Overdrive: The activation is too long. I would like it to be restricted to enemies within your view(including out of line of sight) to give you more control (and thus prevent the utter annihilation of your energy pool). 

Overdrive just attacks the enemies you marked with Ash's second passive, and they have short duration to begin with. The Overdrive also uses only 5 energy per attack (10 if BS mode is active because BS makes Finishers attack multiple targets in small radius around the main target), compare that to current BS which uses 15 energy by default per target.

I am not sure how exactly you imagine that do have to aim with pinpoint accuracy to apply a mark? Is it applied immediately? Are the 7s modified by Duration? To be honest i am not confident how it would play out.

 

1 hour ago, Nazrethim said:

Quote

Gruesome Execution: When i started reading this i thought the shock was going to chain endlessly and that sounded pretty cool in my mind. I am not sure how to feel about fear part. Can you explain why it is there? 

You see your friends being assassinated right in front of your eyes. What do you do?

Well yes but based on this you can argue that every other power should cause fear. Game-play wise i do not see the appeal, but maybe i am missing something.

1 hour ago, Nazrethim said:

Quote

Augment: Dyed in Red

Victims of Overdrive explode, blinding enemies within 8m for 6s. Increases the energy-cost of Overdrive by 70%.

Or

Victims of Ash's finisher attacks explode, blinding enemies within 3m for 3s.

This sounds more like a replacement for 'Gruesome Execution', though the name doesn't quite fit with the actual efect.

They can't see because they are painted with the blood and guts of their brethren^^ It was intended as THE new 3 augment. After thinking about it i think this is better:

Dyed in Red

Every 10s the next victim of Ash's finisher attacks explodes, blinding enemies within 8m for 6s.

The other Version would probably have led to too much finisher chaining.

1 hour ago, Nazrethim said:

Quote

Deadly Blur: Too strong. The only thing balancing CL is the animation speed. I would rather they increase the attack speed scaling on BS/Overdrive than make this an Augment. How about:

Perhaps, but then again CL is very strong anyway, the purpose of this is speeding up the whole affair across all weapons. If anything, it could be made so Overdrive (both regular and Deadly BLur augmented) doesn't apply CL.

Yes it is very strong already so why almost double it's power? I really do not like being locked into animations for prolonged amounts of time maybe that is just something we feel differently about? I get that a lot of people play Ash like that. I do not think a rework should remove that play-style entirely but making it the de-facto only way to play Ash (and with 100% speed the game) is not something i'm into.

[Nazrethim]

11 minutes ago, catalyst22 said:

I am reading your Thread as i write this. I like the suggestions so far but it's just too much. With the exception of the exalted weapon and the double augments your post here reads like something that could actually see the light of day. I think there is a balance between the minimal Ash fix and all of our hopes and dreams that we should aim for ;)

I tried to aim at that sweet spot. Yes it's a lot of stuff and changes, but  pretty much everything can be done without developing any new asset. The double Augments is an idea I played with and,could be well implemented into the game for other frames, DE could just make new augments with rejected augment ideas. Also the augments for passives.

11 minutes ago, catalyst22 said:

Is the stagger range affected by Range? I would just use Range as dump stat and use the Zakti. I really want Teleport to be more of a mobility and assassination tool. The finisher only play-style can be realized with an augment. Another thing you should add is a slight 0.5-1m push back on arrival to make sure players can actually target who they want.

Yes it is. That 1m pushback would be the Stagger.

11 minutes ago, catalyst22 said:

I am not sure how exactly you imagine that do have to aim with pinpoint accuracy to apply a mark? Is it applied immediately? Are the 7s modified by Duration? To be honest i am not confident how it would play out.

Mark is applied to an enemy within 50m range you pass your aiming reticle over when you are holding RMB (so aiming, blocking or gliding counts). No, passives not affected by other stats.

The main problem was setting for the "right" duration.

11 minutes ago, catalyst22 said:

Well yes but based on this you can argue that every other power should cause fear. Game-play wise i do not see the appeal, but maybe i am missing something.

It's a form of CC. I would like if more augments currently in game did better stuff.

11 minutes ago, catalyst22 said:

They can't see because they are painted with the blood and guts of their brethren^^ It was intended as THE new 3 augment. After thinking about it i think this is better:

Dyed in Red

Every 10s the next victim of Ash's finisher attacks explodes, blinding enemies within 8m for 6s.

The other Version would probably have led to too much finisher chaining.

Now with context it makes more sense. Blinded by the blood seems plausible. I went more for the "ninjas are dreaded"

11 minutes ago, catalyst22 said:

Yes it is very strong already so why almost double it's power? I really do not like being locked into animations for prolonged amounts of time maybe that is just something we feel differently about? I get that a lot of people play Ash like that. I do not think a rework should remove that play-style entirely but making it the de-facto only way to play Ash (and with 100% speed the game) is not something i'm into.

It doesn't really double the power, just makes it faster. Plus it's an Augment, so it's entirely optional. And all augments are mutually exclusive with it's counterpart, so you can pick either CC with Gruesome Execution or faster killin with Deadly Blur (which also removes the cutscene from Overdrive, which is actually it's main function). The 100% finisher animation only affects the finisher attacks you manually use.

Funny enough, the OP (as pointed by someone else I respect) aspect of that rework is actually the Blood Splatter passive augment. I don't see it as op though.

[UnknownCoffeeRebel]

'Ello?It seems that the ash battle is still going....oh my...
My two cents are that while I never really liked the old bladestrom (it could clean a room,yes,but it wasn't really fun to witness if you weren't the said ash...and what is more,the all-around craziness is still making me dizzy) but the new bladestorm still isn't doing enough to actually...I dunno..."fix" it....

 I won't lie,Ash was one of the first if not the second frame after my starter loki that I used back then...and I adored his abilities,I still do-the QoL changes (such as mid-air smoke bomb,teleporting to every object ((though if it was a "free" teleport it would've been cooler in my opinion,with an "priority" for objects/enemies over the ground)) and the general fixes...but,well) while these changes are all fine and I adore them,bladestorm is still capable of making people sick...and while it could still clean a room,why would you use it when using teleport will get you close and your weapons can kill instantly without really making you feel like your world's spinning,all for a single point and click,much like bladestorm,except...faster. (don't answer that,I'm aware that bladestorm is bleeding powerhouse...that doesn't really change the fact that the marks feel...somewhat slow in my case...could be just me though,so don't take my word for it)

Probably something similar,if not the same has been requested somewhere in here,I'm too lazy to bother finding it,but can we get full on bladestorm rework...like an actual different ability,still using clones and the blades or "koga spikes" but without the need of being stuck in an odd camera position with no control nor popcorn while it ends?

A proposition of mine is to spawn several clones that would automatically jump for certain number of enemies depending on power range and efficiency,dealing finisher damage based on strength before disappearing,the ability not ending here-you get exalted "blades""spikes" or whatever and get free finishers and damage reduction (not invincibility as it is currently) and you get to keep it for few,short seconds after your clones are gone...That way you still get to enjoy the cool moves without the odd camera movement,and the clones,thus "ninja" theme is still there

...Or perhaps,you could fix the camera-if you use bladestorm without equipped melee,sometimes the camera will be..."normal" so to say,and that makes it generally more enjoyable user experience in my humble opinion ...

Overall,thanks for the QoL changes,bladestorm still needs working though,perhaps complete overhaul...kisses and hugs!Thanks for readin'.

Edited December 1, 2017 by UnknownCoffeeRebel

[catalyst22]

Double augments and passive are new. I assume the animations etc for the stance are pulled from other sources? Still that sounds very extensive for a frame who got 1 "rework" already. I do not see us getting much more than Volt just got to be honest. As i understand a touch up for Ash was on the table some time ago but they decided to go with something else because we do not cry enough. Lets settle for treatment that is comparable to other frames first we can still push for more after

Spoiler

30 minutes ago, Nazrethim said:

57 minutes ago, catalyst22 said:

I am reading your Thread as i write this. I like the suggestions so far but it's just too much. With the exception of the exalted weapon and the double augments your post here reads like something that could actually see the light of day. I think there is a balance between the minimal Ash fix and all of our hopes and dreams that we should aim for ;)

I tried to aim at that sweet spot. Yes it's a lot of stuff and changes, but  pretty much everything can be done without developing any new asset. The double Augments is an idea I played with and,could be well implemented into the game for other frames, DE could just make new augments with rejected augment ideas. Also the augments for passives.

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Is the stagger range affected by Range? I would just use Range as dump stat and use the Zakti. I really want Teleport to be more of a mobility and assassination tool. The finisher only play-style can be realized with an augment. Another thing you should add is a slight 0.5-1m push back on arrival to make sure players can actually target who they want.

Yes it is. That 1m pushback would be the Stagger.

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I am not sure how exactly you imagine that do have to aim with pinpoint accuracy to apply a mark? Is it applied immediately? Are the 7s modified by Duration? To be honest i am not confident how it would play out.

Mark is applied to an enemy within 50m range you pass your aiming reticle over when you are holding RMB (so aiming, blocking or gliding counts). No, passives not affected by other stats.

The main problem was setting for the "right" duration.

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Well yes but based on this you can argue that every other power should cause fear. Game-play wise i do not see the appeal, but maybe i am missing something.

It's a form of CC. I would like if more augments currently in game did better stuff.

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They can't see because they are painted with the blood and guts of their brethren^^ It was intended as THE new 3 augment. After thinking about it i think this is better:

Dyed in Red

Every 10s the next victim of Ash's finisher attacks explodes, blinding enemies within 8m for 6s.

The other Version would probably have led to too much finisher chaining.

Now with context it makes more sense. Blinded by the blood seems plausible. I went more for the "ninjas are dreaded"

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Yes it is very strong already so why almost double it's power? I really do not like being locked into animations for prolonged amounts of time maybe that is just something we feel differently about? I get that a lot of people play Ash like that. I do not think a rework should remove that play-style entirely but making it the de-facto only way to play Ash (and with 100% speed the game) is not something i'm into.

It doesn't really double the power, just makes it faster. Plus it's an Augment, so it's entirely optional. And all augments are mutually exclusive with it's counterpart, so you can pick either CC with Gruesome Execution or faster killin with Deadly Blur (which also removes the cutscene from Overdrive, which is actually it's main function). The 100% finisher animation only affects the finisher attacks you manually use.

Funny enough, the OP (as pointed by someone else I respect) aspect of that rework is actually the Blood Splatter passive augment. I don't see it as op though

 

Staggers are generally shorter though? If this one has more distance that's fine.

Do you mark enemies hiding behind other enemies? Do you get the mark immediately? Considering that it is always on i imagine that balancing between a short enough marking process to be useful and one long enough to be controllable will be a tight-rope act.

I agree that Augments could be better i just think that fear is more of a downside than something you would actually want that's all.

The reason is said it is almost doubling CL in power it that CL is currently held back by three things 1. Moving between targets 2. Zakti reload and 3. The actual animation. And the first two take a relatively small % of the total time so cutting 3 in half is similar to doubling (maybe more like +70%) its power (or efficiency, kills/s, whatever you want to call it).

Do not get me wrong your stance sounds really cool but it just seems like too much.

Spoiler

I do not like Combo 1. Make the charged attack a finisher instead?

What do you think about my idea? Making Bladestorm a debuff  that triggers an Acid Shells like explosion on death? Flavor text would be something like:

Ash primes the enemy with countless blades. On his targets death they are shot out cutting all those around it into pieces.

 

[Shad0wWatcher]

So @Nazrethim...to add to your stance ability...why not have it so that instead of Ash going on a rampage, have it so that Ash switches to using more ninja tools based on your own inputs, like when you block another weapon shows up.

- Charge attack summons a Kusarigama with the chain and whatnot, or it could leave the sickle out and just have the chain that just pulls in enemies.

- Normal melee would just be a katana...or skana...i think a skana is a bit more accurate

- All his stealth kills are done with his wrist blades instead of the melee weapons. Make em cinematic or keep em simple, either is fine with me.

Also visually you'd just have the smoke around you that is currently visible when in marking mode

Something like that...idk...i just came up with this 5 minutes ago xD. Making it an idea that's....not all that fleshed out...eh...just my 2 cents...i guess.

[Nazrethim]

1 hour ago, catalyst22 said:

Double augments and passive are new.

"new" in the sense it's not something in-game, but it's very doable. Mutually exclusive mods are already a thing, Warframe specific-mods are a thing too. Just put the two together and you get double mutually exclusive augments

1 hour ago, catalyst22 said:

I assume the animations etc for the stance are pulled from other sources?

Yes, mostly pulling from Claw, Sparring and Spinning Needle animations.

1 hour ago, catalyst22 said:

Still that sounds very extensive for a frame who got 1 "rework" already. I do not see us getting much more than Volt just got to be honest. As i understand a touch up for Ash was on the table some time ago but they decided to go with something else because we do not cry enough.

I know. But the main problem with the initial revisit (that isn't a rework as outside of the straight nerf to BS it didn't do anything) was lack of organized feedback and DE being clueless of how to solve the problems.

1 hour ago, catalyst22 said:

Lets settle for treatment that is comparable to other frames first we can still push for more after

It's actually very simple to fix Ash's issues:

-Shuriken: throws a third, non-guided Shuriken.

-SScreen: makes a lingering AoE smoke cloud which applies a debuff to enemies and allow allies to get invi when they pass trough and SShadow is equiped.

-Teleport: Just bake the automatic Finisher and allow it to be used on all objects, not just the ones with healthbars.

-Blade Storm: change it from a toggle cost-per-mark to a 6-10s Marking Mode that uses 100 energy on activation and individual marks no longer having a cost. Make the number of marks be dependant on ability level (so at rank 30 it applies 3 marks at once) or remove the multimark entirely. Make clones assist Ash, so per cutscene 3-4 enemies are attacked. BS would be unleashed either whne the timer runs out or the player press 4 again.

Augments:

SShuriken: make it also reduce Shields.

SShadow: make it be affected by range.

RStorm: change it from "+100% combo duration" to "+10s combo duration" to make it worth using.

Zip-zap termine. Ash fix'ed.

1 hour ago, catalyst22 said:

Do you mark enemies hiding behind other enemies? Do you get the mark immediately? Considering that it is always on i imagine that balancing between a short enough marking process to be useful and one long enough to be controllable will be a tight-rope act.

Same as current marking mode, only triggered by holding RMB instead of activating an ability.

1 hour ago, catalyst22 said:

The reason is said it is almost doubling CL in power it that CL is currently held back by three things 1. Moving between targets 2. Zakti reload and 3. The actual animation. And the first two take a relatively small % of the total time so cutting 3 in half is similar to doubling (maybe more like +70%) its power (or efficiency, kills/s, whatever you want to call it).

We already do that stacking mods, so I don't see the issue. I don't believe Ash should be defined by CL, specially considering he isn't the only frame able to use it.

1 hour ago, catalyst22 said:

Do not get me wrong your stance sounds really cool but it just seems like too much.

It's actually no different from any other stance. It just seems "Too much" because the other "exalted weapons" don't really have combos worth using, while this one is designed around each combo having a purpose. That's more a problem of the other exalted weapons really.

1 hour ago, catalyst22 said:

What do you think about my idea? Making Bladestorm a debuff  that triggers an Acid Shells like explosion on death? Flavor text would be something like:

Ash primes the enemy with countless blades. On his targets death they are shot out cutting all those around it into pieces.

 

I like it. Ninjas are crafty killers.

 

Also, @Shad0wWatcher you seem to have an idea in my. Please flesh it out. I always encourage people with interesting ideas to give thme more detail.

In fact I've been trying to replicate the rework idea I posted in other game editors. So far I managed to get the SScreen working on W3 and SCII, mostly because it's damn easy to do. I've been toying with Unreal Engine and CryEngine, but nothing worthy yet as I'm just learning to use them for now.

Reading on a Forum thread is all nice and dandy, but can't replace the actual feeling of play.

[Yperkeimenos]

Lets face it, ash was one of the most favoured and played frames. These changes obviously didn't satisfy the player base and it's time for DE to have a second look at one of the oldest and most loved warframes. However i don't think they will ,at least in the immediate future, seems to me like they have other more important things to do.... ahem like fishing if you get my meaning.

[Shad0wWatcher]

23 hours ago, Nazrethim said:

Also, @Shad0wWatcher you seem to have an idea in my. Please flesh it out. I always encourage people with interesting ideas to give thme more detail.

In fact I've been trying to replicate the rework idea I posted in other game editors. So far I managed to get the SScreen working on W3 and SCII, mostly because it's damn easy to do. I've been toying with Unreal Engine and CryEngine, but nothing worthy yet as I'm just learning to use them for now.

Reading on a Forum thread is all nice and dandy, but can't replace the actual feeling of play.

It's just fun to contribute in some way man. Even if it does fall on deaf ears.

Edited December 2, 2017 by Shad0wWatcher

[(XBOX)Natfrog123]

I just want the old Blade Storm back. Period. Get rid of the invulnerable enemies but bring it back 100% exactly how it was. press one button and the rest is simulated. Just like every other skill in the game. Or add markers to every other frames 4th ability. Just make it consistant so the game is either fast completely or slow as balls completely but I can promise you DE that NO ONE WANTS SLOW.

[Nazrethim]

14 hours ago, Shad0wWatcher said:

It's just fun to contribute in some way man. Even if it does fall on deaf ears.

True. In fact that rework is like 60% contribution from other players. I just laid out a skeleton.

[Batwing]

More of my rough warframe ideas.

Wanted to throw in some stuff that popped into my head for the thread.

1.Shuriken - Quickly throw 3 shuriken to the closest enemy with 100% slash proc have it scale off his melee weapons damage maybe, what i thought it really cool though is have it so if you hold it down you throw a massive shuriken that maybe travels slowly in a ark maybe 20m out and you control it with your cross-hair moving down enemies with a giant shuriken saw blade.

2.Smoke Screen - Make it so ash actually becomes smoke and can travel through the air not being able to be detected by enemies and make it a toggle ability.He can't melee it's purely for mobility and as like a life saver. Just poof away. If shuriken is used while in smoke form passing through enemies causes slash proc.

3.Teleport - Make it free aim with a smoke effect stunning an enemy if they're near him, also make it usable while in smoke form so he teleports out of smoke form making the area of effect bigger.

4. Blade Storm - Make it scale off melee and bring up combo counter also make it so he has a dual Katar type exalted weapon with guaranteed slash proc on every hit that stacks.If he attacks an enemy un-alerted it's just an instant kill.He can use the smoke ability while using blade storm to get the ability to teleport to enemies by just looking at them and pressing e to do a special execute on them but it increases the energy consumption.

Just spit balling probably needs to be nit picked a bit but just wanted to throw some more ideas out there.

Would be cool to see blade storm not as a cut scene with more control over it.

[blaes]

On 11/27/2017 at 7:07 PM, Nazrethim said:

As I said many times, Pre-nerf Blade Storm was really balanced and well designed.

No and no. It was neither balanced nor well designed.

not balanced : It was weak (and still is). It had high damage per hit, true, but it took a long time to apply all those hits, meaning that the actual damage over time wasn't that great, and ash was animation-locked during that time, preventing him from doing anything else (like more damage or CC or whatever).

not well designed : it locked the ash player for inordinate amounts of time from actually doing anything. It made enemies invulnerable, messing with other players' actions.

19 hours ago, (Xbox One)Natfrog123 said:

I just want the old Blade Storm back. Period. Get rid of the invulnerable enemies but bring it back 100% exactly how it was.

Absolutely not. It suffered from crippling, debilitating problems, let's not get that back in the game. The current version isn't much better, it's it's still at least marginally better.

The main problem with the current version is that once you've selected your targets, you're still locked in an animation (even if it's been sped up, if you add the time spent marking targets the total is too long).

An easy fix would be to either :

- send clones (the same it uses since forever) and only clones to attack all marked targets at once when you release the ability, while keeping (or increasing a bit) current damage

- or send clones attack everything you see when you use the ability (no need to mark anything) with lower than current damage

- or make the ability channeled to summon a given number of clones that continuously attack any and everything around ash, with damage per hit to be tweaked depending to the number of clones (if there are few clones, damage per hit should be close to current damage, if there are a lot of clones, it should be lower)

[Nazrethim]

1 hour ago, blaes said:

No and no. It was neither balanced nor well designed.

Compared to current one (though current one has the dubious achievement of being worse than closed beta blade storm)

1 hour ago, blaes said:

not balanced : It was weak (and still is). It had high damage per hit, true, but it took a long time to apply all those hits, meaning that the actual damage over time wasn't that great, and ash was animation-locked during that time, preventing him from doing anything else (like more damage or CC or whatever).

The damage was fine actually. It was boosted by combo counter and was Finisher. It only dealt scratch damage to units protected by Disruptor/Healer ancients and/or Eximus Units. The hits (18 total) were split between Ash and his 3 clones, unless the enemy forces were reduced to 1 dude in which case Ash would personally attack him until the 18 attacks were over. It also served as a sort of CC by interrupting and locking enemies in finisher animations (4 at any given time).

1 hour ago, blaes said:

not well designed : it locked the ash player for inordinate amounts of time from actually doing anything. It made enemies invulnerable, messing with other players' actions.

That only happened if you were a braindead spammer who used it on everything. Tactical use and Medium awareness reduced that a lot. You first had to get rid of units you would get stuck on (like Eximi units) by using your guns, melee or other abilities. Then Blade Storm to clean up the grunts. Enemies made invulnerable wasn't a bad thing either unless, again, you got stuck on an Eximus unit you shouldn't have bladestormed. Think how Limbo is either a godlike support to the team or a dead weight for the team, depending if the player is skilled/smart or not.

It was mindless stupid spam the problem, which is player behavior.

The ability wasn't perfect, but it had a job and did it well, assuming the user wasn't an idiot. Truth be told most were (hence why they built for Range, increasing the chances of getting stuck on eximi)

[blaes]

It routinely locked you for 4 seconds, no user interaction possible. Without eximi or ancients. That is not a "mindless spam problem". That is just some bad design.

And as I said, the damage per hit was high, yes, but on a limited number of targets (18 max), over a sizeable amount of time. 18 hits over 4s, that's 4.5 hits|kills per second. Completely subpar for a damage frame for 95% of the game.

The current version isn't much better, but at least you have some measure of control and though you still get locked in animation, there is some interaction while you're marking the targets. But it's still way too long and should be changed to be an instant cast with either instant or continuous effect (see my previous post, or the myriad suggestions that have been made to turn it into an exalted weapon or other reworks).

I am not satified with the current version, but imo, it's not quite as bad as the previous one.

[Scytze]

Smoke shadow doesnt deserve to be augment, specialy how Ash is right now. Range to stealth your allies is WAY too short, if someone even thinks about pressing bullet jump they will get out of range. Buff it or finaly and yes finaly make it normal feature of skill and just make new augment.

[Shad0wWatcher]

3 minutes ago, Scytze said:

Smoke shadow doesnt deserve to be augment, specialy how Ash is right now. Range to stealth your allies is WAY too short, if someone even thinks about pressing bullet jump they will get out of range. Buff it or finaly and yes finaly make it normal feature of skill and just make new augment.

What would a new augment be tho? Enemies choking on the smoke?...That'd fit 

[Scytze]

8 minutes ago, Shad0wWatcher said:

What would a new augment be tho? Enemies choking on the smoke?...That'd fit 

I feel fart jokes incoming.
But yeah that or perhaps short timed blind.